1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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ShenRii said:
The only reason Yuan did not use those combos is because... *drum roll*
It wasn't discovered then.

And I'm not basing her strength just on those combos, so don't accuse me of insulting. Hilde is strong because she's got tools to play at any range. It's just that she's not easy to use because of the button holding thingie.

Your friend who uses Raphael never had stuff like FC 3B, 22_88B (current 33_99B) whiff in between the legs? Lucky him.
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It gave me that impression, sorry. The problem is that at long range, the lance is too previsible. The zero tracking makes her long range a bit lacking. At short range, we got nice tools, especially the kicks and 6A+K, but once we are outside short range, sidestepping is very easy for the rivals.

I showed my friend that Hilde "whiffing" thingy and we tested some random moves by different characters to see if any other "similar" move had the same properties. Didn't happen. I will try with those.

C2_3 A is nice for pressure, but it only GIs horizontals.
 
ShenYu said:
Um. Everything she does at range is completely safe from that due to pushout or just shear range. Which makes me think you're playing her wrong.
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Not to toot my own horn, but I've been playing Mina right for quite a few years now. I'm not saying this because I don't win with her or aren't familiar with her.

Range means virtually nothing to Angel Step. Sisters are a horrible matchup for Mina. All the range playing means nothing when they can punish most of the "safe" range-making moves or simply re-close the distance by crouch-dashing right back into range and FAR out-pressuring you with vastly better close and mid-range tools. Add to the fact that most of her lows are blockable on reaction, have crap damage/properties when the opp just so happens to inch within tiprange, and aren't all that safe makes Mina quite lacking in general, IMO.

Nori said:
Sophie (not as good as everybody says. Sorry, she's not)
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How so? There's little (if anything) that she doesn't have.
 
wow Im not going to read thjis whole thread... I read the first page and that is the extent of my attention right now... here is my 2 cents

Amy - I think she is probably high mid and people arent used to dealing with her so they have no preconcieved counter tactics. Give it a couple months and people wont be soo scared and make bad judgements mid match that lead to stupid consequences

Yoshi - He might be top... hes aggressive has mixups into mixups and good damage and SG pressure.

Raph - stop crying about a move thats disadvantage on hit... eat B,B in the face on CH and then just HIT THE FAGGOT! I mean stop crying and deal with it. yeah its safe from range but if your opponent cant do anything with a 20+ frame window to attack or worse depending on how you want to followup then you need to find better players. That move isnt strong enough by itself to make him top tier so if you want to label him as such give more reasons then "I lose to B,B spam" because if you do you dont belong posting in this thread

Sophie - I dont like her but Ill get over it eventually... Im biased so Im not going there

Cass - I dont get why she would be true top tier... easy combos everywhere when you can do 4B,B:A so she has good damage but I dont see anyone defending intelligently against her just yet so I think its too early to say she is top tier

Who IS top tier? fucked if I know. Lets see what people think next year
 
Sacharja said:
Actually, C3A GIs verticals, too.
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Earlier I tested with several Hilde/Kilik verticals and nothing. Just tested with Raphael's BB and it GI them.

I don't seem to GI often against Maxi's verticals neither. Black Dragon can agree with me, because often he hits my blue lightened Hilde (failed GI, visual effect still happens).
 
Syrpiektre said:
Yay tier listing!

Top: Akuma, Justice, Rugal, Cinder, Amakusa, Shang Tsung, Ivan Ooze
Mid: Ryu, Sol, Kyo, Jago, Haohmaru, Liu Kang, Megazord
Bottom: Algol Amy Astaroth Cassandra Cervantes Ivy Kilik Hilde Lizardman Maxi Mitsurugi Nightmare Raphael Rock Seong Mi-na Setsuka Siegfried Sophitia Taki Talim Tira Voldo Xianghua Yoshimitsu Yun-seong Zasalamel

I mean, seriously. Is there any debate?
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Your lack of Terry Bogard is disturbing. .
 
Hm... it could be that it only takes verts from a certain direction. I remember back in SC2 that Mitsurugi's old A6 (I think) would only GI verts cutting downwards. You could try that out, though I doubt that that's it. Hopefully it's not a bug :/
 
i'm not going to propose anything but i'd like the following answered:

How is Amy so good without a solid low?
Is Mitsu still considered Top because he hasn't changed in forever?
Why is Sophie much better than Cass?
Is Raph Top without BB? If so, why?
Why is Cervantes not talked about as much? He still seems great and has all of his BT intact.
Why is new Ivy good? I can't play her at all so if you know of a great match vid, link it up!
Even with *nerfs* X still seems great. Sometimes I see people put Taki above her. Why? Did Taki not lose her primary techniques that made her a beast?
 
