Soulcalibur VI DLC Discussion Thread

[Klimat]

Honestly, I don't think Hilde's addition would change anything, continuity-wise. Sure, she didn't set out until Algol awakened, but Talim's entire story in SC6 is set before she goes off on her own journey, so there's no reason they can't do the same for Hilde. I very much doubt Hilde didn't have any combat experience prior to SC4, so I think writing in some fights in a short story for her is entirely doable without changing much of her overall story.

From SC wiki:

"Hilde was born as the daughter of the king of Wolfkrone, a fictional European kingdom hidden in Germany. Her father, described as a formerly stoic, but kind-hearted, fair man, lost his sanity to the destructive rains of the Evil Seed, virtually transforming him into an animal. After he fell into madness, the king was sentenced to live out the rest of his days in an isolated chamber, located at the very top of the Wolfkrone castle tower. With the king driven to insanity, the kingdom turned to the remaining candidate for leadership, forcing Hilde upon the throne despite her young age. By gathering allies and power, Hilde was able to resist the invading forces of the Azure Knight.

As Hilde devoted much of her youth to protecting and guiding Wolfkrone, she didn’t experience a true childhood, and was forced to handle the burdens of adulthood. Hilde disciplined herself, becoming emotionally and physically stronger over the passing years and leading her country on the front lines of the battlefield."

It's already all there starting from the Evil Seed incident.

 

[AMillionHP]

Considering that 2B didn't have a Soul Chronicle, why would the DLC characters have one?

They think she's on a different page because she's a guest. I dont understand the length some of us are going here to justify logic. On one hand we say the developers must prioritize story and continuity because there are a few things done with the game that already suggest... but then on the other hand we write off contradictory evidence like this that says otherwise.

Rest assured, they would have story material for 2B if they indeed were focusing on story. Saying that would be ridiculous is like admitting 2B is ridiculous in the first place.

 

[mokamoka827]

Considering that 2B didn't have a Soul Chronicle, why would the DLC characters have one?

My assumption would be because they're actually Soulcalibur characters and not guests. There is the possibility that 2B didn't get a Soul Chronicle because she was a DLC guest and neither a launch character nor a legacy character.
But, of course, it's entirely possible that the others will get the same treatment as 2B. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[sytus]

a fictional European kingdom hidden in Germany

Historically incorrect, it's a state in the Holy Roman Empire because Germany doesn't even exist yet. The wiki really needs to be updated on this and it's not as if Soul Calibur ignores this, even Soul Calibur Legends specifically mentions the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[Crash X]

Dear god this place is turning into april 201, everyone seems to be speculating and flaming each other. Can we like cut down on this? Almost any new character and DLC pack is good right? we're all fans here, no need to yell (hehe) at each other about what character codenamed after a verb is going to be. Maybe it's just going to be easier to just sit back and see how everything turns out? Otherwise, we're gonna end up getting this thread locked down just like the other thread. -_-

I was thinking more like cut down on the large paragraphs of text. But that works too.

 

[FluffyQuack]

I'd have to know more technical details about this supposed running bug (could I impose upon you for a link?) to provide for what exactly may have been going on there; it's possible that some timing values were preserved across successive versions of the same move, but that is not the same thing as the animation itself having been in some fashion "imported" across successive generations. We're talking about a span of games created with very different variations of software operating on entirely different architecture. These movesets do in fact have to be reconstituted for new generations of engines and hardware; they are not just a simple discreet file which can be plucked out, converted, and dropped into the engine (well, actually, sometimes they can be, but not like that, across such divergent platforms over such a period of time). Would that this was not necessary--we'd get games a lot faster and they'd just get increasingly larger.

That is actually doable with just about every format. The thing is, the core of most formats hasn't really changed in nearly 20 years. A mesh is still a list of vertex positions and a list of polygons referencing those vertices. A rig is still a list of joint positions references vertices. An animation is still a list of positions for those joints. Now then, there's been new information added to these formats over the years but the basics are still the same and it's super doable to make converters for these formats. An alternate solution is not to convert the formats, but to make the new engine support the same ones (though not really applicable to most graphics asset formats). I think they've done that a little bit with SC6 as there are many files as the exact same format as in SC4/5 (I see AI, motion, and other files with the exact filenames as back in SC4).

I'm too lazy to find examples of this, but if you compare meshes and animations with previous games, it's very apparent they're re-using a lot of assets. One funny thing is that there's one extremely specific glitch with Sophitia's 66B animation which has existed in every game (including SC6) since SC2.

 

[WuHT]

The ol' glitch where she doesn't really hold her sword during the apex of her swing

 

[Rusted Blade]

Dear god this place is turning into april 201, everyone seems to be speculating and flaming each other. Can we like cut down on this? Almost any new character and DLC pack is good right? we're all fans here, no need to yell (hehe) at each other about what character codenamed after a verb is going to be. Maybe it's just going to be easier to just sit back and see how everything turns out? Otherwise, we're gonna end up getting this thread locked down just like the other thread. -_-

I don't think the heat is really that high--at least, I haven't perceived it as such. Debate has been vigorous at times, but I think everyone is keeping things in perspective. Nobody is reaching to personal attacks or expressly insulting language, so I think "flaming" is rather an overstatement. People can disagree at length (and in strong terms) about an objective evaluation of a technical or empirical question without the situation becoming incivil, and that's exactly what's been going on here as far as I've observed. I don't think there's anything that would attract the concern of mods even on a forum where admins are known to be aggressive about shutting down debate--let alone this place where they (quite appropriately, in my opinion) take a hands off approach until people have really lost control of themselves and taken things to a disruptive extreme.

All that said, a lot of the arguments that can be advanced have been advanced, and we're retrodding a lot of the same territory on questions that won't be answered for a while. But meh, as far as that goes, any discussion at this level about a video game is the definitions of spending too much time obsessing over something that is questionably worth it!

