1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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KuroiKaze said:
i'm not going to propose anything but i'd like the following answered:

How is Amy so good without a solid low?
Is Raph Top without BB? If so, why?
Why is Cervantes not talked about as much? He still seems great and has all of his BT intact.
Why is new Ivy good? I can't play her at all so if you know of a great match vid, link it up!
Even with *nerfs* X still seems great. Sometimes I see people put Taki above her.
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Good questions that no one has answered yet.
 
I have way too little experience to claim anything but armchair enthusiast status, but my thoughts so far run sort of this way:

Soph: fast, safe after almost everything (worse online when lag is involved) = my vote for Alpha
Rock: Too little offensive arsenal, too few switchups, not enough damage in some cases = my vote for Omega

Everyone else falls in between. I'd say Sig is much more powerful than NM this time around (NMs 8WR verticals are extremely linear and don't seem to track as well, while Sig's 8WR verts sidestep some attacks and track well). I personally would vote Raph and Amy as approximately equal, and both high in the pecking order. Amy is more focused on setups and combos, Raph more on picking. Taki seems amazingly annoying to fight, but (unless given MASSIVE damage buffs through customization) does so little damage with her moves... it's like Chipp Zanuff, you do this amazing looking combo and it does under 20%. If someone was a real master of her tricks and suppression games I can see her being high rank.

People are talking like Cervantes is der scheisse... I'm not so sure. His lows all seem pretty obvious to see coming now? Also, I was really disappointed that his Gibbering Sweep can't be upgraded to a juggle-capable launcher with the Knock Down skill. Not that I think he's pants or anything, just not "all that." A good fighter, more powerful than NM, less than Sig. (Sig is near-top IMO... so hard to lock down sometimes!)

Again, take all my words with more than one grain of salt, I suck.
 
you ask what tier Raph is without BB? I say: why ask a hypothetical question? cause guess what? he HAS BB.

Raph is probably not top, my current guess is upper mid
 
I never see Yoshimitsu on any of these tier lists. Is he that bad, Because a player who knows what they are doing with him can be really good.
 
Amel_P said:
I never see Yoshimitsu on any of these tier lists. Is he that bad, Because a player who knows what they are doing with him can be really good.
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Right now, everybody is in fantasy land and not studying the game. Instead, they go online, read what one person says, and spends time breaking down that char only. Smart players are realizing Yoshi is sick in the right hands. So is Cervantes w/iTP (gonna be hard to convince me he's not the best w/iTP at his disposal)

EC: I don't think Sophie is top because I think other chars are better. I think the following chars are better overall in this game than Sophie

Amy
Yoshi (for sure)
Cervantes (iTP makes him so dangerous. Sad most people don't see it)
Cass
Lizardman (he can completely control a match and take over if he wants to)

Sophie I think is upper mid. Can she BEAT everybody? Hell yeah she can. I just don't think she's automatically top like everybody always claims she is. Maybe I'm biased because I have access to a great Sophie player and know what she can do/can't?

DreamingSky: Go to Youtube, type in SC4 Cervantes and have fun. His iTP let's him do the one thing nobody can do in this game: escape pressure. Miss a BB? You're eating half life. Duck? You're eating half life (3B, i214B+K is 81 damage). iGDR allows him tech crouch highs, jump over lows and get half life. His lows are not easy to see. I haven't met anybody who can see 1k on reaction. 1A to 33B is guaranteed and it murders step. His throw game is still excellent.
 
i pretty much agree w/ nori on the tiers, with the exception that i might add voldo to the top...i think we've seen but the tip of the iceberg of his arsenal. and yeah, that iTP is disgusting. BT b+k into 3b also...
 
1K is good, but doesn't give the frames it did in past games. 11K is much better.

1A is dirt easy to block on reaction.

I can't iTLP for shit. It's likely because of the PS3 pad, but I maintain a certain level of doubt ATM regarding players' ability to execute it on whim consistently under pressure.

Also, Cervy is highly punishable on many of his best moves -- 1A being one of them. Cervy is really good, but I'm not so sure about top. He's as versatile as ever, that's for sure. Mindgames win with Cervy.


-SynikaL
 
Any of you adding Soul Gauge dmg to your tier listings? I just reviewed Yun Seong again, and shit I don't know but his CF option comes out just about every match he gets into.

Amy? I lol at people putting her on the top. I think my listing is pretty much the closest to how high level play will pan out. After some more work on this list I will have it down pretty accuratelly.

