Akire
[10] Knight
Cassy's 4BB:A can't be aGi by C3A to. You can confirm it to also to do 50 dmg
Stop making match-up charts!
- Thread starter MONEYMUFFINS
- Start date
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Malek - very good points about Hilde. I admit I havent payed enough attention and didnt think of specific strategy this characters can employ, looks pretty potent as long as people really know how to fight hilde. You got me convinced.
malek
[10] Knight
No problem.
By the way, I just checked and Hilde-Yunsung is 8-2. So no problem.
Yota who plays both Hilde and Yunsung, give some good talked about this match up and helped to put it this way.
Character that have 3-7 against Hilde are:
Amy,
Asta (no DOOM, 4-6 maybe but Saitoh was the one to decide the final score in the end),
Cassandra (already explained),
Cervantes (mainly thx to Kira/Dems who find a way to use Cervantes's kick autoGi just like a little Asura + all his good kick moves + iTP when back to RO + moves that cannot be auto Gi ed),
Ivy (who need an explanation ? ah ah),
Sophitia,
Talim,
and Xiang (both ShenYuan and Kayane found some different way to fight Hilde with her).
And Kilik is the only one who can have an answer without spupid risk/reward to C3B/C3A.
We had think of Astaroth for long. But well, Saitoh argue for the 3-7 mainly because of Hilde step.
I still disagree with him but well... it's Saitoh.
By the way, I just checked and Hilde-Yunsung is 8-2. So no problem.
Yota who plays both Hilde and Yunsung, give some good talked about this match up and helped to put it this way.
Character that have 3-7 against Hilde are:
Amy,
Asta (no DOOM, 4-6 maybe but Saitoh was the one to decide the final score in the end),
Cassandra (already explained),
Cervantes (mainly thx to Kira/Dems who find a way to use Cervantes's kick autoGi just like a little Asura + all his good kick moves + iTP when back to RO + moves that cannot be auto Gi ed),
Ivy (who need an explanation ? ah ah),
Sophitia,
Talim,
and Xiang (both ShenYuan and Kayane found some different way to fight Hilde with her).
And Kilik is the only one who can have an answer without spupid risk/reward to C3B/C3A.
We had think of Astaroth for long. But well, Saitoh argue for the 3-7 mainly because of Hilde step.
I still disagree with him but well... it's Saitoh.
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Ok looks potent. And regarding Asta-Hilde. I agree with you, step is same against many chars, asta dont have to risk so much dealing with step. His throws cant be stepped unlike some other chars. Saitoh is just pissed off and I understand him. But I also agree its 3-7 for Asta, mainly b/c kind of pressure hilde can provide and consistant frame advantage and range of her tools all put Asta in a difficult position and let Hilde control flow of the game completely even without doom combo. Like we discussed before - Hilde is still pretty broken even w/o doom, but since she has doom lots of people are blinded by it.
malek
[10] Knight
Ok,
About Amy vs Lizard, any help will be appreciate.
Here are some opinion about this match up:
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Both characters didn't punish very well (weak damage).
Lizard can abuse with his 3B move so CF can happen quickly.
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LC is good against Amy cause she don't have a good FC game.
Even when she blocks LC moves, che cannot punish them well.
Amy's 8A+B is not gonna stop LC very well because of back dash during LC or LC B
+ she cannot back dash well
+ her 44B is not gonna work well against Lezard.
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Regarding lizardman - His 9_8K is great move, but its not used so much and for a reason. 3K is not really worth mentioning. It is there, it will happen from time to timebut overall its just weak. Consider the risk of being stepped /aGI and dubious frame advantage looks really bleak. The bottom line is that, mathmatically, safe, but low damaging options have bad risk/reward. Of course in real game stuff happens differently and its always nice to have something that reset mixup (i.e. on FC opponent stuff like 3K becomes gold) sometimes its usable, but its not matchup deciding and does not count in determining character strength.