That is actually doable with just about every format. The thing is, the core of most formats hasn't really changed in nearly 20 years. A mesh is still a list of vertex positions and a list of polygons referencing those vertices. A rig is still a list of joint positions references vertices. An animation is still a list of positions for those joints. Now then, there's been new information added to these formats over the years but the basics are still the same and it's super doable to make converters for these formats. An alternate solution is not to convert the formats, but to make the new engine support the same ones (though not really applicable to most graphics asset formats). I think they've done that a little bit with SC6 as there are many files as the exact same format as in SC4/5 (I see AI, motion, and other files with the exact filenames as back in SC4).

I'm too lazy to find examples of this, but if you compare meshes and animations with previous games, it's very apparent they're re-using a lot of assets. One funny thing is that there's one extremely specific glitch with Sophitia's 66B animation which has existed in every game (including SC6) since SC2.

First, thanks for the insight as someone who has examined this matter in detail. But perhaps I should clarify what I meant by the highlighted statement. As you rightly point out, there's no per se barrier to converting a set of vertices, hitboxes mapped to regions created from the polygons referencing those vertices/spatial points, models deformed across the mesh, and animations which are defined by the rendered movement for each of these elements across a span of time. My only point is that these are not stored as just one discrete file. So while you can convert in this fashion (provided the conversion tools are worked into the development suite you are working on, as nobody is going to be developing that stuff in house), my assumption has always been, with regard to Soul Calibur, that it is not the most efficient approach and generally avoided.

Now clearly the Sophitia situation (thank you for the link, btw, @Klimat) shows that this is in fact done for some legacy moves (and presumably many more than I ever expected), but a side by side comparison of any character in any two subsequent games illustrates movesets are substantially rebuilt each game. I don't know how much of this is about efficiencies (the concern that you lose more time on the back end by conforming animations to the timing needed in the new game as a whole than you save by not having to redefine the moveset from scratch) and how of it is just smart design priorities (not wanting to get locked into repetitive formats for movesets that drag down innovation in the gameplay, especially because of the need to balance differing rosters operating under novel mechanics), but my point is that ultimately, no matter how much a team may want to preserve an entire roster from a previous game, it's never going to be a simple matter of just porting a bunch of assets over. Clearly, the process is more a hybridization of old assets and newly developed ones than I have ever appreciated, but I suspect still very much more the latter than the former (though as to that, I am curious to hear your thoughts arising out of your comparative observations). And I remain convinced that a SCVII that preserves the entire base cast from VI and merely adds to it is unlikely in the extreme. Much as it pains me to say it, because I'd kill for a near-comprehensive Soulcalibur.

 

[Rusted Blade]

Historically incorrect, it's a state in the Holy Roman Empire because Germany doesn't even exist yet. The wiki really needs to be updated on this and it's not as if Soul Calibur ignores this, even Soul Calibur Legends specifically mentions the Holy Roman Empire.

Well, the toponym "Germany" actual predates the modern state by millennia, having been used by the Romans (the classical era Romans, that is) to refer to an expansive region in Northern Europe, which name was adopted by (or used externally to describe) a number of discrete cultures, areas and political/quasi-national entities in sporadic and inconsistent ways throughout much of European history. This before you even add in the divergences of how these geographical and social constructs were described by historians after the fact. So it's not necessarily historically inaccurate to describe something as having been within the borders of "Germany" prior to the rise of the modern state which adopted the name. It's just atypical and not particularly precise.

That said, I believe that most Wikias are open to random editing (or at least have open registration?); why not change it to Holy Roman Empire? I bet that place is infested with fanboys ready to go to the mat over trivial things, but I still bet that change goes unremarked upon, and you could always try.

 

[DanteSC3]

Considering that 2B didn't have a Soul Chronicle, why would the DLC characters have one?

Considering that 2B's story, per her trailer, takes place in the year 11945, that hardly fits on the timeline. Tira had a story, 2B did not, so we have 50/50. If Cassandra gets a story, then it would follow that Amy and the other characters who are in this timeline would also get stories. It's not unreasonable to understand why 2B didn't get a story and yet still expect that the rest will get stories. If Cassandra doesn't get a story, then I will concede that the rest won't get stories, but if they don't, then it would be a big waste, because narrative is one of the strong selling points of SoulCalibur VI, retelling the story in greater detail, so to have the other characters added who are relevant to this timeline and the story and not give them actual story content is just... why?

 

[Rusted Blade]

Considering that 2B's story, per her trailer, takes place in the year 11945, that hardly fits on the timeline. Tira had a story, 2B did not, so we have 50/50. If Cassandra gets a story, then it would follow that Amy and the other characters who are in this timeline would also get stories. It's not unreasonable to understand why 2B didn't get a story and yet still expect that the rest will get stories. If Cassandra doesn't get a story, then I will concede that the rest won't get stories, but if they don't, then it would be a big waste, because narrative is one of the strong selling points of SoulCalibur VI, retelling the story in greater detail, so to have the other characters added who are relevant to this timeline and the story and not give them actual story content is just... why?

Well, the same was true of Heihachi, Spawn, Link, Vader, Yoda, The Apprentice, Ezio, and Geralt; they all come from a different period of time / another reality altogether and they still get as much story as anyone in the games featuring their respective appearances--wandering around getting in the standard contrived fights. Well maybe Ezio had no plot? But he's no different than most of the SCV cast in that respect. I agree that it's hard to know for certain whether 2B's lack of a story mode is indicative of what will be done with other DLC characters, but I think the "timeline" argument is insufficient to indicate anything further with certainty, given Geralt's fully fleshed out story mode.

