Maxi General Discussion

[Freaky]

You do gauge dmg better than him

I disagree.

You could always try 33B after Zas 4B+K, depending on what they like to do after it's blocked. Payoff is worth it. There's no easy way around 4B+K for Maxi. A good Zas will make you work to get in. 66B+K can work, but you'll be eating air more often than not. 66K and 33A are better choices. It's better to watch for a bit and see what the Zas player's attack patterns are.

 

[Uber1337]

That's the thing though, its seriously slow enough to visually check. RO A is i13, RO B is like ~20 and RO K is 29. I tried it, you can visually see how Maxi is moving and determine the RO followup...

If you can visually recognize and GI a i13 frame move in battle then you are an absolute god at soul calibur, you must be able to GI things like AA or K on reaction too since they are about the same speed. Unfortunately, most people are not blessed with such amazing reactions so they would have to guess that a RO A was gonna come out and GI as soon as the 6A hit, in which case the RO K will hit.

 

[Tactu]

If you can visually recognize and GI a i13 frame move in battle then you are an absolute god at soul calibur, you must be able to GI things like AA or K on reaction too since they are about the same speed. Unfortunately, most people are not blessed with such amazing reactions so they would have to guess that a RO A was gonna come out and GI as soon as the 6A hit, in which case the RO K will hit.

sure thing.

So I setup a 3 command practice mode switching randomly between 6A RO A,B, and K on both hit and block, and it's quite difficult to determine visually on hit which is coming out. I was using only a single one at a time and switching manually which must have given a false impression of recognition. Randomly its much more difficult with RO B being the only capable of being recognized consistently. On block its quite a bit easier of course, but RO A must still be on anticipation, with RO B and K being much easier to see. What comes out of this testing is that RO B pretty much sucks. Because its easy to GI and on block it sucks. 6A RO K does work very well as a counter part to RO A and is pretty tricky to GI, but you can trade with K or AA if you recognize in time.

All this being predicated on your opponent knowing what they can do on hit and block. Most people just wait for RO AK/RO B to finish or knock you out of RO K. :)

No problem. B+K BBB A is (IMO) the best mid of Maxi, but if you're FC you do not have acces to it so 22b can be an interesting alternative, even if 236K is, i think, a better solution (safer, more damage, pressing with A+BG PSL3 LI otg, better TC)

Readable? :)

Oui. :) Merci

 

[Ahriman]

If you know the opponent will do a GI in a stance pressing you can punish it with B+K. I f he doesn't you're pretty safe. Good option select, but works better against people who knows maxi

 

[Kvasir]

22B sucks ass seriously...don't waste your time, one of maxi's worst moves.

What makes you think that?

 

[Tactu]

If you know the opponent will do a GI in a stance pressing you can punish it with B+K. I f he doesn't you're pretty safe. Good option select, but works better against people who knows maxi

I think you take a bigger risk B+K than they do. They have the open to GI or to block and punish/retaliate. I think that's why Johnny sticks to 3B and 4B for neutral starters rather than 6A. On hit the damage is much more, like twice as much and its uninterruptable. 6A even on hit doesn't combo into RO A, and on block they are both significantly better (+4 and +7 respectively ) with 4B having a completely safe option in LO A and 3B PSL2 RC being safe(r) than any option from 6A.

 

[Tiamat]

i love 22B it alows great oki mix ups because it knocks them down right in front of you

UMMM...not really, it hits them absurdly far away for absolutely no good reason

I think the only use for 22B is for ranged whiff punish. At far 22B range there's nothing else for the same speed to use really, and it's fast enough to punish whiffs decently, just does low damage.

 

[Ahriman]

I think you take a bigger risk B+K than they do. They have the open to GI or to block and punish/retaliate. I think that's why Johnny sticks to 3B and 4B for neutral starters rather than 6A. On hit the damage is much more, like twice as much and its uninterruptable. 6A even on hit doesn't combo into RO A, and on block they are both significantly better (+4 and +7 respectively ) with 4B having a completely safe option in LO A and 3B PSL2 RC being safe(r) than any option from 6A.

I disagree. I play often very good people and nobody take the risk to punish B+K, they fear the follow up. Anyway i talk about GI punish so it's not a random action but a deliberate choice and in this case, nobody punish the B+K. The maxi's freeze effect.