So generally best lizard stuff has only minor to none adv on hit, and his main damage dealers are pretty slow (3B i20 and 11B i28). Lizardman frame (dis)advantage is one of his weaknesses. As long as your opponent is aware of it , he can always stop your atack flow. And from there on you have to start reverse-mixup game, which is, of course potent for lizardman, but still losing the momentum is what it is, no matter how revarding reverse option their value goes down as situations multiply. Where top tier character get to go on with his flow, lizard has to stop.
Lizard BB on guard is not so good, with -10 there are moves amy will use to keep you in your place, b/c you cant step anything within 17 frames. Lizard 66A is actually bad in this matchup,b/c its punishable.
Same for A+B, which of course can be aGI'ed on anticipation, easily stepped and low dmg. unless there is a set up that forces to guard it (like it was a tech trap after command throw in sc3) then you think too highly of this move.
6B well same as for BB, it is punishable but usually off range i think. anyway too much to care about for lizard.
So IMO lizard tools in this match are hardly good. Also CF is not such a big deal since amy will get to hit lizard a lot, he cannot just space this matchup like he does in some other. And to even hope to deal his big damage he will need to really work hard on setting this up against Amy, which, in turn, get lower values for the overall need to first create a situation where he can apply, but his tools for creating this situaion is very limited by Amy. Lizard is only really good at destroying characters who are already weak. Against upper part of the cast he is significantly worse. Chars who play heavy spacing game have to do some adjustments , but once its done its no longer as menacing.
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I added some different points we heard/read here and talked about in order to have more differents opinions/XP.
So, right now there is no clear answer...
No one agree with no one... ah ah
As always, any comments/advices/own Xp is appreciate in order to be able to understand this match up as clear as possible.
About Amy vs Lizard, any help will be appreciate.
Here are some opinion about this match up:
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Both characters didn't punish very well (weak damage).
Lizard can abuse with his 3B move so CF can happen quickly.
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LC is good against Amy cause she don't have a good FC game.
Even when she blocks LC moves, che cannot punish them well.
Amy's 8A+B is not gonna stop LC very well because of back dash during LC or LC B
+ she cannot back dash well
+ her 44B is not gonna work well against Lezard.
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Xso said:
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Maxou said:
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Malek said:
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Regarding lizardman - His 9_8K is great move, but its not used so much and for a reason. 3K is not really worth mentioning. It is there, it will happen from time to timebut overall its just weak. Consider the risk of being stepped /aGI and dubious frame advantage looks really bleak. The bottom line is that, mathmatically, safe, but low damaging options have bad risk/reward. Of course in real game stuff happens differently and its always nice to have something that reset mixup (i.e. on FC opponent stuff like 3K becomes gold) sometimes its usable, but its not matchup deciding and does not count in determining character strength.
So generally best lizard stuff has only minor to none adv on hit, and his main damage dealers are pretty slow (3B i20 and 11B i28). Lizardman frame (dis)advantage is one of his weaknesses. As long as your opponent is aware of it , he can always stop your atack flow. And from there on you have to start reverse-mixup game, which is, of course potent for lizardman, but still losing the momentum is what it is, no matter how revarding reverse option their value goes down as situations multiply. Where top tier character get to go on with his flow, lizard has to stop.
Lizard BB on guard is not so good, with -10 there are moves amy will use to keep you in your place, b/c you cant step anything within 17 frames. Lizard 66A is actually bad in this matchup,b/c its punishable.
Same for A+B, which of course can be aGI'ed on anticipation, easily stepped and low dmg. unless there is a set up that forces to guard it (like it was a tech trap after command throw in sc3) then you think too highly of this move.
6B well same as for BB, it is punishable but usually off range i think. anyway too much to care about for lizard.
So IMO lizard tools in this match are hardly good. Also CF is not such a big deal since amy will get to hit lizard a lot, he cannot just space this matchup like he does in some other. And to even hope to deal his big damage he will need to really work hard on setting this up against Amy, which, in turn, get lower values for the overall need to first create a situation where he can apply, but his tools for creating this situaion is very limited by Amy. Lizard is only really good at destroying characters who are already weak. Against upper part of the cast he is significantly worse. Chars who play heavy spacing game have to do some adjustments , but once its done its no longer as menacing.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I added some different points we heard/read here and talked about in order to have more differents opinions/XP.