I personally am very much rooting for them not doing any more of those Soul Chronicles. Those were the height of lazy storytelling; maybe more than the average SC game gets, and yet I find I'd rather have a few skimpy lines of dialogue (in-engine before and after fights) than hours upon hours of poorly written and delivered banter between the primary characters and random cookie-cutter NPCs, punctuated by (more personal but still quite goofily contextualized) encounters between the main protagonists. More consequentially, the more they have to do for each character, the fewer DLC characters we will get overall--as they can only devote so much of their studio teams (or financial resources if they outsource these modes) to the DLC content total--and the smaller the profit margin for Namco (given they have already set a price point / sold licenses), thus reducing the likelihood of the serialized model becoming an established norm. It's a whole lot of misplaced emphasis for a fighter. This game already has plenty of melodrama plot for those interested in it; I hope they have the good sense to let the DLC content focus on roster expansion (including movesets they were able to fully invest in, in terms of depth and balance) and CaS materials. The DLC characters can have their day in the sun, plot wise, come SCVII, for those who care about story.

 

[DanteSC3]

@Rusted Blade
2B is different, though. Geralt pops into SoulCalibur's world and time through a portal, so his events are literally taking place concurrently with the rest of the story, so it fits the timeline. Ezio wasn't explained, really, aside from being a glitch in the Animus, but he'd still literally be transported into the world. The Star Wars characters also came in through portals. Heihachi, Spawn, and Link really weren't explained at all, but they didn't really have stories like the others, but they're likely also portals. 2B, on the other hand, the implication of her trailer is that Ivy outlives everyone else, and is still alive in the year 11945. 2B didn't travel back to 1590 to meet the rest of the cast, so that's an event of gameplay and story segregation, as the only character she should be able to fight in continuity would be Ivy, due to her appearance. It makes perfect sense why 2B doesn't have a story on the timeline, since she isn't there.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about Soul Chronicle, though, because I rather liked it. It contextualizes each character's involvement in the story, no matter how big or small, and gives everyone their moment, without relying on power fantasy and what-if scenarios, as was the case in the past. That was why the story of SoulCalibur was always so hard to follow, because you didn't really know which stories were and were not canon, not until the next game came out. Some of the stories are naturally stronger or weaker than others, but it's nice to see what really happened for everyone instead of just hearing about it later. Like Raphael's, that was one of the best of the bunch, given as Raphael is one of the more unsung heroes of the franchise, always being behind the scenes but also being one of the more important characters, in the long run. Seeing his origins with Amy let us see a tender side of him, before he succumbed to the madness, knowing his affection for Amy is genuine, and not twisted or perverse. I also enjoyed Seong Mi-na's, being a playful jaunt that was far less important in the grand scheme of things, but it still felt like an apt characterization of her, and seeing a little bit of Hwang doing his best to keep her on the straight and narrow, was cute and makes me want to see the story from Hwang's point of view, like there are some other stories having pairs of points of view, like Grøh and Azwel. I really hope this continues moving forward, both with the DLC and with the next games in the series.

The problem with giving the DLC characters no story here, and letting them have their story in the next game, is that you're missing out on parts of their story, which is more important for some than it is others. If the characters are Cassandra, Amy, Rock, Li Long, Yun-seong, Setsuka, Aeon, and Hwang, I mean. Of those, I would rank Rock, Li Long, Aeon, and Hwang pretty high in relevance to the pre-SoulCalibur II timeline. Just under them would be Amy, followed by Cassandra, Yun-seong, and Setsuka. The first four would have their original stories fleshed out, just as everyone else has in this game, and so they're pretty straightforward. Amy's would be seeing her side of Raphael's story, maybe a bit less relevant, but interesting to see her perspective on things, particularly in that time-skip part of Raphael's story or at the very beginning, to learn why exactly it is that she hates soldiers, specifically. Cassandra and Yun-seong stories would be comparable to Talim, just pre-adventure type stuff, nothing too big, but still neat to see. Setsuka is a mystery, as she might could be brought up to Amy's level, if her origin story is contextualized and actually fleshed out, because right now, her story is the weakest of the entire cast, so it would be her chance to rise up and actually have a story that we can rally behind. Otherwise, it wouldn't be much other than her training with her master, perhaps her master showing signs of injury, but not dying yet, not telling her that it was Mitsurugi.

Beyond that, though, your assumption of them getting stories is predicated on them not being cut to be resold again as DLC in SoulCalibur VII, which I also hope doesn't come to pass, because then we start getting in an endless vicious cycle of the characters never getting story or being relevant and not being on equal footing with everyone else. The serialized characters don't really need to be the norm, if they're not putting every character on the same level playing field. Everyone added as DLC should be treated with the same level of love and care as the main cast, and cutting them in the game right after that would be quite disrespectful, especially if they didn't get content to begin with.

 

[Rusted Blade]

It contextualizes each character's involvement in the story, no matter how big or small, and gives everyone their moment, without relying on power fantasy and what-if scenarios, as was the case in the past. That was why the story of SoulCalibur was always so hard to follow, because you didn't really know which stories were and were not canon, not until the next game came out.

That is without question a true and worthwhile observation. It's by no means the only thing that kept one from taking the story too seriously, but it was certainly a significant barrier in its own right. The thing about that is, for me (and I suspect a lot of players) it was still a non-issue. I've often said that the best thing about the Soul Calibur story is that it almost actively works to have you not take it too seriously; it encourages you to let it blend into the background as semi-nonsensical noise that allows you to get a sense of the characters but doesn't encourage much concern for them beyond the attitude they are bringing into that bout.

Now it's not that story isn't important to me in a lot of different kinds of media, including games. Story is actually of paramount importance to me in a lot of contexts, and it can often make or break a game. But the story about teleporting devil pirates, lizardmen, golems, knights wielding weapons twice the mass of their own bodies, space warriors, and a ninja-demon-Robin-Hood-style-bandit with a magical wooden cyborg arm was probably never going to be anything one should take too terribly seriously. I mean, there are fantasy narratives with such tropes that break one's expectations and find a way to make you care about the characters and/or become immersed in their exaggerated reality, but Soulcalibur never made the mistake of thinking it should try to be that.