Syrpiektre said:
Hm... it could be that it only takes verts from a certain direction. I remember back in SC2 that Mitsurugi's old A6 (I think) would only GI verts cutting downwards. You could try that out, though I doubt that that's it. Hopefully it's not a bug :/
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Well, when I play against any character, I notice I "eat" the verticals when I use C3 A, but I read a post by SkatanMilla saying that C3 A GI'ed verticals too, so I tried at practice with Kilik's (because it's the character I play so often on ranked matches) and Hilde (being own character) and I couldn't GI them. I tried Raphael's BB and I could GI it fine (tried after reading that post above), then tried with 6B,B and I couldn't GI it. Later I will try the opposite, the training dummy with C3 A and me using different characters, although I'm not sure how the training dummy works with charges, never tried it.
 
Cirex said:
Earlier I tested with several Hilde/Kilik verticals and nothing. Just tested with Raphael's BB and it GI them.

I don't seem to GI often against Maxi's verticals neither. Black Dragon can agree with me, because often he hits my blue lightened Hilde (failed GI, visual effect still happens).
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Only when I hit low. Otherwise I'm fucked.
 
matchupreviewan9.jpg


Unlike tiers, match-ups just place a character in a family of opposition he most feels comfortable. So there isn't that big of a difference between levels. I tried to put range char and speed char on different sides, especially in the middle.
 
gumrucker said:
I really don't get that chart... Could explain it a bit more please?

Seriously, what?
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It's a nice chart with pictures and simplicity, what's not to get?
I meant that I was placing long ranged chars on side and short ranged chars on the other. People talking about tiers. I am talking about match-ups. Sure it needs a couple tweaks here and there but I think it's pretty close to the money.

You doubt Ivy std but weight until Linkrkc shows up.
 
Ok, time to bump Tira a bit in your lists. (Except for you, Cha. You've got her in about the right place.)

Strengths:

1A -- Safe (except against Amy), distance low leading to 40~50 damage depending on stance
6K -- Safe (except in Jolly against Amy), fast, mid range, tech jump, forces crouch on block.
wsK -- Safe mid, tech crouch, tech jump, stun on CH in GS stance.
3B -- Fast mid launcher, only -12 on block, leads to 40~50 damage depending on stance
44K -- 11 frame punisher (safe in GS) that leads to over 50 damage in GS and forces crouch.
JS 2A -- Unsafe true low 2A that leads to an easily hit confirmable CH combo.
GS 2A -- Simple, fast, sp. low 2A with great range, speed and leads to good ws game.

Just a taste there and I'll list some more if you want more elaboration.

She's not low tier, she's just different. (Awwwww...)
 
so, regarding tiers and the apprentice. You guys all really think he's low?

I've been playing the char a lot latelly, and I'm inclined to say he should be mid tier. At first he also seemed low to me, but I kept finding tech traps, moves that give him frame adv, REALLY strong combos from good starters, a really good RO game, and the fact that he can break BOTH throws with A+B by using a bit of force...I mean..low seems definitelly too low for the char :P

Granted he does have major problems with tracking and getting in on the opponent, and also really lacks decent lows, but some of his stuff is just way too good for low tier. If anyone wants me to give some examples or elaborate I will gladly.

btw, I have posted this on the apprentice soul arena but the place's really dead -_- haven't had an answer in over one day on a single topic.. and since it has to do with tiers, I think it's alright to discuss it here..if anyone's interested in discussing the char ^^' he seems to be getting too little serious attention for what he deserves, just for the fact that he's a star wars char.
 
Ruko said:
I cant do any of those combos online, and i probably wont ever waste my time to try to do them online.

I agree about the C2/C3 A GI, its not too amazing but its defiantly a good pressure stopper. I wonder why not go for JustGI and a C3B combo instead of C2/C3 A auto GI?
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Unless in extremely close range, it's very tricky to stop C3 A. It pretty much has everything you can ask for in a move; range, tech crouch, GI horizontals and verticals, rings out, wall splats, guaranteed 4A+B follow-up. It's a great move, it's application though, is suspect, and it deals less damage than C2 AA (though, 4A+B follow-up...). Biggest issue is you can't really whip it out. It needs baiting and it functions more of a punisher move. Although you can use it as a spacing tool, but only against a few characters.

If I were to improve Hilde... I'd probably speed up her As and try to improve her high/low mix up game. Particularly coming from her spear, as it's too filled up with mid hitting stabs.

It's not so much that Hilde can't track (she has some tools, 66A and 6A+B, plus C3 A). It's just her spear game is just really weak, and doesn't produce a strong threat. Currently, her charged game can spook and put characters on the defensive. But when that happens, Hilde lacks some good tools that can break down their defense and continue the pressure. Her charge game gives her nice frame advantage, but I think they should've spread that advantage to more of her normals.

Still, I'm working with her, so I'm sure I can find some way to keep a strong pressure game.
 
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