So, right now there is no clear answer...
No one agree with no one... ah ah
As always, any comments/advices/own Xp is appreciate in order to be able to understand this match up as clear as possible.
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
does 3BA work or just 3B?
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
6:6B, 8wrL and 7G mixed in proportion destroy LC completely.
thugish_pond
[10] Knight
Yes, LC is almost useless on Amy. She can step it all even the A. And if I recall if he blocks 2b+k, it pushes him away for some reason. He can delay so it will hit but I think that mixup favors Amy more. I think this is one of the few characters Amy can use b+k auto gi a lot because there's so many mids lizard will try and do.
I also think asta is even vs Amy. She may be quicker but damage wise it can be hard to keep up. It's tough for both sides I believe.
Not sure on ivy, feels even though I still don't think I have enough experience in this matchup.
Hilde- I agree with Belial, she has better tools to deal with it than some others, but still disadvantaged obviously. I had to fight Dina and rtd at Cannes!! Very difficult.
Voldo I still believe is slightly disadvantaged because lack of punishment and stepping. I don't know ANY player that can punish a move from crouch with an 8wr attack when it's the move is almost the same amount of frames as the move their punishing is negative.
Setsuka I feel is even. As long both players are on point with punishing. Setsuka does have to guess a bit more though I think.
I also think asta is even vs Amy. She may be quicker but damage wise it can be hard to keep up. It's tough for both sides I believe.
Not sure on ivy, feels even though I still don't think I have enough experience in this matchup.
Hilde- I agree with Belial, she has better tools to deal with it than some others, but still disadvantaged obviously. I had to fight Dina and rtd at Cannes!! Very difficult.
Voldo I still believe is slightly disadvantaged because lack of punishment and stepping. I don't know ANY player that can punish a move from crouch with an 8wr attack when it's the move is almost the same amount of frames as the move their punishing is negative.
Setsuka I feel is even. As long both players are on point with punishing. Setsuka does have to guess a bit more though I think.
LP
Premium Member
I can't wait until Thugish goes 0-10 against SwordLord's Lizardman.
ZeroEffect317
[13] Hero
I would think the only real redeeming factors Lizardman has is that his overall damage output is higher and that he won't have to try and block Amy's 2B+K since it tend to whiff on him unless she's close enough to hug him.
All his best moves are mids though and he doesn't have a really high damaging High so Amy's B+K is definitely a major problem for him. LC isn't meant to be used for long anyway, and most characters can deal with it. I'd say it's likely a 7-3 for Amy.
And as I've stated before in the last matchup thread, Amy vs Talim is ONLY 6/4 for Amy. No more no less.
If we put the tier bias aside and look at this objectively, the only reasons Amy gets the nod in this match is because she can punish moves most characters can't with 6BB, and the fact that Amy can get her damage off of safe options. She can't get away with any more tricks against Talim than she can against anyone else.
All his best moves are mids though and he doesn't have a really high damaging High so Amy's B+K is definitely a major problem for him. LC isn't meant to be used for long anyway, and most characters can deal with it. I'd say it's likely a 7-3 for Amy.
And as I've stated before in the last matchup thread, Amy vs Talim is ONLY 6/4 for Amy. No more no less.
If we put the tier bias aside and look at this objectively, the only reasons Amy gets the nod in this match is because she can punish moves most characters can't with 6BB, and the fact that Amy can get her damage off of safe options. She can't get away with any more tricks against Talim than she can against anyone else.
Saitoh
[10] Knight
Imo, Asta vs Amy is still 5:5 and Asta vs Hilde is still 3:7.
I've explained why several time already (maybe on the french forum) so I wont explain it again. I've seen nothing since that time to change my mind about that, really.