And it's not as if the "which of these stories is cannon?" issue was the only part of the format actively working against any element of dramatic tension being established. Up until SCV, not a single main character ever died in the narrative, despite constantly facing off against one-another in high stakes epic battles for the supposed fate of the world. Ok, Nightmare sort of died over and over again, but only to be brought back in some form with an alacrity that would make a comic book super hero blush. There was no weight to anything because there was never any consequence. Everything (including paths for vengeance and quests for salvation) was restored to the status quo ante by the next game (or, indeed, as soon as you booted up the next character's story mode in the same game, which would have obvious inconsistencies with the last one you played). And honestly, that fits? How else would things operate in a world where you can stick your seven foot sword half way through someone's chest, throw them off a three hundred foot precipice, and they weren't even winded by the time they scaled there way back up for "Battle 2--FIGHT!"? The format doesn't encourage a serious story, so the almost active trolling of the concept of their own narrative by the devs themselves always just seemed to fit perfectly.

Now obviously Okubo and co. didn't get the "Don't take yourself too seriously" memo, lol. Or more realistically, they responded to complaints about V in good faith, and since they had to reboot to save the franchise from that hot mess, they figured they would make a solid effort at trying to bring some consistency and coherence to the bedlam. Well, bully for them, and best of luck to them in trying to recover something compelling out of all of that--I certainly think they did as well as is possible under the circumstances and given the considerable constraints. I can't say it was enough to stir a single emotion for me except for frustration that they didn't add an auto-skip feature for those tedious light novel sequences between matches. But obviously it's a step up in terms of cohesiveness for those who take the SC story more seriously.

But we're in the post launch now. And realistically, as a matter of basic economics, more story content required for DLC characters means a smaller roster overall. That's really simple arithmetic and a straightforward conclusion for me: no thank you! The reason our beginning roster was the smallest its been since SCI was precisely because they had to accommodate such an extensive story for everyone they did include in the base game. And I just can't agree that the result, however much an improvement on what was present in the past, was a good return on that loss. Roster size, stage selection, CaS assets, they are all at twenty year lows in order for them to have been able to afford the time and resources necessary to placate the casuals and story-focused veterans who demanded a full-scale story as if this was an RPG. Y'all got more than could reasonably have been expected of a game of this genre, given the limited budget a SC game gets. I think it's time to not look your gift horse in the mouth and expect no more in terms of story for this entry, so the devs can focus on giving the hardcore gameplay-fixated players what we want: as many well balanced movesets, new stages, and p'rtty CaS assets as the season passes can deliver at this point. And you better not skip buying them if they don't get soul chronicle narratives; we all played a premium for your melodrama, you can invest in our fighters! ;P

My advice? Apply that same willingness to flex the narrative rules for 2B that you use above to any DLC characters that follow: you presumably have no problem with 2B fighting anybody else in addition to Ivy as just a part of enjoying the actual multiplayer out of context for the story. The same can be done for Rock, Hwang, Li Long and so forth. Think of them as bonus fighters who wouldn't have appeared otherwise, not characters who got short-shrift in the plot.

 

[TresDias]

Roster size, stage selection, CaS assets, they are all at twenty year lows in order for them to have been able to afford the time and resources necessary to placate the casuals and story-focused veterans who demanded a full-scale story as if this was an RPG. Y'all got more than could reasonably have been expected of a game of this genre, given the limited budget a SC game gets. I think it's time to not look your gift horse in the mouth and not expect any more in terms of story for this entry, so the devs can focus on giving the rest of us what we want: as many well balanced movesets, new stages and p'rtty CaS assets as the season passes can deliver at this point.

I must be a greedy bastard, 'cause I want both. =P

It's not that your point lacks any validity (it almost feels like we story & lore aficionados have been spoiled this go round) or that it isn't well taken (I recognize that we in the fandom have different tastes and priorities, as different things about the series drew many of us in or appeal to us now), but as someone who was drawn in by the setting, the character designs, and both aspects of the premise ("A fighting game with weapons and a zombie pirate with an evil sword???") I'm of the opinion that this attention to lore, storytelling and characterization has helped and can only help make SC a better product.

It's only because of how grossly overlooked story and characterization has historically been for SC that it seems like we're being spoiled now. I feel that these components were unwisely neglected in the past, especially with SCIV, and that an attempt at doing it right was SCV's saving grace -- or could have been had development not been rushed. So, that sentiment in hand, I don't really feel like it's time as a diehard fan from as fsr back as the "Soul Edge" arcade days to say "Okay, I guess we got enough story and can let you guys get back to doing that other thing -- the one that actually matters."

Quite to the contrary, my reaction is closer to "About time y'all, damn! Now stick to it!"

So I want consistency in this regard (i.e. keep the Soul Chronicles coming), and I don't want them resting on their laurels now.

That being said, given how much they have done up to now, if this truly has to be an either/or proposition, I'd be happy with them focusing their energy and other resources on characters and movesets, knowing they can give other characters yet to get on the roster their time to shine in the next game. I'm greedy, not selfish. =P

I'm honestly not convinced it is an either/or proposition, though. It sounds like they decided some time ago on which (classic) characters would be rounding out the roster, and I strongly suspect that this is as big as the roster was ever going to get for this installment, regardless of how well players took to the DLC.

In other words, I don't think SCIV and SCV characters were ever a serious consideration for this game, nor are they now.

I think the plan was always to focus on the characters at the core of SCI, II and III's plot and gameplay variety, then bring in the rest of the characters contemporary to that era of the series as time and initial DLC sales allowed. Obviously they weren't going to rule it out if initial DLC sales were very strong and a chant rose up of "Give us Hilde or burn in Hell!" -- but I simply don't think they were ever thinking about prioritizing her over characters from the first decade of the series.