I was a big fan of 4B before but now a lot of people do step guard against it and the best solution against is LO A in neutral which is not a big damages option. So now i use 4B only if the guy start to freeze, i'd rather prefer 33bA and 66B4 to start my pressing. 6A is a punisher, no interest in block. 3B is good but i use it only if i hope CH and if its blocked or neutral then i press

 

[FunkeXMix]

I don't get this 3b PSL2 RC move. Any player who can recognise a pause in any offensive move will poke your dance. On block the staggering affect wears of to quickly for any stancing to be done safely. Experienced players interrupt almost all of my stancing if the previous hit was a non frame advantage blocked attack. The only place I see for stancing is close range safe moves where your opponent knows your combo is relatively safe. Like 3b,a,k (4b,b,k) 44ab, 33ba. Mixing up in there or cancelling works even against pros. All other stancing requires the previous hit to give you frame advantage before doing transitions. You have to play these people who punish all your mistakes to understand what Maxi is really about. Hit detection, punishing, avoidance, frame trap poking as a basic strategy to stop your opponents frame advantage fast moves (but stop if they are blocked), throws and unexpected mind games.


I think my Maxi style has been influensed greatly by the fact that the only good player I can play offline playes Taki. Taki players love poking shit out so iv'e become very careful with bewildering stance transitions. I think this is a good thing.

 

[Tactu]

@Ahriman: Yeah, but even if you are only using 6A to punish, its not that good. Its i15 sure, but it only does 14 damage, on HIT the opponent can GI or attack you for guaranteed CH, or just sit there and block. I dunno, maybe its much better in acutal combat than on paper and practice mode. I will try it out that way for sure.

@Funk:Of course you can't just throw out 3B PSL2 RC, you need to train them with the RO A follow up so you can induce that hesitation. I've been doing the same thing with 4B. I tried to to 4B PSL 1/2 RC and it failed miserably. Ok, so then I tried 4B natural shift RC, which still failed, but its much quicker. Then I started doing 4B LO B/K alot, which made them wait/GI/whatever. Then you can start to do 4B -> RC when needed. Of course, I don't play a good taki, so I think your experience is pretty cool. Taki can knock you out of alot of stuff noone else can. Can you share some of your techniques that you use to prevent her from messing you up?

 

[Ahriman]

in case of hit you get the same pressing as 3B in block. Best pressing with 6A is in CH cause ROA is guaranteed.
But, like you, i do few 6A's generally

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

Ive been obssesed with 4B psl2 LI B for a long time. Its almost a must use in every round type of move. 4B psl2~ RC is scary. If I dont train em first Ill get poked out of it a lot. 3B RO A psl1 BL KK works more than you would think. BL KK is a great little tool for me!! Been learning to keep my loops small and simple and work more off neutral moves.

 

[hotnikkelz]

Freaky-styley.
Any particulars that make u disagree?
I also don't see why you would do 33B after Zas 4B+K when it is unsafe and bound to be blocked and iirc slower and more linear than 66B+K. I rather dash in and do mixups or whittle gauge. i see no point in doing 33A either, cuz he's unlikely to step either. I'd probably try 33bA though as it is more proactive

Kvasir.
Extremely linear even to accidental stepping, slow, whiffs partially a lot even on hit, low damage, unsafe, offers no good followups. I just don't see the point of using it at all. Doesn't have any evasive properties even.

I investigated 6A thoroughly when i started maxi and i do use it but i've had some bad experiences with it. This is why i'm very careful with it's use.
Dislikes
6A on hit psl3 GI doesn't work, i'm not sure why it doesn't it just doesn't activate.
Leaves you deep on normal hit, but the followups are risky and predictable and offer very little, looping is not a good option unless they really freeze which they never seem to do here. I dislike RO K in general cuz it's just too slow for me, TJ yes, but still don't like it.
Finally some random whiffing.
Likes
On CH however i love the damn move, so that's how i try to use it, to counter step G and hope to get CHs, like post 2A on hit for eg. or 33K on hit.
I also love that on CH it pushes them back, and options like psl2 RC B jumps 2As and is good vs hestitation, psl2 RC KK ducks AAs, RO A is combo, RO B is uninterruptable. 6A(CH) to neutral is safe iirc.
So once you understand the move, use your discretion but effective use means u need to research it quite thoroughly. I almost use RC and LO shifts EXCLUSIVELY after this move. It all depends on what i think they're gonna do in end. My train of though goes like this on CH
are u going to attack?
are u going to step?
are u going to just watch me?
I have options for each of those.....of course the attack response has another flowchart of thoughts. A lilttle of it i explained above.

Funkmix
3B psl2 is good cuz on block it staggers too much for simple pokes to work effectively. Watch the range at which u do 3Bs. Conventional counters that beat stuff like RO A and WL and psl3 GI fail to psl2 RC eg Amy's 3A. And since u go to RC, it's no problem just doing the safe mid tracking force crouching RC A or simply block.