I've explained why several time already (maybe on the french forum) so I wont explain it again. I've seen nothing since that time to change my mind about that, really.
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
not to mention LC is probably the worst stance in SC4(it shouldn't even factor in because its so bad), amy has really good ground hitting options, and even if she cant punish it being at massive disadvantage vs amy is bad
Inori DWF
[10] Knight
I think Amy has an advantage over Asta for only a few reasons..
1. Amy's b+k auto Gi can deal with ALOT of Asta's pressure game. Bullrush and 44b both eat it and get punished... You are basically forced really messed up mind games with 44b to WR A or close in and try to JF throw.. being close to Amy is not cool.
2. Trying to space Amy is REALLY hard..and once she gets close she starts creating mix ups and Asta pretty much has to either predict really well and GI or wait until you get the chance to JF throw, Knee or crouch throw.
3. I don't know if this is just me (it probably is) but I think the timing for Titan bomb is slightly off against Amy because it seems like she is the hardest to catch.
So I would say Amy vs Asta is 6:4 Amy's favor.
thugish_pond
[10] Knight
44b isn't a move to use against Amy really. Can be stepped like nothing.
LP
Premium Member
Who is it a move to be used against is the question? I think the feints are somewhat useful but I'm not seeing any matches where I'd think, "He needs to use more 44b..." Then again, my Asta is still level 1 with her bullrush/4B/throw mixups. ;-;
Inori DWF
[10] Knight
So if that is the case wouldn't that just bolster my argument? Or are you agreeing with me? I actually can't tell lol.
44b can be a really good backwards tech trap if done fast enough. It also hurts the SG a fair amount so it can be used to pressure the opponent against blocking and that is why feinting keeps them at the edge of their seats. I also use it to bait slow moves that they think they can counter it with. Side step and punish.
malek
[10] Knight
Ok about Amy-Astaroth, still 5-5.
I also propose Amy-Talim has Zero said.
Can you please, remember me what you said previously on the Talim forum ? THX.
Voldo is still on debate.
How ever, I have to agree both with Belial and Thuggish that punish a low with 6:6something looks impossible (at least to me). I tried to punish Amy 2B+K with Lizard 66K and missed a lot, even in training mode...
Amy-Lizardman now. I tested a litlle this match up and found some things:
From Amy's side:
Amy can punish lots of things with 6BB (15 damage, +2 on hit) mainly Lizard 66A, 11B, 6B, A+B, 66B, 88A, and LC A+K B
These moves can be punished by 6BB only.
But depending on range she can also punish some other moves with 66B 66BA (36 or 55 damage depending on JU or not, + wake up game) mainly Lizard 3B, 66K and 1K
4BB (30 damage, +6 on hit) or 1A can also punish Lizardman 3B depending on range.
Amy's low cannot be punished very well by Lizardman. Both 1A and 2B+K can be punished by 66K for 36 damage. But it's quite hard on 2B+K. WS B also punish but for only 16 damage and +2 on hit, which is not enough against Amy.
At disadvantage, Amy 6BB will beat all damaging tool of Lizardman except TC moves.
Even when Lizardman hit Amy with AA (+6 on hit), 3K (+6 on hit), Amy's 6BB will beat Lizard's 3B, 66A, 6B, 66B+K A B (from time to time Lizard TC will work here, some time it won't).
With Lizard 8K (+7 on hit), 6BB will hit at the same time than Lizard's move (66A and 6B only). More damage for Lizard, but end of advantage.
(NB: Lizard 4B+K and 4K also give some good advantage on hit, but these moves are too slow or don't have enough range to be really usefull)
Amy's 1A to 6BB also beat all tools of Lizardman except TC moves.
Now from Lizardman side:
Lizardman has trouble to punish Amy. 1A is not so hard to punish, but 66K is not so great to punish this move (only 36 damage, but at least Amy is on ground). 2B+K can be punished easy by WS B, but then Lizard is only at advantage +3. How ever, 2B+K can whiff on Lizard due to his "strange" hit box and then he can punish easy with 3B 66K for more than 60 damage. 6BB 236BBB can also be punished with 66K. Only interresting punishment is 6BBB which can be punished with 3B 33A+B for 74 damage.