And I really don't think they were ever considering bringing Algol in this early.

We're simply fortunate that it seems to have worked out that we'll get the whole classic roster before moving ahead. And since -- as you have pointed out -- we probably can't expect SCVII any time soon anyway because of a new installment of "Tekken" taking priority, any work they might do now that makes the SCVII workload lighter down the road couldn't be a bad thing.

See, fans of the different aspects of SC can come together! We shouldn't be divided or crapping on each other. It's "Tekken" fans we should be crapping on, and getting Namco to immediately start work on SCVII. =P

Regardless, I have to admit, disconnected as I am from taking this story very seriously on the whole, I have to admit, Raph's story is a little tragic. He was always more than a little bit of a douche, and yet he clearly has a father's love for Amy, and his drive to protect her plays a role in his downfall. I mean, it might actually be a meaninfgul story development if we get to see that he somehow rescues her/send her to her salvation, even as he loses his fight for his own soul.

I'll duplicate your ping of @TresDias, since they may have seen something in those novelizations they purchased.

That's a grand ol' "nope," unfortunately. Amy/Viola doesn't get mentioned at all.

About that ending cutscene, I see what you're getting at, that the Soul Embrace got sucked into the Astral Chaos when they were sealed away, but I still don't think that holds any permanence. Remember that Edge Master (and Cassandra [and Night Terror]) resides within the Astral Chaos at this point in time, too, and Edge Master, at least, has the ability to use the Astral Chaos to manipulate time, and who knows what else, so something might happen there. The other possibility, of course, is that Cassandra breaks free to return to the real world, and brings back one or both of the swords by accident, as they would slip out when she does. There's definitely ways that there would be more conflict with the swords.

I certainly agree that there's almost always room to invent an excuse to continue something if one is desired, but I would also argue that the end of SCV was intended to impart a sense of genuine finality.

Obviously that doesn't need to have any bearing on what they do beyond SCVI, though.

I acknowledge that Edge Master and Night Terror are transcendent beings, as is Algol, who draws his power from the Astral Chaos, and Cassandra is a mere mortal, but... Patroklos was clearly able to exist in the Astral Chaos, he was just sent back in time by Edge Master to undo his mistake. If it was implemented in the game, by that same reasoning, Edge Master could send Cassandra back, I suppose, but in that he didn't, there may have been some underlying reason why he couldn't, but it's hard to say, considering what context we didn't get.

This is where "Soulcalibur: Unbreakable Soul" (formerly) came into play (Cassandra and Edge Master were apparently the main characters), but it obviously isn't in service any longer and unlikely to be canon.

So there's nothing that inherently says that Cassandra couldn't just live in Astral Chaos for 17 years.

This is what I would assume took place. It is a magical realm, after all.

 

[Rusted Blade]

I must be a greedy bastard, 'cause I want both. =P

It's not that your point lacks any validity (it almost feels like we story & lore aficionados have been spoiled this go round) or that it isn't well taken (I recognize that we in the fandom have different tastes and priorities, as different things about the series drew many of us in or appeal to us now), but as someone who was drawn in by the setting, the character designs, and both aspects of the premise ("A fighting game with weapons and a zombie pirate with an evil sword???") I'm of the opinion that this attention to lore, storytelling and characterization has helped and can only help make SC a better product.

It's only because of how grossly overlooked story and characterization has historically been for SC that it seems like we're being spoiled now. I feel that these components were unwisely neglected in the past, especially with SCIV, and that an attempt at doing it right was SCV's saving grace -- or could have been had development not been rushed. So, that sentiment in hand, I don't really feel like it's time as a diehard fan from as fsr back as the "Soul Edge" arcade days to say "Okay, I guess we got enough story and can let you guys get back to doing that other thing -- the one that actually matters."

Quite to the contrary, my reaction is closer to "About time y'all, damn! Now stick to it!"

So I want consistency in this regard (i.e. keep the Soul Chronicles coming), and I don't want them resting on their laurels now.

That being said, given how much they have done up to now, if this truly has to be an either/or proposition, I'd be happy with them focusing their energy and other resources on characters and movesets, knowing they can give other characters yet to get on the roster their time to shine in the next game. I'm greedy, not selfish. =P

I'm honestly not convinced it is an either/or proposition, though. It sounds like they decided some time ago on which (classic) characters would be rounding out the roster, and I strongly suspect that this is as big as the roster was ever going to get for this installment, regardless of how well players took to the DLC.

In other words, I don't think SCIV and SCV characters were ever a serious consideration for this game, nor are they now.

I think the plan was always to focus on the characters at the core of SCI, II and III's plot and gameplay variety, then bring in the rest of the characters contemporary to that era of the series as time and initial DLC sales allowed. Obviously they weren't going to rule it out if initial DLC sales were very strong and a chant rose up of "Give us Hilde or burn in Hell!" -- but I simply don't think they were ever thinking about prioritizing her over characters from the first decade of the series.

And I really don't think they were ever considering bringing Algol in this early.

We're simply fortunate that it seems to have worked out that we'll get the whole classic roster before moving ahead. And since -- as you have pointed out -- we probably can't expect SCVII any time soon anyway because of a new installment of "Tekken" taking priority, any work they might do now that makes the SCVII workload lighter down the road couldn't be a bad thing.

See, fans of the different aspects of SC can come together! We shouldn't be divided or crapping on each other. It's "Tekken" fans we should be crapping on, and getting Namco to immediately start work on SCVII. =P

Well put, all around. For what it's worth, soul chronicles or no, I'm willing to continue paying good money for additional characters, even if they do pursue a route which focuses on stories and drives up the cost a little. That's no problem for me-- I'll get my value. My only concern is that I am a hyper fan, not the average consumer, and I do worry that they are doing a mental calculus of how long this model will hold and therefor weighing the number of characters against the depth of content released with them. Let's hope that you are right and their sales projections do not require too much compromise between the interests of the different "factions" of players with regard to which creative and gameplay elements are prioritized.

