1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Imo Top tier are Astaroth, Amy, Hilde and Cassandra.
First three can win from single KD and have very little to no weakness. Cassandra just has no weaknessess and very high damage, punishment , ro , speed etc. All this characters are very easy to use, though Asta and Hilde take a little time to master, while Cass and Amy only get better the more you learn.
I'm not sure about Setsuka and Voldo, they are definitely very strong, but not as easy and have more flaws that can be exploited by knowledgable opponent.

Mitsurugi is definitely not an upper character in this game. I think he is mid tier and is very inconsistant in his ability to win. And its not that he is steppable (most characters are) but his extremely high risk ratio even when rewards are good. In other words its very difficult to win a tournament with him.
 
Some data for Voldo's Mid

i16
6:6B , B-12 NO TC

i19
A+B , B-7 TC i9~
1K , B-10 TC i13~
1[K]~BT , B-8 TC i13~

i21
3B , B-17 TC i14~

from the numbers you can see how good his Mids do , compare to Sieg, Mitsu ,X, Cervy ....other‘s 3Bs .
And actually Voldo's A+B does more DMG and safer then 1[K] which Tiamat didn't mention,but in other hand 1[K] can lead you into BT ,that is a quite tricky one.
Example:
let opponent block your 1[K] in tip range, then BT 1A. it can aviod ton's of attacks(including sop's 236B) eventhough voldo is -8 negative. also here's come to another setup 1[K]>BT grab ,evade vertical moves.those BT throws are gold.

6:6B just like cass 's 236B .does around 70 dmg ,6:6B>66B>6:6B>XXXXXX can be execute in crouch either,even safer. but i16 6:6B is not easy to be done, you should really work on it.

Anyway, it doesn't bother place voldo into S or A , he just better then most of chars,that's all.
 
Ceirnian said:
uhh if you duck setsuka up close due to movement, it could be a b+k string coming at you for a shit ton of damage. The value of 1aaa is pretty high up there.
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Yeah I realize that. What I was saying is I think it may be seeable so there is no reason to duck. I'm not sure yet.

Tiamat said:
your standard voldo is safer than your standard amy. basically all his mids (that matter) are safe. 1[K] is safe and good damage for example. his BS 1A is pretty safe against most characters due to block pushback and the recovery frames not being horrible

standard amy is going to be doing 1A a fair amount of the time, which is -20 on block. 2B+K will also be used, and while not unsafe as her 1A, but still more unsafe than Voldo BS 1A (unless they are fighting cass or something). amy 3BA and voldo 3BB can both be punished but they can do single hit and be basically safe. voldo's is mid, mid and does great SG damage, and if he baits your GI he can hurt you badly. amy on the other hand, 3BA goes to a low so that can be jumped. course they could just use 33B in amy's case, and 1[K] in voldo's case more often since those are both totally safe *shrug*

voldo's grabs all do above 50 damage or more iirc (except the jumping ones), 6:6B is a strong damage block/whiff punisher, 1[K] is strong damage and safe vs crouchers, as is BS 3B (-11 with pushback gonna be punished by amy only, if that). CH BS 3B can potentially do over 100 damage. BS 1A > 2K is quite strong damage. 2A+B mid gives him mixups on guard

tierwise I can't pick to put amy over voldo or vice versa, I just stick them both in A tier
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Actually you got a point. Amy's 1A is -21 though maybe more as WSB at i121 punishes it. Though blocking that move often is extremely difficult since its so fast. Same can be said with Voldo which is why i'm happy I play Kilik so I can stay out lol.

I find myself reacting to Amy's 3BA with Kilik's 1K since 3B by itself is -15 or -16 teching both the low and punsihing the B or gamble with Asura tech jump.

Voldo's 3BB I would agree probably has the greater risk to GI the second hit. Though it can be stepped while Amy's 3B can't.

I would also agree that Voldo has the better throw game and damage game easily.

Though there is something extremely threatning about Amy's overall aggressive speed and quick poking lows.
She is straight to the point and does it very well.

It's hard to say who is better between the two. I guess in this case it falls into player differences here. Or we could go based on player matchups to decide the difference.

Me personally I can't stand fighting Amy with anyone because she can do whatever the fuck she wants. She's that damn fast.

Voldo on the other hand not so much but gets better damage.