But then again unlike you guys I ain't saying one char is better than another, just the comfortablity of a char arround those surrounding him/her.
 
Kimosabae said:
1K is good, but doesn't give the frames it did in past games. 11K is much better.

1A is dirt easy to block on reaction.

I can't iTLP for shit. It's likely because of the PS3 pad, but I maintain a certain level of doubt ATM regarding players' ability to execute it on whim consistently under pressure.

Also, Cervy is highly punishable on many of his best moves -- 1A being one of them. Cervy is really good, but I'm not so sure about top. He's as versatile as ever, that's for sure. Mindgames win with Cervy.


-SynikaL
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-1A murders step

-No offense, but there are people out there doing iTP easily. Some people just have that technical ability. If you can do it at least once against the CPU, try to pay attention to the recovery time. Pretty much, there is none. He teleports and is ready to rape. I can't do iTP as much as I'd like to, yet there are people doing it on a PS3 pad consistently. Don't ask me how they are doing it so good and on reaction. I couldn't tell you. However, I talk to top players everyday and one of them mains Cervy (this guy was good in SC2 and pretty much ruled SC3) and hits it 95% of the time. People that play him have vouched for him.

-1k to 6K works just fine for me. 11K is easier to see than 1K. Hell even 2k works.


Cervantes isn't based off of safety. If his best shit were safe, we would call him Amy. iGDR is his overall best tool and isn't safe. Of course it shouldn't be and thank god it's not. BB fishing for BBB is safe and just too good on CH. 2A+B isn't safe and not many chars can punish it. However, rocks the guard meter so I'm still spamming it. 3B isn't safe but if you get 81 damage off of it, you wouldn't use it? Cervantes excells for players who have excellent execution, have good defense, and can catch whiffs on reaction.

Lobo: How can I forget Voldo? That guy is too safe

KingAce: How can you not see Amy as top? Her best shit is safe and she rocks the guard meter. What are you seeing that we aren't?
 
-1A kills step, but that wasn't my point. Definitely not saying it shouldn't be used, either.

-1K ~ 6K loses to Taki's B, I think. Not sure. Even if true, it's still a viable string. Regardless, I wasn't saying not to use 1K. I think it's best to use 11K and 1K interchangably as they both look similar. Plus, 11K rings out to Cervy's left side.

I agree that Cervy is a beast, Nori. Just not a statistical one. Looking at the data, it's hard to convincingly argue Cervy being top when other characters can get their damage in a much safer fashion. Cervy's been a versatile character with a moderate risk/reward ratio as long as I can remember. SC4 is no different. Cervy's got great tools all around, but his variety pales in comparison to the safe gateways to pressure open to the likes of Amy and Yoshi. Data is what dictates this. Data is consistent and perpetual (sans patches). When the tournament level metagame begins to refine itself, don't be surprised if Cervy's options start to seem much smaller all of a sudden.


Remember SC2 Cervy?

*edit*

Hell, probably more than half of Cervy's movelist is punishable by Sophie's 236B alone. Once high-level Sophie players evolve and become aware of this persistent fact, don't you think Cervy's going to have problems? That is an epitomical example of why you just can't ignore the numbers.

-SynikaL
 
Kimosabae said:
-1A kills step, but that wasn't my point. Definitely not saying it shouldn't be used, either.

-1K ~ 6K loses to Taki's B, I think. Not sure. Even if true, it's still a viable string. Regardless, I wasn't saying not to use 1K. I think it's best to use 11K and 1K interchangably as they both look similar. Plus, 11K rings out to Cervy's left side.

I agree that Cervy is a beast, Nori. Just not a statistical one. Looking at the data, it's hard to convincingly argue Cervy being top when other characters can get their damage in a much safer fashion. Cervy's been a versatile character with a moderate risk/reward ratio as long as I can remember. SC4 is no different. Cervy's got great tools all around, but his variety pales in comparison to the safe gateways to pressure open to the likes of Amy and Yoshi. Data is what dictates this. Data is consistent and perpetual (sans patches). When the tournament level metagame begins to refine itself, don't be surprised if Cervy's options start to seem much smaller all of a sudden.


Remember SC2 Cervy?

*edit*

Hell, probably more than half of Cervy's movelist is punishable by Sophie's 236B alone. Once high-level Sophie players evolve and become aware of this persistent fact, don't you think Cervy's going to have problems? That is an epitomical example of why you just can't ignore the numbers.

