Amy broken ?

[tresto]

So, a very interesting discussion has started.
Basically sword lord says Amy is more broken than SC3 X, and Belial seems to agree.

I have copy/pasted the parts I found most relevant (BTW Alex.J wasn't replying to Belial but it's on topic)

there is noooooooo way amy is better than sc3 X. Most amy can do is put you in a mixup most of the time. Ok thats good, but guess right when shes going to go low, she gets punished, not to mention shes pretty steppable.

X had SAFE 1a which did about 30 damage AND it was -1 or 2 on block, so really she had mixups on BLOCK. Had decent range too. 3A had lots of range. And BOTH of these lows covered step pretty well, AND they had good advantage on hit. She had 66a+b which can be canceled and went around at least 80-90% of the moves in the game. Her 2 5 B launcher which was safe for the most part dealt at least 70 damage, around 80 on counter hit. And she had more stuff I don't even wanna get into.

In my eyes Amy is more broken than SC3 X b/c Amy basic mechanics are imbalanced, SC3 X was overpowered but not broken. In SC4 there are only two broken characters Amy and Hilde

The thing about X in 3 is she never lost momentum even on - frames. She had good evasion moves like 8k, 44b, and 66a+b. Amy's evasion moves are jokes, her 44b barely avoids anything, and her 4a does have uses but it is nothing compared to 66a+b. 66A+B could be canceled, was a mid, teleported around things and 4a is a high, can't be canceled, and avoids some things. How can these be compared?

I am very interested in why you feel that Amy is broken compared to other top characters. Is it because of the 50/50 ?

Here is a translation about what has been said on FR forum this week :

Other characters I know about have a "real" 50/50 guess (mid/low that knocks down on neutral in both cases) without requiring stance shifting
- Mitsurugi (2KB)
- Yoshimitsu (iFC3K)

From stance only :
Voldo
- i21 BS1A is unblockable on reaction by every person I've met except 2-3 (eg. FR player Pantocrator)
- MCHT 66/A+K
I won't include CR B because even if it knocks down, he's at -11 on hit.

no other char has such a good pay off KD, to me she's almost as broken as hilde. Not just that, she has awesome tools for KD.
against all that chars you named if you guess correctly at least one option you get lots of damage and even if they are sucessful their wake ups will end at some point AND are interruptible. So the mix up is first they have to set it up so you fear to interrupt, THEN they can mix up. Amy is not like that. Unfortunately everybodys experience is limited to whom they have played, but I can tell you RTD and Kayane saw MY amy play, and they were very surprised at how good it was and I dont even use amy, I just copy some edge and kingusha patterns. If you were to play them, who really use her 50/50 to the max , you'd realize how hopeless and retarded this character is.

My turn:
I agree that Amy's from the ground pressure is very good. Her mix-up too.

But :
- 2B+K has very short range and is very steppable. And even rollable on the ground. It's also unsafe (-19). So if it's blocked on neutral, wakeup or whatever, it gets punished. I believe that most characters can do decent amount of damage from FC with 19 frames. I agree RCC stuff is pretty hard though, but doable. Eg. Mitsu can do 63B 236B 1A for >50dmg.

- 33B is quite steppable too, and the combo leaves the opponent too far to do 2B+K, and Amy can get cought with CH if you run to the opponent to apply oki mixup. Actually this was even one of the key weaknesses Kira used to win vs. me with Cervantes (WS A if even I ran to him on wakeup). Can bet just-ukemied too

about the other mid launchers :
- 3BA is mostly unsafe against a good opponent because he can just jump
- 66B very steppable and can get JU to reduce damage (6:6B->JU : 20dmg instead of 54 for full combo)


So what did I miss ? How do you apply wakeup pressure after 33B combo since you're too far to do 2B+K right away ?

 

[Belial]

I am well aware of Amy weaknesses, trust me. Amy is steppable however if used properly you cannot reliably step her run up mix. if you just 8wr if amy does 666~G~2B+K for ex it will catch if she runs up and steps it will hit, 3BA will hit you out of step and 8wr alot if opp knows when to do it. you can only step it reliably if some kind of situation is set for ex 6BB hit. But smart opp will get around it too.

thing she can counter everthing within the limited set of options, and if she guesses correctly she gets KD. along with some good damage.