And you're right, screw those dirty Tekk-heads! Is there a Tekken forum we can raid with trolling? They'll never see us coming--they can only sort of orient themselves in three dimensions. ;D

That's a grand ol' "nope," unfortunately. Amy/Viola doesn't get mentioned at all.

You know something occurred to me the other day after posting that inquiry. What if the fans got it right insofar as Viola being someone of consequence to the previous plot, but it wasn't a connection to Amy? The main thing that argues for Viola being Amy is the superficial details: the roses and the style of her garb. But you know what, there's someone else in the franchise who has sported a rose motif and a gothic vibe. Someone else who has a backstory that involves her being suffused with a quasi-magical energy who wields a semi-autonomous weapon. Someone who has silver-white hair... Someone terrified of the prospect of having a child because of the possible consequences. Food for thought.

I certainly agree that there's almost always room to invent an excuse to continue something if one is desired, but I would also argue that the end of SCV was intended to impart a sense of genuine finality.

Obviously that doesn't need to have any bearing on what they do beyond SCVI, though.

Spoiler: This is more about story than DLC content, so I'll collapse it

Yeah, I have to say, not withstanding my tearing into the story in general above (and my general disregard for many of the questionable gameplay and style choices made in SCV) some of the few moments in the SC story that actually resonated a little bit with me emotionally were in that game. And a big part of that was because they finally started to experiment with a more cinematic and consequential approach to the plot. People start dropping like flies in that one. There's an implication that the stories of some of the old guard have ended in the interim between IV and V, and a lot of the "heroes" met with undeservedly bitter ends (not the least of whom is Sophitia, whose faith in her gods and pious devotion to seeing through everything they asked of her seems to have brought nothing but absolute devastation to her entire family).

It's all built upon the base of a story that has not always taken itself super seriously and maintains the campy aesthetic, but given that foundation, it makes a pretty valiant effort to tell a human story. I really want that ending to stand as a genuine resolution (rather than just one more game that dove-tails into another "Oh, nope here the evil swords are again" story-for-convenience) because it felt at least a little more "earned" than the other story climaxes, and that conclusion being the end of the mayhem and the nightmares (literal and figurative) makes the sacrifices more meaningful. I actually never understood why people griefed on V's plot so much. The exclusion of so much the classic cast was surely a mistake, but the fact that the story focused on the Alexandrias was not an issue for me. Obviously they would have done more had the game not been rushed (that's an evident conclusion in every aspect of the game, unfortunately) but it was still a high-water mark for storytelling in the series, accomplishing a lot more than any of the previous games that tried to spread the plot evenly among the characters but accomplished very little with any of their narratives.

SCVI may be a larger story, but I still have a hard time caring about any of those one-dimensional stories filled with bland, paint-by-numbers banter between the main characters and literal hundreds of shallow, interchangeable NPCs. OMG is it tedious. I just have no patience for stories that don't understand that lore building is an empty exercise if it isn't attached to characters who have depth and travails that you care about. It's like the unending thousands of pages you can find in the books about folk heroes and monsters you find in Skyrim. I just want to take the writers by the shoulder and shake them, saying "Dear god, you navel-gazing nitwits, it all has to BE for something or your just jerking off on a page!" I hope VII tightens its focus a little and considers dropping the fidelity to the previous timeline a little to explore more meaningful plot devices, like V attempted. I suppose its good that they've established a cannon that gives the entire cast basic motivation, but it sill feels so comic-booky in terms of stakes and consequences.

This is what I would assume took place. It is a magical realm, after all.

Cassie certainly deserves better than to die in obscurity. But then, as noted above, that entire family got the shaft. I hope they converted to a religion where the gods don't send them on missions that end with their siblings all dead or banished to the aether, and their children turned into eldritch abominations...or worse, Patroklos. :D

 

[sytus]

Raphael is one of the more unsung heroes of the franchise, always being behind the scenes but also being one of the more important characters, in the long run. Seeing his origins with Amy let us see a tender side of him, before he succumbed to the madness

Raphael is no hero, he's an arrogant upper class shit that has mental utopian ideas before he became corrupted by Soul Edge. Not complaining though, it makes Raphael interesting.

 

[Ukkesh]

I hope they converted to a religion where the gods don't send them on missions that end with their siblings all dead or banished to the aether, and their children turned into eldritch abominations...or worse, Patroklos.

This is the single best line I've heard in a while lol

 

[DanteSC3]

But we're in the post launch now. And realistically, as a matter of basic economics, more story content required for DLC characters means a smaller roster overall. That's really simple arithmetic and a straightforward conclusion for me: no thank you! The reason our beginning roster was the smallest its been since SCI was precisely because they had to accommodate such an extensive story for everyone they did include in the base game. And I just can't agree that the result, however much an improvement on what was present in the past, was a good return on that loss. Roster size, stage selection, CaS assets, they are all at twenty year lows in order for them to have been able to afford the time and resources necessary to placate the casuals and story-focused veterans who demanded a full-scale story as if this was an RPG. Y'all got more than could reasonably have been expected of a game of this genre, given the limited budget a SC game gets. I think it's time to not look your gift horse in the mouth and expect no more in terms of story for this entry, so the devs can focus on giving the hardcore gameplay-fixated players what we want: as many well balanced movesets, new stages, and p'rtty CaS assets as the season passes can deliver at this point. And you better not skip buying them if they don't get soul chronicle narratives; we all played a premium for your melodrama, you can invest in our fighters! ;P

More story content for DLC characters meaning a smaller roster overall doesn't mean anything if the remaining eight DLC characters do, in fact, get story content, which may very well be on the horizon. I honestly kind of want them to skip the first CaS pack (and I love CaS, if you haven't seen my other posts on the subject), and go ahead and get Cassandra out here, so we can know whether or not to continue expecting story content. Stages and CaS assets are pretty low, I'll concede that much, and I do yearn for more and more importantly, better, stages, but we'll get more CaS assets with the DLC, hopefully some worked in to the second season pass too, along with the freebies that they've mentioned possibly happening.