I would even argue that Amy can connect 2 times as fast as Voldo on anything. In other words I see her getting damage through low pokes much faster accumulating damage faster. Or launching me with 33B for that matter. To top that off her oki game is retarded. Voldo's is better than average too but involves tricky activities.

I would agree that the Amy player should just go for 33B and voldo for 1K/1[K] mixup.
 
Seriously... GI Hilde charges on reaction... counter Setsuka 1AAA on reaction... come on now... This is starting to sound like the scrub days of SC2 with people saying they can break correctly on throws on reaction. Possible is irrelevant. Probable is what matters.
 
edit: oops misread.......lol. might as well say something else then

asta and cass should not be in A tier. they are both overly reliant on grabs because they have lame lows (apprentice says hi). asta not gonna CF anyone either. cass is too linear to be A tier, virtually every attack she has is steppable and/or unsafe outside of grab range
 
About Voldo:

Both his oki and evasion is SO good. You can't just look at framedata and damage alone.

Example: 1[K] is i19, -8 block, evades well and does solid ~50 damage.
After this combo though, he is both in BT and close to the opponent, and he will most likely add a good amount of extra damage and/or continue to keep pressure.

From BS, he can bait for another BS 1K when they are rising, mixup with sidestep-throws, BS WR B for, hit them grounded with BS 3B, BS 22B (which will go into Normal Stance and can go with 2A+B), BS 2B+K MCK (against they who stay down), BS 44K and alot more.

What's especially good with Voldo is his okioptions from both long- and shortrange. 2A+B~CR, for example hits far away, grounded, does good damage and gives instant mixup again for potential KD (if blocked). He can even just do 2A+B CR, G (SCC is to visible IMO), and continue from normal stance (ofcourse, somewhat sparingly) because there's noone who won't block after 2A+B.
 
Tiamat said:
edit: oops misread.......lol. might as well say something else then

asta and cass should not be in A tier. they are both overly reliant on grabs because they have lame lows (apprentice says hi). asta not gonna CF anyone either. cass is too linear to be A tier, virtually every attack she has is steppable and/or unsafe outside of grab range
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Asta and Cass should be A tier...cause that's how it is son. Asta don't need no lows and his SG is just above average. And Cass is anything but linear, she got lows BTW.

I am saying it now, that list I posted up there will be further reinforced as the game progresses. Cass has the tourney wins on her belt already. And Asta, is waiting for good Asta players to rep him again like in SC3.
 
Asta is like a B+ tier as is yoshi (a lot harder to use yoshi well though, so that should mean something as well). Cass is that high in part because ppl play her a LOT (not as much on actually how "good" she is...the more ppl use someoen the better they are gonna look). And if people really hate hilde just wait for the person to pick her and then pick a counter character to her like rock/asty if you don't want to play her with your main.

But I do agree that Asty doesn't need the lows because his throws/throw range is so strong. There are plenty of times people will start ducking against him to avoid the grapple 50/50 (and then he always has his variety of low throws or tech-traps and if they start ducking). the lack of any realy low though does help to make a difference between A and B+ though.
 
People talk too much about linear stuff when its the prob almost every char has if he doesnt he has other fatal flaws.
33K probably the best cass low.
 
I'm kinda going with Tiamat on this, though. Asty and Cassie are kinda lacking in the low department (Sophie definitely is, too). It's not a good sign when throws are your best "lows".
 
Belial said:
People talk too much about linear stuff when its the prob almost every char has if he doesnt he has other fatal flaws.
33K probably the best cass low.
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33K is -8 (I believe) on hit. It leads to a pretty easy to see "mixup" between a mid and a high. As for her being steppable, she doesn't have many horizontals that have decent range.
 
tidal: 33K tracks, hits grounded applies good pressure on opp. it may look weak on paper but it leads to strong set ups.

dullyanna: throw mid mix isnt going to win you a tournament. you need other tools, ability to punish mistakes and to apply pressure to your opp. cass can pressure very well and can punish extremely well with a high damage output. lots of blockstun, good evades. Her throw game is good btw unlike many characters. Most people only try to see weaknessess missing the whole picture. While Cass weak points are insignificant - she has more than enough to compensate for it. Dont look for weaknesses look for strengths, only exploiting your characters strong points you can become a great player.
 
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