you just have to stop using crap moves like 1A, A+K , 3A etc and focus on your 50/50 , MAKE it unsteppable. Trust me its possible, I too, once considered a step and step~G a perfect tool vs Amy, once my opponents stopped trying to turn the tables with classic frameadvantage, and sacrificed adv in favor of spacing it stopped working. And once your opp starts interrupting 66B him for 70 dmg and do a wake up.
post 6BB hit 236BBBB isnt steppable. at all. you opp has to be stuck in place if he is, you get a free mix. EACH part of this mixup (236BBBB , or 236, 3BA or 2B+K) KD's and starts wake up game. its the same with everything else. yes you do risk in the process but the pay off KD is WAY TOO HIGH. once you realize it and stop doing moves that dont KD and try to think how to create a situation to KD an opponent you will come closer to unleashing hell on your opponent.

now on wakeups most of the time you cant step, when your opp can get up and step just substitute 2B+K with a throw or run up like I said before and space to make your mix unsteppable, chose depending on situation. YES you can roll some stuff . ocassionally you can sideroll 2B+K to the side, or you can backroll it.
you can sideroll 33B to the left and 66A+B to the right. but even when you sideroll youre facing a Backturned amy. which means the risk of B+K. from here on she can. BT B+K , turn round aGI, turn, mixup. again EACH part of this deals good dmg, KD's and of course allows her ground game to go on. guess incorrectly and you're fucked up, guess correctly, how much do you get off while rising move fast enough to beat BT B+K? (keep in mind, that post some moves you roll BT B+K is NOT interruptible at all, can you even react to this?).

Other characters has nothing even comparable to this. those characters cannot kill you without you getting up from the ground UNABLE to do ANYTHING but guard low or mid UNTILL you guess correctly. With other characters you can apply your characters moves, strong sides, counters, but with AMY you first have to guard low or mid correctly then try to play your character not a rag doll rolling on the floor trying to escape another KD loop.

 

[tresto]

I never thought that step~G was the perfect tool vs Amy (she has two good antistep moves that come out fast, 3A/1A). Just that I have to get my opponent to "stay in place" before I can apply the 50/50.

The BT B+K setup on wakeup to beat rolling is very interesting.
I will experiment with this and tell you how it goes.

The CH 66B is something I haven't been using at all. Actually it's nearly only for punishment.
Yet I can do 6:6B JF consistently.
I guess that as soon as your wakeup is a bit far, it becomes a mind game between mid at a distance or waiting for the mid/low on wakeup.

I think the key point is "sacrifice advantage for position" combined with "always go for knock down"

Thanks for your insights

 

[Tiamat]

just wanted to point out that when you read that Belial is saying he thinks SC4 Amy is cheaper than SC3 X, he is probably referring to SC3 PAL/JP X, not the SC3 US one which was much stronger (unless they played the US version in Russia for some reason)

as for the topic, amy is not broken she is just very overpowered. she is too fast and has retarded okizeme. I'd say amy okizeme is best in the game hands down

 

[lobo]

yeah tiamat hit it. amy may be better than other versions of sc3 x...i doubt it but maybe. not the american version, though. no way. maybe it is just thuggish that is broken....

 

[ZOMBIEBEAR666]

I don't understand why SC3 X would be a problem... She's in SC3... lqtm...
How she stacks up to Kilik, Ivy, Hilde (in SC4) would be a better way to despute if she is broken...
Personally, I think she's right up there with "The Big Three"... (now "The Big Four")...
(and her 2B+K is -18 on grd I'm pretty sure)

 

[CNP]

2B+K is -16 on block. Yeah, more broke than you thought. 1A is -19. Still not really broke though. Just really good.

Tresto: If Amy ends the 33B combo with 236KK, she's in position for 2B+K. I'm not sure what 33B combo you're talking about.

 

[Something-Unique]

Amy is not broken in the slightest nor is she over powered and contrary to the above Amy is weak to Step even considering the statement made by Belial above. All that amounts to is differences in timing to attempt to negate step.

Step eats Amy for lunch and spits her back out washed up. Its her oki where the problem comes in and I had this whole week leading up to GU to understand it in depth and u can negate her 50/50 pressure on wakeup.

The results payed off tremendously against Thugish in GU and RTD also stepped Thugish all over the place as well in the loser's finals. She has no answer for step besides 1A and 3A and those are nothing to be concerned about in the slightest.

CNP:

1A = -21-Frames cause Kilik i21-Frames WsB punishes it.
2B+K = -18-Frames or more because Kilik i17-Frames Fc3B punishes it.

For general reference although u can't keep Amy out 100% but u can keep her out of 2B+K range learned this in practicing this week as well since I borrowed a PS3.

 

[CNP]

Hmm. I don't know why I thought her frames were better than they are. Gotta go test/practice some punishers for that then.

