There were some qualifiers in there. :)
Aside from that 11B is i23 and 3A only combos near edge. And 44B isn't exactly what I would call a good move to use up against a quick aggressive player.
Are you happy with Siegfried in SC4?
- Thread starter Stryker
- Start date
There were some qualifiers in there. :)
Aside from that 11B is i23 and 3A only combos near edge. And 44B isn't exactly what I would call a good move to use up against a quick aggressive player.
PyroZamfir
[09] Warrior
44B has another very distinctive purpose, which is defeating obvious lows. 3A is still solid, and slightly safer than 3B. You really need to learn to setup with siegfried to find any uses. And all of those moves should be used after a move to set them up with like agA or B:4 on wake-up (and almost only on wake up). They're all really situational and work well when evading highs or lows and forcing a whiff. But 3B is his only real choice, and though it's unsafe it's quite hard to eliminate it entirely form his game.
kPc
[09] Warrior
You'd be very suprised my friend on how much speed doesnt really matter when you play siegfried. It sounds wierd I know but you can get away with ALOT of things that arent that fast. You just have to use things strategically.
pyro- 3B is great but I dont use it THAT much, only because the people I play punish all the time on block so I resort to other things. I`m sure there are others than 3B that you can resort to as a panic button. (when I say "you", I mean a broad area of people)
pyro- 3B is great but I dont use it THAT much, only because the people I play punish all the time on block so I resort to other things. I`m sure there are others than 3B that you can resort to as a panic button. (when I say "you", I mean a broad area of people)
I'm not complaining about Seig's over all gameplay, I just wish he had one more mid setup from neutral. The relatively quick 3KKB combo would fit perfectly if the initial 3K had a 4 frame stun on CHit, and I don't think it would unbalance him. Not to mention that would make 3K +1 on CHit, rather than -3 on any hit, leading to a few tech traps.
That's just my, "if you could change one thing" tangent.
That's just my, "if you could change one thing" tangent.
PyroZamfir
[09] Warrior
I'm for making 3KKB a viable alternative once more BUT! 66KA is the new 3KKB. It's not shakeable on counterhit, i don't know where people got this idea but i went into training mode and made sure to be hit by it a bunch and it wasn't listed as a recoverable stun. It's a viable on CH and has a NASTY left ring out. Use it! I try and bait tech crouches i can beat after agA with it so it usually ends up as agA, agA, (opponent realizes they can tech crouch) 66KA! to stuff the tech crouching mid :P.
IceColdEdge
Retired Goon
Really?... I wonder how long the stun is... that maaaay be worth looking into since otherwise 66K will have been completely removed from my arsenal (the fact that you can't hit confirm the A and that it's unsafe on block and bad on normal hit made me not like that move at all in this game)...
Because you can't hit confirm it that means you are basically hoping that the shoulder hits on CH if not then here comes the slow ass high(!) follow up which people will duck... then u get smacked...
- I.C.E.
Stryker
[10] Knight
As you said before, I'm really happy with Siegfried in this game. My fellow players want me to change for Kilik, a fuck tier character, but I can't have fun with a character so easy to play and with some many cheap moves to abuse and spam.
I'm happy but not blind, I cannot be quiet while more and more moves are day to day becoming obsoleting, so nobody want to use it. You are maybe (I guess) the best Siegfried player on USA and you were saying that you will give up about using a move. Why Soul Project doesn't let the old good 66kB? 66K was totally safe, knockdown on CH, good for RO or Wallsplash, and a good hit confirm to finish with B or the delayed version.
Everyday there are more and more moves that nobody want to use. So the remaining move set is getting short.
I use this formula to test the moves: if a move is high, on Hit is -5~-4 on block is -18~-17, doesn't knockdown or wallsplash, only is available on stance, its not useful to start a combo, and is so slow that the opponent always duck or block even the first time they see the move, then the move is a crap.
But if the move is mid, horizontal, i17, on hit is 0, on block is -20, and a second hit is easy to confirm on CH for a good damage, knockdown and ring out too, then the move is worth and is good to use.
The first move was RSH A... the second move is WS A~A.
I was playing today against Yefry, using his main Yoshimitsu, and was a totally fierce match, he was using like the 50% of Yoshis command list and I was using only 1B, B:4, 9K, WS AA, WS B, WS K, RSH B, 22_88B, B6, agA, 1K, 3K and many many throws... I don't like to play like this but I have to do this in order to be competitive. I was using sometimes 22_88kA:A2A, and 2B_A+G. May look like many much moves but are really just a 25% of the entire move list.
I'm happy cause its fun to play as Siegfried, but in competitive purposes is really hard to climb this unsafe hill.
-Stryker-
AuLord
[08] Mercenary
As bad as it is, there's no one that Siegfried cannot beat in SC4. It was a lot worse in 3 in my opinion. Just my two cents, but there are people more knowledgeable than me out there.
hotnikkelz
johNNy blaZe
Well Aulord, anyone can beat anyone, but i don't think that's the point eh ;)
66K(CH) is shakable. Just difficult. That's not a good move imo.
Stryker, add 4K, BH A+B, BH B and RSH A+B to your list.