As for 4B
I don't care if they step G or not...i'll whittle their gauge with psl2 LI Bs, or apply pressure with the neutral -> RC shift, or even the safe mid horizontal and beautiful LI K. Sometimes i just do 4BG and all depending on how they react to me. Their hesitation is agood thing, and itf they're step Ging, they're not attacking.

 

[Tactu]

Ive been obssesed with 4B psl2 LI B for a long time. Its almost a must use in every round type of move. 4B psl2~ RC is scary. If I dont train em first Ill get poked out of it a lot. 3B RO A psl1 BL KK works more than you would think. BL KK is a great little tool for me!! Been learning to keep my loops small and simple and work more off neutral moves.

Yeah, the next thing I want to experiment with is places where I can loop into BL to get the fury kicks. its like 45 damage and its a very hard to see low. Unfortunately, any decent player knows the places were Maxi ends up in BL, or Maxi is in BL but at such disadvantage its pointless ( like blocked 33b or 3a ). I have a session tomorrow with the guys, so i'm thinking maybe 3B PSL1 RC, but I'll have to experiment some and then do research this week.

Is it just me or is 1b really easy to step? Its frame data is stellar ( i15, 18 damage, only -8 on block ) along with its great TC, but i've had it accidentally stepped more times than i care for. I may experiment more with 2B, but its a shame that its i16.

So messing around tonight, will post more results as I experiment if anyone wants, but if you are looking purely for SG damage, 44B ain't half bad. It takes 1 more attack than 66B+K or LI ( breaks on the 10 versus 9th ), so it does alot of gauge damage. But its horrible on block. Fortunately, its does crazy push out and also forces crouch. If you are careful to attack at extreme or long range, you push out pretty far. Against some characters they'll still have a field day with you ( Setsuka, Zas ) and others have pretty good options ( Amy ), but others don't have attacks that reach at all ( mitsu ), or may only have a single attack that can reach and that attack may still miss at furthest range ( Kilik, Sophitia, Rock/Astaroth ) which means you can counter accordingly with PSL3, WL, or just blocking.
On hit things look up, with NH netting ~50, and CH being able to get ~70. 44B ends in RO, and both RO B and RO K are inescapable on CH or NH. RO B does more damage in both instances, but RO K immediately puts you into a tech trap situation. The 2A followup from RO K traps techs in all directions, misses people who lie down, and does 30 damage and knocks down again. The B followup traps normal, forward, and backwards, and will catch late side techers, but will miss if they tech immediately. It also does around 25 or 30 damage I think. I can't remember if it hits grounded...
If you go with RO B, it leaves you in RC, so you have quite a few options. RC K is pretty tasty since its hard to interrupt here, and also catches steppers. RC B does good soul gauge damage. RC A gets you back in close. Of course this move still sucks...but keep in mind the pushback at extreme range and the CF damage. If you are going for the CF, I think this move can help alot.

 

[Kvasir]

Now I may be a bit bias towards 22B. Still though, I don't think you're giving it enough credit. It can work well at range.

Extremely linear even to accidental stepping

Agreed.

slow

For a ranged move it's not terrible, but yeah I guess I have to agree again.

whiffs partially a lot even on hit, low damage

Heh, now you're being harsh. The move can whiff partially when used from tip range, or as a tech trap (stupid thing to do anyway), but you only lose 8 damage, and it's easy enough to avoid. 36 damage isn't what I consider low either.

unsafe, offers no good followups.

Despite the frames, it's hardly punishable. Some characters can land a BB, if they block it up close, but that's about as damaging as it gets. From tip range only a few characters have punishments for it, and nearly all of them are pathetic. To top it off hardly anyone knows shit about Maxi's 22B, so they probably won't punish it with anything.

You're right about follow ups though, it's basically only a good chance to close in, or reposition yourself.

6A on hit psl3 GI doesn't work, i'm not sure why it doesn't it just doesn't activate.

It does activate, almost instantly. I think you may have made of mistake because of the little 4 or 5 frame window where horizontals can go through. That dead zone is always there on psl3 from RO though, doesn't have much to do with 6A.

 

[FunkeXMix]

I don't play a good taki, so I think your experience is pretty cool. Taki can knock you out of alot of stuff noone else can. Can you share some of your techniques that you use to prevent her from messing you up?

.

Lol, poking. Maxi is sluggish in starting up and Taki is the opposite. So I have alot of fun with neccessary frame trap poking on hit, to make her defensive 3k being very nice for this *3k is 15 mid and stops 8wayrun to both sides* Only a sidestep can avoid it. But I think it's to hard to react to for that to be reliable, opponents need to do sidestep as soon as the move starts.( frame traps on hit: 3k, 2a, 2k). Makes the bitch understand that she should cool down. When she blocks I check her for a fraction of a second, if she's not being offensive anymore I do what I want.