 

[Ring]

I think she has some more "anti step tools", a lot of her stuff cover one side, like 33B.

he is probably referring to SC3 PAL/JP X, not the SC3 US one which was much stronger (unless they played the US version in Russia for some reason)

Were there any other differences between them except for 66A+B~G cancel and 33B combo? I don't know, but the lack of "teleport" cancel in PAL/JP gave her 110dmg combo after NH 33B, seemed a fair trade, lol.

 

[MONEYMUFFINS]

The results payed off tremendously against Thugish in GU and RTD also stepped Thugish all over the place as well in the loser's finals. She has no answer for step besides 1A and 3A and those are nothing to be concerned about in the slightest.

Saying she's not broken because 1 character (who's considered the best overall, and has godly step) can step her well, doesn't mean much. How about the other 20+ characters? Also, people think that being unable to immediately counter step, like with your examples of Amy 3A and 1A, means she does not have an answer. Actually, that is false because there can be other options if you delay the timing, then use another attack to counter/KND. This has proven true for me in the past, and I will test again with different character moves. You can even lead to options like tech traps. That will be an answer, IMO. After all, nobody should be able to do any one thing for the entire match.

 

[Tiamat]

I think she has some more "anti step tools", a lot of her stuff cover one side, like 33B.



Were there any other differences between them except for 66A+B~G cancel and 33B combo? I don't know, but the lack of "teleport" cancel in PAL/JP gave her 110dmg combo after NH 33B, seemed a fair trade, lol.

I think there were some safety changes or something but I don't remember specifically. And no, I don't think that's a fair trade. 66A+B~G was just way too hard to deal with for most characters.


Also...the way I use the word "overpowered" basically is just what is sounds like. High tier characters in any game are overpowered simply because they are not mid tier characters. They are overpowered simply by being better than average and below average characters.

 

[Something-Unique]

Of course results from step apply to characters that can hurt her bad for it and because there are more than enough characters who can that eliminates the fact that she is broke or overpowered. Hilde-Kilik-Setsuka-Cervantes (after seeing for the first time ever from Hates himself 3B into iGDR which I have seen no other Cervy do ever in this game) are just some.

Then there are characters who can compete with her who do not even need step like Voldo who is just all around phenomenal. You can't be broke or overpowered when there are so many characters who can either compete with u evenly or beat u not even considering the fact that she has major weaknesses like step more than any other character besides Raphael and her damage output is not that great. Her damage comes from oki and u can even limit that fairly in more than respectable fashion.

I still stand by the comment though that unlike other characters she has nothing threatining that can negate step since I personally ran down her entire movelist as well and know what tracks to what side etc. that is practical.

The tools that people complain about and make Amy such a problem are.....

3B/3BA
33B
66A+B
2B+K

~which all lead into her phenomenal oki.

Everything else in her moveset are just general decent tools.....

6BB
1A
3A

Correct me if i'm missing anything else thats threatening.

 

[Ahriman]

SC3 X is far away broken than amy. For those who forgotts :

66K i13 kill step and backdash, gives adv
33B: post step 1/3 of life punisher
1A: give frame trap FC3B/throw on hit, and excellent pressing with WSK on block
11K: i17 low: KND on neutral
AA: i10 ....
bK: RO if you stay on the ground
[A+K]: follow the ennemy, from my memory the gard crush offers +8 on block
etc.
66A+B: Shoryuken.

Amy is just a childish gothic slut, X was a godess walking on the Sc3 world, this thread is nonsense

 

[tresto]

Thanks Ahriman !

I couldn't believe Amy was broken ! OK I'm not a very good player (my defense is weak), but I still think I would be winning more if she was broken ...

Actually I feel that several characters are more powerful :
- Hilde for obvious reasons
- Voldo : he has everything, range, mixups, damage, evade, punish, CF, ...
- Setsuka : so strong, so hard to handle
- Kilik : range, FOTD, Asura, WS B, 1B, ...

And that she's on equal ground with several others (Cass, Asta, Ivy, Yoshi, Cerv)

 

[thugish_pond]

What Belial said was right, I made some bad mistakes at GU, but even then I know i'm not using her to her full potential. Belial and I discussed some things before and overall I can tell that i'm not at that level yet.