When Lizard is between advantage -1 (After Amy's 1A) to +3 (After 2A on hit), he cannot stop Amy's 6BB.
Here are his 3 main options (at least, what I found as interresting):
- 2A which is going to beat all Amy's options for an advantage +8 (except guard, auto Gi, 44B, 6BB)
- 11B which is going to beat 6BB, auto Gi and 44B for 78 damage
- throw which is going to beat guard, step, slow moves (i15 to i17 depending on advantage at start)
When Lizard is between advantage +4 (4K) to +8 (2A on counterhit), he still cannot stop Amy's 6BB.
Here are his main options:
- 66A which is going to beat all Amy's options for 30 damage + a shackable stun = lots of advantage, this time she'll not be able to interrupt with her 6BB (except guard, 6BB, autoGi)
- 11B which is going to beat 6BB, auto Gi for 78 damage
- throw which is going to beat guard, step, lots of moves (i10 to i14 depending on advantage at start)
Against random AutoGi, Lizardman has some powerfull tool.
CH 66B+K A B, A+B, 66K is a combo for 109 Damage !!!
11B also beats autoGi because of the delayed timing of the move.
11B, A+B, 66K is a garanted combo for 78 damage. But 11B, 4B+K G is a garanted combo too for insane RO. And 11B, A+B, 8A+K_8[A+K] is a mind game that can land to 100 damage.
Against Amy's 6BB236's mind game, Lizardman has 2 interresting tools : 88A and 1B+K.
88A is a high for 20 damage that can avoid some vertical moves. 1B+K is an UB for 60 damage that is TC from the first frame + it avoid mid.
Against 6BB236 on block, both 88A and 1B+K avoid 100% amy's options (236BBB, 236 3B, 236 2B+K, 236 auto Gi, 236 throw, 236 1A, 236 33B, etc...).
(Two exceptions for 1B+K which will be hit by 6BB236 2B+K and 6BB236 33B).
Against 6BB236 on hit, both 88A and 1B+K will loose to 236BBB but still avoid the others option the same way before.
This works only against 6BB236's mind game, and not against 66B's mind game.
I also propose Amy-Talim has Zero said.
Can you please, remember me what you said previously on the Talim forum ? THX.
Voldo is still on debate.
How ever, I have to agree both with Belial and Thuggish that punish a low with 6:6something looks impossible (at least to me). I tried to punish Amy 2B+K with Lizard 66K and missed a lot, even in training mode...
Amy-Lizardman now. I tested a litlle this match up and found some things:
From Amy's side:
Amy can punish lots of things with 6BB (15 damage, +2 on hit) mainly Lizard 66A, 11B, 6B, A+B, 66B, 88A, and LC A+K B
These moves can be punished by 6BB only.
But depending on range she can also punish some other moves with 66B 66BA (36 or 55 damage depending on JU or not, + wake up game) mainly Lizard 3B, 66K and 1K
4BB (30 damage, +6 on hit) or 1A can also punish Lizardman 3B depending on range.
Amy's low cannot be punished very well by Lizardman. Both 1A and 2B+K can be punished by 66K for 36 damage. But it's quite hard on 2B+K. WS B also punish but for only 16 damage and +2 on hit, which is not enough against Amy.
At disadvantage, Amy 6BB will beat all damaging tool of Lizardman except TC moves.
Even when Lizardman hit Amy with AA (+6 on hit), 3K (+6 on hit), Amy's 6BB will beat Lizard's 3B, 66A, 6B, 66B+K A B (from time to time Lizard TC will work here, some time it won't).
With Lizard 8K (+7 on hit), 6BB will hit at the same time than Lizard's move (66A and 6B only). More damage for Lizard, but end of advantage.