Iv'e moved this necessary poking to my general strategy against all characters to gain advantage. It works.
To me poking seems crusial to become a good Maxi in tournaments. To compensate for his sluggish startups and infuse more hesitation into the opponent.

Everyone should incorporate the poke frame traps on top of the list mentioned in Tiamats thread "Maxi Frame Traps". And learn the rest in the list and use it wisely.

Maxi specific counters for Takis best moments:

Unblockable horizontal from possession: A+K, Maxi's sidestep.

Taki possession Air Jump: When Taki does her from possession air jump teleport you must step back or jump back to get out of range, this allows you a free heavy damage combo. 44b cancel into 66 b+k. You can also take some quick steps forward while she's in the air, unless she cancels the move during the jump you will go under her for free BT B+K.

Taki possession combo fastness:
1) Look for the 236 k kick, relatively easy to recognise and GI. Just block other fast hits.
2) Possession sidestepping: 2a or 3k it.

Taki WR K on block: Punish with 13i to 15i moves.

As a sidenote Taki has alot of TC going on alot of the time so be careful with highs.

Clever jump backs work to, she has some range problems. 44a is good regarding this as well.

hotnikkelz, thank you for explaining why 3b psl2 works. Very nice arsenal addition against short range to mid range weapon reach characters.

 

[hotnikkelz]

Kvasir.
36 damage i'd say is low only considering all the disadvantages of the move wholistically.
There lies a problem with your logic, if i'm to use it at tip range to be safer, then i'm going to be partially hitting more than i'd like no? cuz the move advances a bit. The question still remains, why use this move?

Maybe i am a bit harsh to the move but that's cuz 33K does what this move does SO much better...albeit it does less damage.

The worst thing about 22B is it's linearity, u use it at tip, use it close = BT vs step. >90% of the time you will get stepped, and the risk/reward just wasn't worth it when that happens...and it looks embarassing to whiff too :/

I think you're completely wrong on the 6A issue, please recheck again if you get the chance. Try GIing ANY horizontal of any speed after it hits please....and if you were successful, please report that said horizontal for me thanks. I remember personally testing this thoroughly with a SHITLOAD of things and not once was i able to GI when 6A HITS. (not CH and block) Just on regular hit. I would be really ashamed if i'm wrong on this one :)
It is a 6A problem cuz of the frame data, 3B doesn't have this issue i can psl3x2 here. The reason why u think it's a RO problem is cuz most attacks that lead to RO, just don't have great frame data.

Tactu:
I played against Taki quite a bit, her AA and 6B is serious bidness. The speed difference between them is remarable. I use 44AB a lot vs her and 2A of course. Play carefully is the ebst advice i can giveespecially if they know how to use AA well. Try to outspace her and stagger

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

Im with johnny on 6A psl3! Ive never been able to GI anything after 6A. 3B, 4B or I guess anything ending in RO or BL psl3 comes out much faster. or at least activates much faster.

Speaking of psl3. Does anyone really use psl3 thinking they will actually GI something. As for me is use it for my "mind fuck" strategy. specially after a landed LI , ill psl3 for just a second and psl1/2 into something else depending what Im training my opp for. pretty much just for "flashy-ness"

so does anyone else actually apply psl3 for what it is made for. or are you like me and just mind fuck people with it. if you do when and where do you put it?


and johnny i love how you used the word "wholisticly" twice within a few posts. cheers my friend

HRD

 

[Fhwoarang]

Im with johnny on 6A psl3! Ive never been able to GI anything after 6A. 3B, 4B or I guess anything ending in RO or BL psl3 comes out much faster.

The thing with PSL3 GI window is that every attack has its own GI active window.

At the begging, I though it was frame date, but it isn't; at least not in all cases. Try to use PSL3 GI after RC B, and you need to wait like 40 frames or something for the GI window to activate; from 3B, despite being frame advantage, the GI works really good (against fast pokes); same with BB and 6A on block.

It's all about the porpouse of the attack; I guess that's what Namco wants with the PSL3 GI. If you don't understand this, you won't succed with this property.

 

[Tactu]

Tactu:
I played against Taki quite a bit, her AA and 6B is serious bidness. The speed difference between them is remarable. I use 44AB a lot vs her and 2A of course. Play carefully is the ebst advice i can giveespecially if they know how to use AA well. Try to outspace her and stagger

I'm having issues with 44AB on block...my comp is GI'ing the 2nd hit maybe 90% of the time. Why oh why is this GI'able??? Do you often just do the 44A?