 

[Belial]

S-U of course amy is steppable, she can also be GI-ed etc but all of this is a defencive measure which like you mentioned will come down to difference in timings, what is real, however is the risk reward of her options. When she willingly submits to randomness of timings , she will still come out on top 90% of the time. b/c reward of succesful hit is tremendous. Each KD averages to at least half your lifebar. And come to think of it, how high is her risk against most characters on this options?
Add up the difference in execution difficulty, pressure etc .. I'm playing amy quite a lot, I still do a lot of mistakes when playing her. I dont think anybody can play perfectly agianst her ever.
I think a character is broken when a certain aspect of his game is so overpowering it negates possible advantages of other characters. that is exactly the way amy and hilde are. It doesnt really matter which character Amy plays against or hilde plays against, you can allow yourself to not know opponents character at all and it wouldnt make a lot of difference in the end.

 

[ZOMBIEBEAR666]

To add onto her 2B+K, not only is it i18, it hardly has any visual cues to let you know it's coming, it seems like a stab to the feet at lightspeed... I'm almost certain its -18 on grd, definatley not -16, Algol's FC 2B can still hit her on grd afterwards at i17 and Astaroth's FC 3B wil connect in the same way at i18... Amy will block Algol's WR B (i19)...
Amy's 1A is i17, -1 on hit and CH, on grd its -20 to -21 depending on range, it TC's [9-17], and leaves the opponent ~FC on hit... Her 3A is i15, -9 on grd and +5 on hit and CH, it also TC's [9-15]... Her auto-GI parrys are off-the-wall too, along with her A+K TJ'ing stance, in short it's complete BS (not Blind Stance ~lol)...

 

[tresto]

About 2B+K :
- it's impossible to react to, you can only guess.
- i19, not i18. Mitsu's 2KB is i18.
- it's -19, actually astaroth can also connect bullrush as punishment (i17 + 1 frame to recover from crouch).

Definitely her best move along with her safe mid launchers.
B+K auto-gi is also pretty good but it has major weaknesses too, try to play Amy and you'll see...
Actually her launcers and 2B+K are only "powerful" moves she has anyway, all the rest is kinda weak ...

1A is no more than another version of any other character's 2K : 2 frames slower, a couple points damage better, -1 on hit instead of -2 (but still -1 on CH), step killer and ... very unsafe instead of just slightly unsafe.

3A has awful range and damage, doesn't have any "stun on CH" or whatever properties. It's nothing next to a real step killer such as Ivy's WP 3A or Mitsu's b:A.

 

[Something-Unique]

Belial:

Amy can only apply dangerous mixups within the absolute closest range. I'm like the marter for stating that no one in this game can keep Amy out but after some thorough testing to prep for GU since I had a PS3 this entire week I practiced against her at least 48 hours out of 5 days. She can be kept out of 2B+K range which leaves her with no continuous mixup like I thought she had before. Because of that she is no longer a major threat even with her safe mids that crush highs. Without that mixup even if she lands said moves her damage output isn't amazing and in reality average. Her throw game is probably the weakest in the entire game.

The threat from Amy is a result from oki. That is her greatest strength and has always been the problem in the past for me because I didn't understand how to negate it in the best possible form until this week when I tested. Her oki is still hot but I never applied the tekken terms to her game and the funniest thing is I utilize Steve and his oki is the bane of alot of characters existence in tekken. The same rules apply to Amy that apply to characters in tekken with insane oki. Because getting up places u right back into her dangerous 50/50 mixup the idea is not to get up and take the chip damage the same way u would in tekken against characters like Steve and immediately tech or in some cases just rolling to her side with proper timing in consideration will evade her oki game. 66A+B utilized as wakeup game is seeable on reaction and blocking it places her directly in front of u at -13-Frames which is one of the few punishable moves she has and happens to be the one move that tracks grounded.

Thugish may not be utilizing Amy to her greatest potential but seeing how this man has slaughtered me 7 times resulting from tournaments with this bitch and me finally understanding her to be honest I don't think nothing will change. When the vids from GU get put up i'm gonna link them here to show the difference in strats and execution within those vids in comparison to vids from Nats with the same issues he used to give me in the past or Amy in general. It is a world of difference.

Last but not least Hilde and Amy are not even remotely in the same league in the slightest. I still think Hilde is not in a league of her own and more than manageable but she is just so strong in almost every way that its almost impossible to keep up with her without doing inhuman shit. Hint- GI'ing charges on reaction which no one else does but me. In general u really do have to play a perfect game against her when there are ringouts involved even though thats not neccesarily the case if u get my drift.

Trust me Amy's mixups and oki may be annoying but they fail in comparison to mixups and oki from way more dangerous situations from games like tekken in which u lose half life or more which Amy does not do. You can see the tekken merge with Soul Calibur with characters like her and Hilde. Its no different.