(NB: Lizard 4B+K and 4K also give some good advantage on hit, but these moves are too slow or don't have enough range to be really usefull)
Amy's 1A to 6BB also beat all tools of Lizardman except TC moves.
Now from Lizardman side:
Lizardman has trouble to punish Amy. 1A is not so hard to punish, but 66K is not so great to punish this move (only 36 damage, but at least Amy is on ground). 2B+K can be punished easy by WS B, but then Lizard is only at advantage +3. How ever, 2B+K can whiff on Lizard due to his "strange" hit box and then he can punish easy with 3B 66K for more than 60 damage. 6BB 236BBB can also be punished with 66K. Only interresting punishment is 6BBB which can be punished with 3B 33A+B for 74 damage.
When Lizard is between advantage -1 (After Amy's 1A) to +3 (After 2A on hit), he cannot stop Amy's 6BB.
Here are his 3 main options (at least, what I found as interresting):
- 2A which is going to beat all Amy's options for an advantage +8 (except guard, auto Gi, 44B, 6BB)
- 11B which is going to beat 6BB, auto Gi and 44B for 78 damage
- throw which is going to beat guard, step, slow moves (i15 to i17 depending on advantage at start)
When Lizard is between advantage +4 (4K) to +8 (2A on counterhit), he still cannot stop Amy's 6BB.
Here are his main options:
- 66A which is going to beat all Amy's options for 30 damage + a shackable stun = lots of advantage, this time she'll not be able to interrupt with her 6BB (except guard, 6BB, autoGi)
- 11B which is going to beat 6BB, auto Gi for 78 damage
- throw which is going to beat guard, step, lots of moves (i10 to i14 depending on advantage at start)
Against random AutoGi, Lizardman has some powerfull tool.
CH 66B+K A B, A+B, 66K is a combo for 109 Damage !!!
11B also beats autoGi because of the delayed timing of the move.
11B, A+B, 66K is a garanted combo for 78 damage. But 11B, 4B+K G is a garanted combo too for insane RO. And 11B, A+B, 8A+K_8[A+K] is a mind game that can land to 100 damage.
Against Amy's 6BB236's mind game, Lizardman has 2 interresting tools : 88A and 1B+K.
88A is a high for 20 damage that can avoid some vertical moves. 1B+K is an UB for 60 damage that is TC from the first frame + it avoid mid.
Against 6BB236 on block, both 88A and 1B+K avoid 100% amy's options (236BBB, 236 3B, 236 2B+K, 236 auto Gi, 236 throw, 236 1A, 236 33B, etc...).
(Two exceptions for 1B+K which will be hit by 6BB236 2B+K and 6BB236 33B).
Against 6BB236 on hit, both 88A and 1B+K will loose to 236BBB but still avoid the others option the same way before.
This works only against 6BB236's mind game, and not against 66B's mind game.
Something-Unique
[10] Knight
I'm not gonna argue with king Astaroth Saitoh but I'm gonna have to disagree on 3-7 in Astaroth vs. Hilde. 4-6 is more plausible. No on in this game can deal with Hilde's movement or frames for that matter. More so the frames because of her movement. Asta's long throw range and damage from his throws are more than enough to make matchups 4-6 or 5-5 for him vs. anyone in the game. That combined with the fact that there is no doom gives him an innate advantage even though he is slow.
On the matter of Amy vs. Lizardman Malek Amy can punish from FC with 6:6B which would shut down his entire lizard crawl. Belial noted this above. I do it with Kilik's since all other punishes from him go right through his wonky hit box with no explanation so it is practical. Lizardman's great 66A anti step zoning tool can be punished by Amy 66B. Lizardman depends on whether or not he can get away with 1K shenanigans. Once blocked he has no tools imo and it is seeable. His BB is superb but in general Amy will outclass him in the frame game overall. This match is almost a shut down for Amy. 7-3 Amy. Not to mention more practical use of Amy's B+K here.