I will echo TresDias's sentiments later in this post, so I'll keep this bit short, but I'm gameplay and story both focused, so "I want it all." describes it, but more on that later. I've not skipped buying anything yet, since I bought the CE for PS4, the game for Steam (twice), and the first season pass (twice). And I'll absolutely buy the second season pass as soon as it's available (maybe twice), with or without story content.

My advice? Apply that same willingness to flex the narrative rules for 2B that you use above to any DLC characters that follow: you presumably have no problem with 2B fighting anybody else in addition to Ivy as just a part of enjoying the actual multiplayer out of context for the story. The same can be done for Rock, Hwang, Li Long and so forth. Think of them as bonus fighters who wouldn't have appeared otherwise, not characters who got short-shrift in the plot.

If the characters were Hilde, Algol, Dampierre, Viola, Z.W.E.I., or the kids, then I'd be more than willing to flex the narrative rules. But characters who do fit this timeline, to not have story, is absolutely a waste and shouldn't happen, and I would be very much disappointed if that were to happen.

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@TresDias I fully agree with what you've said, in that I love SoulCalibur for many reasons, all of the reasons, from all angles. The gameplay is great and has certainly evolved over time, and the characters have grown with it, across the games. I love the story (obviously) and the characters are important to that story, so I would definitely want as many characters to be in the game as possible to flesh out the story as much as possible, but I also enjoy playing as all of the characters, to the point where I "main" Edge Master styles at least half-seriously. SoulCalibur III's technical issues bug me, because it is otherwise hands-down the best game in the series in terms of roster and content, for story, gameplay variance, and basically everything. It even has the most aesthetically appealing character designs and artwork, too, and is second-best in terms of stages.

We know for sure that we're getting eight more characters, unless something tragic happens and stuff gets cut short, heaven forbid, so we already know we're getting more gameplay elements from that, and we've got CaS parts in tow as well, so this isn't really up for debate about whether or not we're getting more from that. To also get more story content from those characters, I don't feel is an unreasonable expectation at all, as I've expressed and wholeheartedly believe. If Cassandra comes out, and doesn't have a Soul Chronicle, I will definitely be sad. I may even cry. But I'll live and keep supporting the series, of that there can be no doubt.

There is definitely something to the we should stand united, as SoulCalibur fans, "against" the true enemy, that is Tekken. Not that I'm saying that you can't like both franchises, as I myself have dabbled in Tekken, both old and new, but it can't really be denied that Tekken does take away from resources that could rather be put into SoulCalibur, so in that way, they are against us, either consciously or unconsciously. But with Okubo, it does feel like we are finally getting some quasi-equal representation and love, especially true if we do get all eight of these characters with fleshed out everything just like the main cast, and keep them moving forward into SoulCalibur VII. It's a bit sad that this seems unrealistic, when it really should be what we get, and I wouldn't even say that's entitlement, either, it's just what we've had in the past and should be able to have once more.

I believe that SoulCalibur V was an ending to the story at large just as SoulCalibur IV was an ending to the story at large, that it could be, but it probably isn't, as long as the game continues to sell. But the main reason I doubt that SoulCalibur V would have ended the main story lies in the story of Z.W.E.I., Viola, and Raphael. You may or may not be aware that there is a secret weapon of Viola's that looks not unlike the Astral Chaos, and I don't believe it to be much of a stretch to say that her crystal ball is powered by the same essence that drives the Astral Chaos, as it was able to warp her mind and destroy her memories of her past. Reversing that energy to give Amy her old life back, which could have happened if the story was finished, may have leaked the essence of the swords back into the world. Maybe not, maybe this is just my tired musings, but that's what I think.

I don't really know anything about Unbreakable Soul, but Cassandra's Astral Chaos stuff was in New Legends of Project Soul, so it's canon to that effect, just not really knowing what else happened from there, I feel like she'd still go, but what she does or if she comes back would be subject to the future.

(This post is getting long, and I know there's more, so I'll cut it for now.)

 

[Rusted Blade]

Raphael is no hero, he's an arrogant upper class shit that has mental utopian ideas before he became corrupted by Soul Edge. Not complaining though, it makes Raphael interesting.

Raph's definetly a bit of a douche. But it kind of makes his genuine love for Amy as a surrogate father all the more endearing. When they do get around to exploring the plot running from SCIII through SCV, I'd like it very much if they show him doing something to protect Amy and clear her out of the way of danger even as he realizes he is becoming irretrievably lost to Soul Edge as its host and puppet. If Viola is indeed Amy, it would stand to reason her amnesia has something to do with the risk of malfestation that she somehow avoided, despite her proximity to Raphael, and indications that she was beginning to succumb to it during SCIV.

Thing is, we don't get much of a sense of Amy's personality in SCII or SCIII and by SCIV, she seems to be a proper sociopath (as does Raphael). Raph is deep into his vampire kick by then, so it stands to reason they are both under the influence of malfestation, but SCVI establishes that, much as is hinted in SCII, neither starts out all that bad--Amy is a little cold and detached, but she has at least a bit of a moral compass. This is pretty consistent with Viola's temperament. So some sort of sacrifice made on Raphael's part to get Amy purified of malfestation (which could involve both her amnesia and that crystal ball) while he himself loses the fight for his own soul, would be an interesting story beat that would redeem him in one sense even as he becomes a complete monster as Nightmare.

Well, pure speculation anyway. I just find there's something interesting about a character who is in most respects conniving and irredeemable, but who is nevertheless devoted to protecting someone.