-SynikaL
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SC2 Cervy didn't have iGDR. He didn't have BBB. He certainly didn't have iTP. He had iBT moves, which I abused the hell out of. He also didn't have an excellent throw from crouch. 69 damage throw is quite a lot. The tiers are based on theory fighting. Please name another char who can rape you if you whiff a move at all. Hell, he can be in RANGE, iTP and BT B+K is free. Have you SEEN what he can do w/that?

SC is one of those games where you don't need to go low to win. If somebody is going to stand there, not only will I beat up their guard meter now, I'll throw them. Throws are too damn good in SC. If they duck, they are taking a great chance of eating 81 damage. 3B, i214B+K = 81. That is beyond retarded. What other char can take off 81 damage that easy on normal hit? This game is about aggression, not about who's the most safe. I have a feeling you still don't understand how good iTP is. Trust me, when I didn't understand it, I thought he was upper mid at first.

If you really think he's upper mid at first, that's fine, have your opinion and I'll have mine. I'll leave it at that. All I'm saying is, don't be surprised to see somebody who can nail iTP all the time demolish people because NOBODY in the game can do what he can in the right hands.
 
KingAce said:
Any of you adding Soul Gauge dmg to your tier listings? I just reviewed Yun Seong again, and shit I don't know but his CF option comes out just about every match he gets into.
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Quoted for truth. His CF ability is good too. I would say a bit less compared to Lizardman's or Sophy's, but hella better against the other people.

I analyzed his movesets, it's because he has lots of built-in evades on several moves that make it possible for him to at least, maintain a string even when he gets blocked. For instance, take this match-up: Nightmare vs. Yun Seung. I play as NM and Revin122 plays as Yun Seung.

Yun:
-Does, B (tip-range, blocked), 6A+B (blocked, moves a bit closer), 44B (blocked).

This sequence alone does major damage on Soul Gauge. He has the liberty of tossing out 44B in the end against NM (or the other cast, for that matter) simply because people haven't found out of a reliable way to punish 44B and even then, 44B used at maximum mid-range is hard to punish.

For Yun's 6BB move, he can opt to do 6 and be in CR. CR K solves lows and s. mids to some extent, CR auto-evade solves verticals and inflicts around 50-60ish damage off a relatively easy combo (wait for the auto-evade kick and mash K). Not everyone has a good horizontal mid to kill Yun's CR stance. This, as well as the nerfed backdash and sidestep of the game and the stricter GI timing allow Yun to consistently harass you with blocked strings leading to CFs. Stepping is no good too, since he has good horizontals with good range to catch steppers (4A, 66A, 22AA, 3A). Yes, they are unsafe, but as of now, I think that majority of the characters don't have a really painful answer for these blocked horizontal moves save for the sisters and possibly, Cervantes.

On Cervy:

-Nori, just a liiiiiiiiiittle nitpick. 3B, 214:B+K with full armor on is "only" 79. :D
-To me, Cervy is like...Yoshi in terms of damage, only a bit weaker and with lesser low options. You don't really want to duck against Cervantes, so it makes his throws a bit more potent than the others. I dunno where to place him in tier rankings yet.

I do agree that the sisters (especially Sophy) will have an easy time punishing Cervantes, but what I don't know is how iTP will further affect his game. Whenever I play as Cervy, I find that the usual reason why I lose is because I just can't be satisfied with the damage I dish and end up rushing them up for no reason at all. If you rush people with Cervy, IMO, that's where you're going to have problems because most of his moves are ass on block. But as a passive Cervy who can use iTP at whim, I don't know how well he can fare against the others.

He has good combos and OK throws as well as good punishment abilities. The key here, is punishment. I can't imagine a Cervy playing lockdown or a poking game now that the frames for most moves are shit even on hit. But once he hits a juggle offa you and he ends up in BT, that's when he's scary.
 
Nori:


First off, the "theory fighter" comment is just lame. That's essentially what a tier discussion is, and your responses to me and everyone in this thread all conform to your own criticism. Engaging in "theory fighting" is healthy, anyway. Everyone intelligent involved learns something.

Cervy's had CHBBB forever. >_>

I'm fully aware of the implications of iTLP's potential. It is clear to anyone that can utilize iGDR well, as their conceptual uses are similar, except iTLP is more versatile since it's essentially a dash/stance and not a dedicated attack. That's why it's practiced by people diligently.

Problem is, these 3 aforementioned moves are all predicated on the chance that your opponent is making some type of unforced mistake. All players make these mistakes, of course, but what happens when players start becoming better in the future, with their mode of operations fully aware and respectful of CHBBBs, iGDRs, and iTLPs potential? All of a sudden, Cervy's got fewer careless lows/whiffs to punish with iGDR/iTLP and you're seeing CHBBB less because people know the frame data. They know when not to attempt an attack on Cervy.

