SCV may still need patches...

I felt 1.03 was released too soon after 1.02.

Pantocrator said:
People cried and complained like crazy about Siegfried before the release of the game. Here is the result.
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Appreciate this insight. Moves having no hurtbox at close range, etc... I also recall quite a bit of worry of OP siegfried before the game was released, but I don't recall if they were from beta testing, the game guide writers, or just people trying out the game during the namco events.

Slade said:
Patching the shit out of games is not a solution. Just look at MK9 and Injustice.
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Explain please.
 
I'll go on a limb and give my interpretation of Slade's comment.

The thing with NRS made games is that they patch the game very often, these patches can also often change a character dramatically so the meta of the game is never really dived into and established because it keeps changing. I think SCV as it is now is a good example on how a community adapts to the current meta and makes the most of it, considering many characters have recently been subject to a paradigm shift in how they are viewed in the whole of the game (Aeon being a large one). Many go "whats the point of learning all this when its just gonna change again in like 3 weeks?"

Also, Siegfried is a strong character.
 
by "frequent" how frequent do you mean ? is it literally 3 week patches ?

I was thinking 3 patches in 1st year, then an annual patch every year until the next version gets released.
 
injustice hasn't been nearly as bad as MK9 was. mk9 had over 10 patches in like 4 months. they called them "hotfixes" instead of patches because rather than altering any of the game functions or features, they just tinkered with move properties. basically what NRS does is save a ton of money on QA testers because...well...we do it for free.
 
WuHT said:
just people trying out the game during the namco events
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-This one.
Most of people didn't even play a beta during an event, but just watch some videos. And that was enough for them to say who was broken or not. (some people are still doing this btw...)

-We never had any information about the "officials" beta testers opinions.

-And for the guide writer, at least he tried.... http://8wayrun.com/threads/archive-siegfried-pre-release-discussion.9299/page-3#post-323249

I'm still thinking that this game is far to be balanced. But Namco is not the only responsable. The community is involved too.
I guess the worst is that some people are still thinking that it's totally balanced, that Raphael is totally ok, that Siegfried is strong and solid (he has a huge sword after all). I wonder how those peoples are able to autopersuade themself that way. Maybe to avoid any cognitive dissonance to enjoy better this game.
But beside this the success of this game in competition is pretty bad in comparaison to SCIV (who was not perfect at all btw).
I said this is the "worst", because it just send to Namco the message that the game is perfectly fine, that they did a good job, and that players are satisfied with this.
This is the best way to have a very bad SCVI, with the same mistakes.
 
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Pantocrator said:
-This one.
Most of people didn't even play a beta during an event, but just watch some videos. And that was enough for them to say who was broken or not. (some people are still doing this btw...)

-We never had any information about the "officials" beta testers opinions.

-And for the guide writer, at least he tried.... http://8wayrun.com/threads/archive-siegfried-pre-release-discussion.9299/page-3#post-323249

I'm still thinking that this game is far to be balanced. But Namco is not the only responsable. The community is involved too.
I guess the worst is that some people are still thinking that it's totally balanced, that Raphael is totally ok, that Siegfried is strong and solid (he has a huge sword after all). I wonder how those peoples are able to autopersuade themself that way. Maybe to avoid any cognitive dissonance to enjoy better this game.
But beside this the success of this game in competition is pretty bad in comparaison to SCIV (who was not perfect at all btw).
I said this is the "worst", because it just send to Namco the message that the game is perfectly fine, that they did a good job, and that players are satisfied with this.
This is the best way to have a very bad SCVI, with the same mistakes.
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Most norcal players and socal players had the chance to play the game before it came out. Early opinions of the game in the first month yielded very messed up opinions. People thought Viola was bottom tier and Nightmare was dabes. I think most people can see the error in that logic now and probably wish they didn't buff Viola in the patch because she clearly didn't need it.

Also, I genuinely like the game. How the fuck can you tell me what I like and don't like? I have zero conflicting ideas when it comes to playing this game. I just straight like it. It's true, things like balance and tiers can be argued. But overall I think your opinion goes far away from the standard norms of thinking. Most people agree this game is very balanced. Almost every character is viable in tourney play. If you don't think Raph is good, watch Jimbonator play him. If you don't think Sieg is good, watch Shen Yuan or someone else who isn't you play him. Both those characters have all the tools they need to win.
 