66K(CH) is shakable. Just difficult. That's not a good move imo.
Stryker, add 4K, BH A+B, BH B and RSH A+B to your list.
sdnkorento
[08] Mercenary
Sounds like my childhood! I'm was also used to limited in few moves, but then I realized (by watching Sacharja's vids) that moving was also part of Sieg - especially in SC3 where Sieg was high-tier in stepping. I so agree with you that playing Sieg is pretty hard, since you have to come up with clever tricks all the time! You didn't have any cheap to abuse.
But because there is so small number of moves to use, I love this community. Together is easier to find something new and fancy
Stryker
[10] Knight
I always try to search new ways to use to short possibilities we have. But always in the final chapter of my analysis the result is that we have to be better in stepping, defense, mixups, and overall strategies than the players who use others characters... I have to practice against any character and their command list to use Siegfried. To use other one I just have to learn the "abuse it" moves and some deadly combos and tech traps. Easy as you can see.
The stragies used against me:
1. Block and punish. This is old, from the times of SC3. Yoshi, Sophy, Cass, Taki and many more characters are a real deal using this technique.
2. Wait for the whiff. This is the most ugly tecnique I ever have to face. Assuming that I play using the tip of my sword in order to be less unsafe, they just try to be just a little far, then hitting me with a super duper fast and deadly damager move that have better range than any of my moves; like 44_66 A+B from Yoshi, 66BB from Mitsu, 236236B from Sophi, 44B from Asta and many many more.
3. Stop his steps. This is something that every character user do in this game, cause nobody want to be stepped easily all the times, so they(we) start to use many fast horizontal moves. The problem is that some characters have betters anti-step weapons then others.
4. Don't to anything. The opponent its just playing around, doing some safes hard to GI moves, and the move around again, just waiting for the chance to do GI or duck a throw. Really boring.
Those are the main strategies use against me as Siegfried User (When I use Kilik my opponents just use a bunch of kicks and die).
I'm gonna post later my anti techniques but first lets read your oppinions.
-Stryker-
Jink
[10] Knight
In My Opinion:
SC4 Siegfried is more competitive than other version in the series.
The Goods:
1. kA:2A is a long range low that gives +8~+10 on normal hit, KD on counter followed by a guarantee 33B, and is near safe at tip range. But the fact that it is low and very powerful will promote opponents to crouch guard more often. Giving you the lead on MixUps.
2. kA-MixUps are just too much to handle. It makes him partially broken IMO.
3. 6A and agA are THE side step killers and kings of ROs.
4. SRSH' owns in MixUps against your opponent.
5. 2A and FC'A have increased range. They are match finishers.
6. SCH'A+B rules the stage. Except against Astaroth's 66K, but you can use k[ B ] to catch TCs on counter hit and follow SBH'K,1K combo or SBH'B tech trap.
7. Common combos that leads in tech traps.
8. 22B's long range, with [SSH].
9. 4K still kicks a$$, his best mid IMO.
10. FC-B+G now has purpose.
11. SBH's GI, that can also JI.
12. 44B, 7B, 8_9B, and 8_9K are among the best TJ moves in the game, IMO atleast.
13. SSH'A+B has more forward range.
14. BT-SCH'GI now pulls in parried opponents.
15. 44A gives advantage if guarded.
16. SSH'K has horizontal motion that can catch side steppers on counter hit. Then k[ A ] combos can be applied.
17. 6K stun is better because it leaves your opponents standing and open to at least MiXUps with throws and mid, etc.
18. SBH'[ K ] owns.
19. 2KKKKK down hits are more consistent.
The Bads:
1. Pretty much as unsafe as usual, but hey, it is a fair price to pay in exchange of limitless MixUps with range, etc all the above. Plus it makes him more fun and rewarding in the end.
2. 3K, the one reliable mid is now punishable.
3. bgB was not returned to his move set.
4. BT-SCH'GI from down position can not be performed like in SC3.
5. BT-SCH'GI is not long lasting like SBH's GI.
6. Unpractical BT-SSH' back dash. NAMCO should have done it possible during SSH facing forward.
7. 44BG cancel is too slow.
8. SBH'A+BG cancel is still too slow.
9. JagA does not give more advantage than agA when guarded.
10. 1B:4B Just Frame from SoulBlade was not returned to his command list.
11. Quite to get up from down position.
12. A+B down hits are more inconsistent.
The Ugly:
1. SRSH'A, the #1 useless move in the game. NAMCO really f**ked up this move from SC3.
2. 2A+B whiffs or misses too much. Even on actual polygon colliding, it still misses.
SC4 Siegfried is more competitive than other version in the series.
The Goods:
1. kA:2A is a long range low that gives +8~+10 on normal hit, KD on counter followed by a guarantee 33B, and is near safe at tip range. But the fact that it is low and very powerful will promote opponents to crouch guard more often. Giving you the lead on MixUps.
2. kA-MixUps are just too much to handle. It makes him partially broken IMO.
3. 6A and agA are THE side step killers and kings of ROs.
4. SRSH' owns in MixUps against your opponent.
5. 2A and FC'A have increased range. They are match finishers.