On the matter of Amy vs. Lizardman Malek Amy can punish from FC with 6:6B which would shut down his entire lizard crawl. Belial noted this above. I do it with Kilik's since all other punishes from him go right through his wonky hit box with no explanation so it is practical. Lizardman's great 66A anti step zoning tool can be punished by Amy 66B. Lizardman depends on whether or not he can get away with 1K shenanigans. Once blocked he has no tools imo and it is seeable. His BB is superb but in general Amy will outclass him in the frame game overall. This match is almost a shut down for Amy. 7-3 Amy. Not to mention more practical use of Amy's B+K here.
Chickenwing
[10] Knight
I'll have to agree on SU here, in NO WAY that match is 3:7. 4:6 is more likely the best case. 5:5 is even a better chance than 3:7. Also, agree with SU's match-up with Amy v. Lizzy
ZeroEffect317
[13] Hero
Malek -
Amy/Talim is actually not a very complex matchup.
At it's basics, it boils down to the fact that the things that make Talim have problems is push back on block and zoning. Amy can't do this because she, too, is a close range fighter. Because of this, Talim doesn't have to play super cautious and take risks to get in on her due to the fact that Amy's attacks will bring her right into Talim's optimum range.
So what you have is two characters, who both excel in close, trading attacks until one falls. Only differences are that Amy is safe almost everywhere and Talim is not. Both have good TC attacks that lead to knockdowns and decent damage. Amy's 6BB is an annoyance but not a matchup killer for Talim.
Breaking things down a bit further,
- Talim and Amy are relatively the same speed except for Amy's 6BB.
- Talim's RO game is just as effective as Amy's, but because Amy's launchers are all safe, her RO game is "better" by default.
- Talim's throw game is better than Amy's
- Amy block punishes better, but both have solid whiff punishing options. Talim actually does more damage than Amy overall. Amy generally whiff punishes with 33B combo (54 dmg) or 66A+B combo (possible 61 dmg). Talim has 33B:6B, 2A+B (56 dmg), 22B combo (64 dmg), or 236B combo (67 dmg).
- Amy is weaker to step than Talim is, and Talim can hurt her nicely for it. If Talim WC evades her she gets WC B:B combo for 60+ dmg. Almost all of Talim's 8wr attacks knockdown on NH. You get the idea.
On the flip side, while Talim's wakeup game is decent, it's not nearly as good as Amy's.
Yes, it's true Talim has to take risks more often than Amy to get her damage, but that's pretty much the main thing giving Amy the edge in this matchup.
Amy/Talim is actually not a very complex matchup.
At it's basics, it boils down to the fact that the things that make Talim have problems is push back on block and zoning. Amy can't do this because she, too, is a close range fighter. Because of this, Talim doesn't have to play super cautious and take risks to get in on her due to the fact that Amy's attacks will bring her right into Talim's optimum range.
So what you have is two characters, who both excel in close, trading attacks until one falls. Only differences are that Amy is safe almost everywhere and Talim is not. Both have good TC attacks that lead to knockdowns and decent damage. Amy's 6BB is an annoyance but not a matchup killer for Talim.
Breaking things down a bit further,
- Talim and Amy are relatively the same speed except for Amy's 6BB.
- Talim's RO game is just as effective as Amy's, but because Amy's launchers are all safe, her RO game is "better" by default.
- Talim's throw game is better than Amy's
- Amy block punishes better, but both have solid whiff punishing options. Talim actually does more damage than Amy overall. Amy generally whiff punishes with 33B combo (54 dmg) or 66A+B combo (possible 61 dmg). Talim has 33B:6B, 2A+B (56 dmg), 22B combo (64 dmg), or 236B combo (67 dmg).
- Amy is weaker to step than Talim is, and Talim can hurt her nicely for it. If Talim WC evades her she gets WC B:B combo for 60+ dmg. Almost all of Talim's 8wr attacks knockdown on NH. You get the idea.
On the flip side, while Talim's wakeup game is decent, it's not nearly as good as Amy's.
Yes, it's true Talim has to take risks more often than Amy to get her damage, but that's pretty much the main thing giving Amy the edge in this matchup.