The community is to blame for shaping opinions on balance, and it's in precisely the "if I can't win, the character must suck" manner that Panto is so helpfully demonstrating for us. That's why we got wtflol Viola--shitty players who think they're good tend to be the loudest loudmouths, and, alas, the squeaky wheels get the lion's share of the grease. The issue is moot because SCV isn't gonna be patched again, but for future reference people would all be way better served checking their goddamn baselessly-inflated egos at the door.

Also, as an addendum, pretty much every prediction I've made about characters, tiers, etc, has turned out to be true. Everyone should feel free to defer to my judgment on such matters.
 
Hates said:
The community is to blame for shaping opinions on balance, and it's in precisely the "if I can't win, the character must suck" manner that Panto is so helpfully demonstrating for us. That's why we got wtflol Viola--shitty players who think they're good tend to be the loudest loudmouths, and, alas, the squeaky wheels get the lion's share of the grease. The issue is moot because SCV isn't gonna be patched again, but for future reference people would all be way better served checking their goddamn baselessly-inflated egos at the door.

Also, as an addendum, pretty much every prediction I've made about characters, tiers, etc, has turned out to be true. Everyone should feel free to defer to my judgment on such matters.
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But My Ego Raises My Height By 4 Inches...
 
I don't even know what lessons we learned from this entire thing.

Should we tell people who get the opportunity to try beta/demo to be more conservative and don't say that character X is absurdly too strong/weak for fear of overcompensation by the balance team at project soul ? I just don't want people quoting me a couple of years from now lol
 
Alex.J said:
If you don't think Raph is good, watch Jimbonator play him. If you don't think Sieg is good, watch Shen Yuan or someone else who isn't you play him. Both those characters have all the tools they need to win.
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I already did. But watching by saying "just look he won some match" doesn't mean anything. You have to put your analysis deeper. The main question is "why did it happen ?". I invite you to watch them again, and try to answer this question properly.


Anyway, tier raisonement computed with tournament results is a big mistake. (or casual results, or online results...)
-Because the human factor has still something to do (basics, mind game, management of the preasure etc)
-The game is still young, no one is playing every MU properly. The general level is still low.
(exemple just to remember :
, is zaz-ivy balanced is SCIV ?)
The tier list can have an impact on tournament results, but the opposite is not true (for instance it's not because OmegaDR and Keev won some tournaments with Nightmare that this character had to be top tier, and that he derserved to be nerf)


Shen yuan, are you talking about this alpha player ?
Are you kidding me ? :-)
But, yeah, at the beginning of the game he played Siegfried a little, you're right. Here some vids, what conclusions can you do with ?
But well, serious question now, what do you know about Siegfried ?? Do you know something about his MU ? In this case maybe you can come in Siegfried SA and explain everyones how to manage them ! Or did you just watch some shen yuan vids one year ago to get this conclusion ? Or any other Siegfried player who was winning some matchs ? Did you do the same with raphael or any other character to get your general conclusion ?



About what you like and how, I don't know, and to be honest I absolutely don't care. :-) . I guess you misunderstood me.
The standard norms of thinking ? Are you talking about your standard norms of thinking ?
Most of people think that the game is balanced ? is that a "feeling" or did you make a serious study about this ?
On my side I know that a lot of players left the game or change their main characters only because of the balance. In some countries Viola is banned... Can all of this happen if most of people think that the game is balanced ? in this case why ?


Edit : to avoid any personnal attack. my results at SCV are better than they were at SCIV. In SCIV Siegfried was totally ok IMO, a solid mid tier. I still think that SCIV was not balanced either. Anyway my opinion about the balance is an overall conclusion.
 
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All of this...

If you guys knew how Daishi really consider tier and characters strengths, you wouldnt dare asking for a patch or "re-balance" haha

Had a little chat about SC4 balance in 2010 with him, back in Japan. Why Rock or Mina suck so much, and shit. The answers were unbelievable =)
 
Saitoh said:
All of this...

If you guys knew how Daishi really consider tier and characters strengths, you wouldnt dare asking for a patch or "re-balance" haha

Had a little chat about SC4 balance in 2010 with him, back in Japan. Why Rock or Mina suck so much, and shit. The answers were unbelievable =)
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What did he say about them?
 
Saitoh said:
All of this...

If you guys knew how Daishi really consider tier and characters strengths, you wouldnt dare asking for a patch or "re-balance" haha

Had a little chat about SC4 balance in 2010 with him, back in Japan. Why Rock or Mina suck so much, and shit. The answers were unbelievable =)
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come on! you can't tease us this and then just leave.

upon reflection, does anyone have the memory, and all-round character knowledge to assert whether pre-patch sc5 or post-patch sc5 was better balanced ?
 