This is the single best line I've heard in a while lol

;)

I will echo TresDias's sentiments later in this post, so I'll keep this bit short, but I'm gameplay and story both focused, so "I want it all." describes it, but more on that later. I've not skipped buying anything yet, since I bought the CE for PS4, the game for Steam (twice), and the first season pass (twice). And I'll absolutely buy the second season pass as soon as it's available (maybe twice), with or without story content.

Good man! :)

 

[DanteSC3]

@sytus and @Rusted Blade addressed here, more about story stuff, so collapsing:

Spoiler: STORY MONOLITH

Raphael is no hero, he's an arrogant upper class shit that has mental utopian ideas before he became corrupted by Soul Edge. Not complaining though, it makes Raphael interesting.

He's not a saint, no, but he only had the best of intentions. He's a tragic hero, by the purest definition. He came from nobility, but he was made a scapegoat and essentially exiled from his status, and so he had to find new purpose in life. Who knows what would have necessarily happened if he hadn't run into Amy, though? She definitely changed his life, for better or for worse. She wasn't given proper attention, I don't think, which is why people misunderstand their relationship. It's one of the things that SoulCalibur VI handled quite well, showing us that Raphael's intentions with Amy are pure, to use his intelligence and cunning to rebuild his life, and not just for him, but also for Amy.

It's true, he doesn't go about things in a heroic manner, so he would most definitely be classified as "chaotic good", because he's willing to commit crimes to reach his goals, but he's not doing it out of malice, he just wants things to be good for Amy, first and foremost, because he feels like she deserves the world. A bit misguided, perhaps, but it proves his heart's in the right place, if a bit fanatical. He's not a perfect person, but he does what he can with what he knows. It's unfortunate that Soul Edge taints him, but he never loses sight of his goal, pursuing both swords to see if they can assist him, and neither does, so he gives his body to Inferno, albeit unwillingly, though he brokers a deal to use Soul Edge's power for... a goal he's forgotten, unintentionally.

Speculation begins, because we didn't get more story, but we do know that Raphael, as soon as he was freed from Soul Edge's grasp, goes right back to finding Amy to figure out what has happened in the past 17 years that he doesn't fully grasp why he missed out. When he found her again, though she may have been Viola, I have no doubts that he'd do whatever he could to help her reclaim her past, whether she was or wasn't Amy, because he's still sworn to devote his life to hers, no matter the cost. It would've put him at odds with Z.W.E.I., no doubt, even if Z.W.E.I. didn't already hate him enough for putting him to death, for some reason we don't know, that could have possibly been for anything. We may never know, but I hope that we will, eventually.

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@Rusted Blade Coming back to your sentiments, let's see... well, yes, I'd probably describe myself as a "hyper fan" as well, considering my devotion to this series is probably very nearly the same devotion Raphael has for Amy. It's definitely my favorite fighting game franchise of all time, for a multitude of reasons. It broke my heart to see it fall from grace, and keep falling, and SoulCalibur VI is definitely on the right track to rise back up again. It's not quite there, yet, but damn if it's not trying. It can and I believe it will succeed in telling a compelling narrative, as well as delivering the styles that everyone wants, all in the one package, in a way that only SoulCalibur can. SoulCalibur VII could very well be the SoulCalibur III/IV that we never got, where it keeps the quality all over while continuing to have all the characters we know and love, at the same time.

Are you implying that Viola might actually be Ashlotte? Because that doesn't make any sense at all, and is pretty far off the rails. I just can't see it.

I know what you're getting at about fighting nonsense NPCs and inconsequentiality, but the truth of the matter is that we can only do so much, without having anyone die. As far as no one ever dying, well, Maxi has died a couple of times, I'm quite sure. Li Long did too, kind of. Sure, they came back anyway, but they did die, but Maxi may be cursed with not truly dying, or something, and that may be why he didn't age for SoulCalibur V. Maxi even is implied to have died here in SoulCalibur VI, at the hands of Astaroth, as he always does. Imagine being Astaroth, believing you've succeeded, and then he pops up again. Maybe he's got some secret trump card that lets him live, and we'll learn about it at some point, to justify his continuing to revive.

A common complaint I've seen elsewhere about Soul Chronicle is that a lot of the main cast never interacts with one another. And well, I think it's fine that they don't, if they really didn't. The real central conflicts lie with the swords, and everyone else has their own lives and problems to deal with, that are affected by but may not be directly related to the swords. And if real battles to the death did occur, then we wouldn't be able to keep characters. If they ever were going to justify not bringing a character back in the next game, literally killing them would be the best way to do so, I think.

Let's theorize that Maxi really died here, and he's not coming back to SoulCalibur VII. I'm not wishing this, for clarity, but if it does happen. Then Li Long coming back into the frame makes a lot of sense, actually, as he might can fill the niche and provide an alternative journey to shake things up a bit in the story, if we really are going to make this a "new timeline" (which I don't believe in the slightest), then changing things in this way could keep things fresh.

Anyway, I don't find the battles with NPCs to be a problem, from a narrative point of view. I get, from a gameplay point of view, where it's not compelling, but that's where Arcade Mode comes in, as well as competitive multiplayer. I know it's maybe not ideal, but I feel like it's the most economical way to give everyone what they want at the same time, with this new ethos of taking the story seriously and giving everyone a valid part, all canon, no fluff, no extravagant spectacle that didn't happen.

I do feel like tragedy and real consequence should probably happen more often, but if it comes at the expense of characters, I'm not really sure if it's worth it, either. Maybe when we get back to the SoulCalibur V part of the story, we can address this more clearly, but I feel like it's more clear that they're adhering to the original story as closely as possible, making the best of what they have to work with, and enriching it (which I feel like they are doing), creating a history that some like myself have already seen/envisioned/pieced together, but putting it together where you non-story-nuts can also participate in the awareness and indulge if you so please.

Good woman! :)

A minor point, but fixed.