Meanwhile, Amy still has 66:B and everything else that allows her to apply pressure and force errors (due to her friendly numbers, which will not change. You said yourself, you thought this game was about aggression. Good frame data is necessary for aggro to be viable), Sophie still has 236B, Yoshi still has 6A and aB+K etc. etc.

If you want to agree to disagree, well, that's not entirely logical, since I've held no absolutes for one to contend with. Only one of us has his mind totally made up about an aspect of a game that has barely been out for 3 weeks. I've never said Cervy couldn't be top tier. I just...doubt it.



-Kimo
 
SkatanMilla said:
I heard of this one character called Hilde. . .
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Enlighten me, please. How? Minus the charged moves, she has shit damage off her normal moves and "combos" (I use this term loosely for her, since she hardly has any good combos unless during charged moves).

I'd love to be proven wrong, though.
 
What does it matter if she has little damage off of her normal moves when she relies on her charge moves to win?

FC C2 B and C3 B both do 100+ damage and both have 1½ screens of carry so they ring out most of the time if there is a ledge in that direction. She can also do the B+K juggle from C3 B to change the direction if the ledge is behind her, only does 75 something damage though but this one is used to get ring outs, not damage. FC C2 B has good range and can be used as whiff punishment, it can also be used to punish highs that you have ducked under. C3 B can whiffpunish anything from anywhere. Did I mention that C3 B is -8 on block thus making it completley safe?

CH FC C3AKB has the same combo as the two afformentioned launchers does, except it carries them over to her backside. Does 100~ damage as well and has the same carry.

When playing Hilde there is no "minus charge moves".
That's like saying about O.Sagat in ST, minus tiger shots, what does he really have?
 
SkatanMilla said:
What does it matter if she has little damage off of her normal moves when she relies on her charge moves to win?

FC C2 B and C3 B both do 100+ damage and both have 1½ screens of carry so they ring out most of the time if there is a ledge in that direction. She can also do the B+K juggle from C3 B to change the direction if the ledge is behind her, only does 75 something damage though but this one is used to get ring outs, not damage. FC C2 B has good range and can be used as whiff punishment, it can also be used to punish highs that you have ducked under. C3 B can whiffpunish anything from anywhere. Did I mention that C3 B is -8 on block thus making it completley safe?

CH FC C3AKB has the same combo as the two afformentioned launchers does, except it carries them over to her backside. Does 100~ damage as well and has the same carry.

When playing Hilde there is no "minus charge moves".
That's like saying about O.Sagat in ST, minus tiger shots, what does he really have?
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What if the whiff happens when you are not charging? Or when you only got level 1 charge? Charges are not standard moves. You can't perform C2 or C3 at will, you got it ready, or you don't. That's why comparing to Sagat doesn't make much sense.
Why do you say O. Sagat? He's called Viktor.
 
SkatanMilla said:
What does it matter if she has little damage off of her normal moves when she relies on her charge moves to win?
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Checked SC.com. You're right. She has 100+ damage off those charged moves.

But the thing is, as whiff punisher? That's even harder than using Cervy's iGDR to consistently punish lows just because of the need to hold buttons for a particular amount of time. So most likely, you'd have to fall back to normal moves on whatever button you're not holding in order to instigate whiff-fishing or poking them to death.

To cut the long story short, if you're playing theory-fighter with Hilde, then yes, she can really punish hard. But taking into context everything else in the game, it's going to be hard. If that wasn't your purpose (ie: take everything else in the game into the whole scenario), then my bad.
 
Cirex: I don't find it hard at all to have C2 and C3 B ready when I need them, the only time I'm not charging is the split second I release the charge, up close I don't need to release B charge to fend people off because I've got 6A+K, 6K, 3K, 7_8K etc. The only time it may be worth releasing charge is when I'm getting thrown, but the question is how many people will be keen to throw when I've got 101dmg/ring out punishment if I read that throw?
The worst possible situation after a ducked throw is that I have to use FC C3 BBA which does 54 dmg and leaves me with a C2 A (High/mid horizontal auto-GI, +3 on block) and C2 B (explained above) as okizeme, but I might also go for a low or a throw or just space away.

FacJoe, C3 B is the easiest whiffpunisher to use in the game imo, no directional inputs needed, just release the button.

edit: Do people even read the forums, I swear I've posted this several times before.
 
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