Well I don't understand the people who played SC3 or SC4, and then leave SC5 for balance issues.
Play what you want, like what you want and quit want you don't like, but this "reason" seams a little... strange.
 
I asked why Rock and Mina are so weak. I had those two in mind because it is beyond ridiculous how weak they are. The answer was (translated by his friend, Utoh) :

" Can you imagine Rock being stronger or even as strong as Astaroth ? Or Mina being on the same level as Kilik ? "
He meant on a lore point of view.

Yes, those characters were made weak on purpose because they're supposed to be "weak" in the calibur story, anyway in Daishi's eyes. That's also probably why Raphael is constantly low tier since SC3 or Talim. I dunno for sure for others characters but you know it's a factor in tier balancing, anyway it was for SC4.

The second factor is more well known but I guess a lot of people still dont know this (or refuse to admit it). Daishi dont like "too balanced" games. He likes when there's obviously overpowered characters and weaker characters.
Why ? Because he thinks that makes the game exciting, especially in tournament were upsets can happen.

He even said so in public interviews at first for SC5 pre-release press communications, but quickly backdashed from this stance when people outside of Japan asked for a balanced game. Then Tago and Daishi said they were going to make a balanced game and even make it a top priority.

That's for the facts.

Now on my PoV :

I think he never really changed his mind on this, and it shows on SC5 tier list and balance (Algol - Mitsurugi or Dampierre / Raphael).

Also the lore reason is awkward to say the least. The idea about "intended imbalance" between characters for the show and hype in tournament maybe valid I guess, but I dont share it.
 
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Kalas said:
Well I don't understand the people who played SC3 or SC4, and then leave SC5 for balance issues.
Play what you want, like what you want and quit want you don't like, but this "reason" seems a little... strange.
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A lot of people take patch notes way too seriously and determine a character being ''bad'' due to a couple of minor changes and can't adapt from it.
 
Saitoh said:
I asked why Rock and Mina are so weak. I had those two in mind because it is beyond ridiculous how weak they are. The answer was (translated by his friend, Utoh) :

" Can you imagine Rock being stronger or even as strong as Astaroth ? Or Mina being on the same level as Kilik ? "
He meant on a lore point of view.

Yes, those characters were made weak on purpose because they're supposed to be "weak" in the calibur story, anyway in Daishi's eyes. That's also probably why Raphael is constantly low tier since SC3 or Talim. I dunno for sure for others characters but you know it's a factor in tier balancing, anyway it was for SC4.

The second factor is more well known but I guess a lot of people still dont know this (or refuse to admit it). Daishi dont like "too balanced" games. He likes when there's obviously overpowered characters and weaker characters.
Why ? Because he thinks that makes the game exciting, especially in tournament were upsets can happen.

He even said so in public interviews at first for SC5 pre-release press communications, but quickly backdashed from this stance when people outside of Japan asked for a balanced game. Then Tago and Daishi said they were going to make a balanced game and even make it a top priority.

That's for the facts.

Now on my PoV :

I think he never really changed his mind on this, and it shows on SC5 tier list and balance (Algol - Mitsurugi or Dampierre / Raphael).

Also the lore reason is awkward to say the least. The idea about "intended unbalance" between characters for the show and hype in tournament maybe valid I guess, but I dont share it.
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He didnt do a good enough Job if Pyrrha is top tier Kappa

I also sincerely dont believe for a second that that whiny bitch presumebly Killed Voldo. What a slap to the face
 
Pantocrator said:
I already did. But watching by saying "just look he won some match" doesn't mean anything. You have to put your analysis deeper. The main question is "why did it happen ?". I invite you to watch them again, and try to answer this question properly.


Anyway, tier raisonement computed with tournament results is a big mistake. (or casual results, or online results...)
-Because the human factor has still something to do (basics, mind game, management of the preasure etc)
-The game is still young, no one is playing every MU properly. The general level is still low.
Click to expand...
Do you have a single fact to back that up?
Can YOU answer it properly?

-"But well, serious question now, what do you know about Siegfried ?"
What do YOU know about SCV Siegfried? Every goddamn post has a massive negative connotation attached to it when you speak of this character. I cannot fathom how people place him so low when so many of his tools are simply incredible.

So much has been said about this yet nothing changes, and then you wonder why people bark and ridicule you? Seriously? Come to NEC. I almost want to lab hard with Siegfried to show how inept you guys are.

Good lord.
 
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