Raphael General Discussion

Another question:

Could you give some examples of moves you'd use to punish whiffs (after a successful step for ex.).

I just use 33K:B and throws .-. any other option?
(my raph is becoming little too predictable lately...i'm playing on a flowchart XD so i am searching for new ideas for training).
 
I'm confused. Isn't this just about how much damage you can get in that much time? JF Quick Mandritti combo is friggin good as Warui said; 33K:B is a lot of damage + knockdown for only 17 frames, and outside of that... the 66B combo? Is it even more damage? I don't think so...

The only other sort of thing you could want is stage positioning, but Raph can't get that with anything under... 22 frames? All I see for it is the 4 combo to push.

What am I missing? Why is this a question?

I just wish 33B was reliable, so Raph could play a mid/low game when he's got whiff advantage.
 
Mandritti said:
I'm confused. Isn't this just about how much damage you can get in that much time? JF Quick Mandritti combo is friggin good as Warui said; 33K:B is a lot of damage + knockdown for only 17 frames, and outside of that... the 66B combo? Is it even more damage? I don't think so...

The only other sort of thing you could want is stage positioning, but Raph can't get that with anything under... 22 frames? All I see for it is the 4 combo to push.

What am I missing? Why is this a question?

I just wish 33B was reliable, so Raph could play a mid/low game when he's got whiff advantage.
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Just searching for new ideas...recently raph style seems to be a little static ._. whereas i see many characters are still improving and trying new things ._.

But i am really short on ideas so don't know what to train...
 
Mandritti said:
I'm confused. Isn't this just about how much damage you can get in that much time? JF Quick Mandritti combo is friggin good as Warui said; 33K:B is a lot of damage + knockdown for only 17 frames, and outside of that... the 66B combo? Is it even more damage? I don't think so...

The only other sort of thing you could want is stage positioning, but Raph can't get that with anything under... 22 frames? All I see for it is the 4 combo to push.

What am I missing? Why is this a question?

I just wish 33B was reliable, so Raph could play a mid/low game when he's got whiff advantage.
Click to expand...


I do not suggest using 66B off a step-evade as a whiff punisher because its already borderline too slow, and that 66 does a lot more damage far away (66~K:K 11B) as opposed to anything 66B can net you (with 2A+B or 11B followup). Raph's 22B JF combo is the move of choice, but the only problem is that sometimes it doesnt' connect, and those "sometimes" are something you're going to have to live with playing raph.

Choosing 8~4 (basically a step then a fast TC) can be super evasive, as you begin to TC 3 frames after you're done stepping, so it'll reliably evade moves like a i16 mid vertical or a i20+ high horizontal (aka raph mirrors) which, depending on your opponent's tendencies, could be a reliable, safe and relatively high damaging option. Only problem is it's a high, but so is step-grab.

OR.. you could 4A. Just saying.. its an option
 
I don't speak for all Raphael's, but it's my opinion that 66(B) is pure garbage. 66B 2a+b/11b does 5 less damage from my knowledge, and is alot safer. You're already worrying about 66B being stepped and getting whiffed punished all the time, you really want to add more insult to injury by making it even less safe? For barely any pay off?

::throws 66(B) out the window::
 
66(B) is complete poo poo

Its unsafe,the combo only works are certain ranges,its amazingly linear

despite the frames 66B is pretty hard to punish
 
WARUI_NE said:
33B was reliable when it was 22B
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Yes. Yes it was. :'(

WuHT said:
I do not suggest using 66B off a step-evade as a whiff punisher because its already borderline too slow, and that 66 does a lot more damage far away (66~K:K 11B) as opposed to anything 66B can net you (with 2A+B or 11B followup).
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Yeah, I hate either one of those. 66 to combo is inconsistent, and if wiki frames are right it's punishable. If 66 is punishable, 66B is punishable. The insult is if you're interrupted, you're in backturn.
The only conceivable use is a hit/whiff mixup, but the prep transition is STILL too slow to get something. EDIT: Plus Prep itself doesn't offer a guessing game.

I can't think why I wouldn't just take 236B, or have a pair and do 4 if I really am thinking to duck something.

OR.. you could 4A. Just saying.. its an option
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Heh, I'll keep to known holes in blockstrings with 4A. I read that it gets out of Asura Dance. That sounds pretty **** valuable. I don't want to get my 3K forced all the time.
But who mentioned 4A?

Anyways, the discussion was about punishment after step, right?
(Yeah, I think 33K:B is supposed to make us all happy. i17 is a great treat.)

*~*~*~
By the way, my finding is that 33B is way more consistent if you use 99B. That is, circle clockwise (move left). When Raph moves right, it's like the model doesn't 'turn' all the way to compensate (during the preparatory step in startup), and he cuts off-target to the right. When he moves left, it seems more likely he'll catch something in the cut's arc. But it's still important to actually hit the feet (the one move that is this specific about collision >:( ), so it's no good if the opponent isn't aligned.
 
Mandritti: I mentioned it to WARUI_NE in chat a while back when I was experimenting with Raph's evasive options. Basically you 4A after the first hit of Asura. It will either punish the 2nd hit or make the 3rd whiff for a free back throw. 4A is a lame punish but at least it's guaranteed and worth the chance for a back throw. No thinking required. Amy has the same option obviously.
 
Mandritti said:
By the way, my finding is that 33B is way more consistent if you use 99B.
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LOL the only reason i prefer to step in the 8 direction is you get better options out of it. You could use 7_8_9 for 8WR moves or cancel the step with 1_2_3 for regular moves. The inverse doesnt' apply because if you go 2 8B you get a crappy jumping attack.
 
Yeah, online it's probably a lag low, which is why it was kinda hard to test this. I didn't want to be the first guy to use a lag low, etc. etc. so there may be sampling bias in how I think "it hits in actual situations, not just a manikin target." I did check in training mode (on a manikin).

Oh, and "way more consistent" than "shit" isn't saying much, don't get me wrong. >_> I still would not want to NEED this move, but I am thinking, if I want to go for it, I'm absolutely doing 99B.
The only way I could respect myself in online matches with it is, it's still safe when spaced, and doesn't knockdown.
I figure in those same situations, spaced and all that, it's alright on whiff, too.
 
When I was still able to play I was messing around with 1k and when people would 2A right after my 1k I started using 4A+B. It seems like somthing to do but I don't know how well 4A+B really is.
 
Online it's hard to re gi in time(4A+B) to recognize the animation, but offline it may be a different matter. It's really NOT a bad move if your opponent isn't re giing it, the window is huge, I just wish it had some form of attack on a non aGI.
 
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