6. SCH'A+B rules the stage. Except against Astaroth's 66K, but you can use k[ B ] to catch TCs on counter hit and follow SBH'K,1K combo or SBH'B tech trap.
7. Common combos that leads in tech traps.
8. 22B's long range, with [SSH].
9. 4K still kicks a$$, his best mid IMO.
10. FC-B+G now has purpose.
11. SBH's GI, that can also JI.
12. 44B, 7B, 8_9B, and 8_9K are among the best TJ moves in the game, IMO atleast.
13. SSH'A+B has more forward range.
14. BT-SCH'GI now pulls in parried opponents.
15. 44A gives advantage if guarded.
16. SSH'K has horizontal motion that can catch side steppers on counter hit. Then k[ A ] combos can be applied.
17. 6K stun is better because it leaves your opponents standing and open to at least MiXUps with throws and mid, etc.
18. SBH'[ K ] owns.
19. 2KKKKK down hits are more consistent.
The Bads:
1. Pretty much as unsafe as usual, but hey, it is a fair price to pay in exchange of limitless MixUps with range, etc all the above. Plus it makes him more fun and rewarding in the end.
2. 3K, the one reliable mid is now punishable.
3. bgB was not returned to his move set.
4. BT-SCH'GI from down position can not be performed like in SC3.
5. BT-SCH'GI is not long lasting like SBH's GI.
6. Unpractical BT-SSH' back dash. NAMCO should have done it possible during SSH facing forward.
7. 44BG cancel is too slow.
8. SBH'A+BG cancel is still too slow.
9. JagA does not give more advantage than agA when guarded.
10. 1B:4B Just Frame from SoulBlade was not returned to his command list.
11. Quite to get up from down position.
12. A+B down hits are more inconsistent.
The Ugly:
1. SRSH'A, the #1 useless move in the game. NAMCO really f**ked up this move from SC3.
2. 2A+B whiffs or misses too much. Even on actual polygon colliding, it still misses.
DrakeAldan
Follow the rules!
Well...
I've found that with 2A+B, you have to be closer than you think to land it. (strangely, the tip of the sword is not part of the hitbox.)
2A+B has proper range if you're hitting a grounded opponent, though.
I think it's still useful in its own way...
I've found that with 2A+B, you have to be closer than you think to land it. (strangely, the tip of the sword is not part of the hitbox.)
2A+B has proper range if you're hitting a grounded opponent, though.
I think it's still useful in its own way...
Jink
[10] Knight
I bet that was made like that by NAMCO on purpose. What you said is true, 2A+B has more range against grounded opponents than against standing ones. Is a ripoff! XD! :(
Oh, and by polygon colliding I meant when objects crosses them self's, but not their collision boxes.
And I forgot to add: I'm very happy with Siegfried in SC4. I still miss SC2 Nightmare's cancel/roulette play style, but SC4's Siegfried is like pump up SC1 Siegfried. And it rocks!
And with SC4's customization options, I can play with my old buddy Soul Blade's Siegfried's 3rd costume! YEAH!!
Oh, and by polygon colliding I meant when objects crosses them self's, but not their collision boxes.
And I forgot to add: I'm very happy with Siegfried in SC4. I still miss SC2 Nightmare's cancel/roulette play style, but SC4's Siegfried is like pump up SC1 Siegfried. And it rocks!
And with SC4's customization options, I can play with my old buddy Soul Blade's Siegfried's 3rd costume! YEAH!!
Stryker
[10] Knight
I'm glad to know that you are happy with Siegfried in this game. I'm really happy too, and we share the same opinions about the goods, the bads and the ugly.
RSH A was my favorite move in SC3, and was a real deception for me find that kind of nerfing in a move that was only use to mind games and some track options. I miss it, and I trying to find an use to this move in SC4, but I can't find it... :(
-Stryker-
endnow
[09] Warrior
Im pretty sure RSH k tracks steppers so RSH A is still redundant... I mean if it was a mid I could forgive it, If it was the best gauge crushing option for RSH i might use it but until then its just redundant.
Im happy with Seigfreid in SC4 I find his mixup potential to be high to the point where if an opponent starts finding me predictable I can always change things up and confuse them. He is an unsafe character at times but some of his defensive attaks are exelent. The other day SCH k and SSH k saved my ass a heap of times. I think SSH k is one of my new top 10 moves. I got Eclair with it soo many times on counter hit after he blocked 22B or A+B.
Id go into more detail but from what ive read above some far more SC-intelligent people have already done that for me and more :).
LGInfinite
[09] Warrior
Endnow: SRSH K and SRSH B can both be stepped to Sieg's right, while SRSH A can be stepped to his left, which is kind of depressing considering it's slow enough that it should track both sides properly. In theory, step guarding to Sieg's right beats everything in SRSH, but in practice that's often difficult to do, especially if Sieg can get into SRSH with frame advantage or if they delay the SRSH K.
LAU
[09] Warrior
there's always canceling the stance or stance switch against step G... those kinda make things a bit difficult to simply just step G
step G works when you're only doing a limited amount of options....
-LAU
step G works when you're only doing a limited amount of options....
-LAU