Cirex
[09] Warrior
What are those good lows you talking about? Good step game? Not predictable?
1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)
- Thread starter RTD
- Start date
- Status
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
So this is what I think about tiers after the patch... argue all you want... levels are in no partucular order unless I note it as debatable and Im not going to elaborate on them all at once so if someone wants to know why fucking ask
High - Hilde (debatable mid), Mitsu, Voldo, Taki, Algol (debatable mid),
Mid - Setsuka, Amy, Cass, Ivy (debatable low), Cervy (high on paper), Sig, Lizardman, Yoshi, X
Low - Talim, Rock, Tira, Zas, Maxi, Sophie, Nightmare, Yoda, Yun, Asta, Raph,
Unknown - Apprentice, Vader, Kilik
High - Hilde (debatable mid), Mitsu, Voldo, Taki, Algol (debatable mid),
Mid - Setsuka, Amy, Cass, Ivy (debatable low), Cervy (high on paper), Sig, Lizardman, Yoshi, X
Low - Talim, Rock, Tira, Zas, Maxi, Sophie, Nightmare, Yoda, Yun, Asta, Raph,
Unknown - Apprentice, Vader, Kilik
LargeBillsONLY
[09] Warrior
Comedy gold.
mikosu
Goderator of pink hearts
Ironically tiers are opinions but personal biases need to stay out of them. Someone posted up a list of questions to ask about characters and that's the right direction. We're not factoring in players here. So being able to somehow block everything is an unnecessary hypothesis. Speed should only be factored in compared to the average human reaction time. Otherwise you're just anticipating. Base it off of clear cut things.
Ex.
1. Punishability on block
2. Possible damage from given moves and their accessibility (speed, input etc.)
3. Mixups, particularly moves that are around the same speed and maybe even look similar
4. Accessibility of punishers and their damage
5. CF game since it makes some characters stronger
To address Yun and Tira specifically:
Yun's good stuff is indeed linear. Check his SA. Most of the CF juggernauts he has are vertical. His frame data is saddening but that's balanced by making his attacks do notable damage. CR auto-evade is powerful with 60 damage a pop. Means you only need four of them to win. BUT you have to risk eating a CH. His lows are risky too. The really good ones are linear (1B, 11B) but unreadble. 11A is slow but how to read due to how it animates. Overall he's a more risk more reward character.
Tira's frame data is much like Yun's. Because pixel and I are the ones doing the data I know how bad she can have it. That's why I hesitate to throw stuff out with her. But that's my problem and will not effect my opinion of her place. You take a risk with playing her. Not just the self-damage. Some of her tricks wear out in time and won't work as well. She's all about conditioning. You absolutely MUST make your opponent do what you want them to do or punish well, at least in JS. In GS you're more free since she's much safer and deathly powerful. But she runs the heightened risk of killing herself. Her damage is ridiculous but she still has to work for it. She's like Yun except that she doesn't have to take as much risk to do damage. Moderate risk/high reward character (especially in GS).
So because of the fact that you need to take much more risk than say the sisters just by using your movelist yet get rewarded nicely when things work out that makes these two mid at absolute best. I play them and those are the bare facts. No bias. How YOU use a character and what moves YOU can read screws up tiers. That's why it shouldn't be factored in. It's the capability of the tools they have.
Ex.
1. Punishability on block
2. Possible damage from given moves and their accessibility (speed, input etc.)
3. Mixups, particularly moves that are around the same speed and maybe even look similar
4. Accessibility of punishers and their damage
5. CF game since it makes some characters stronger
To address Yun and Tira specifically:
Yun's good stuff is indeed linear. Check his SA. Most of the CF juggernauts he has are vertical. His frame data is saddening but that's balanced by making his attacks do notable damage. CR auto-evade is powerful with 60 damage a pop. Means you only need four of them to win. BUT you have to risk eating a CH. His lows are risky too. The really good ones are linear (1B, 11B) but unreadble. 11A is slow but how to read due to how it animates. Overall he's a more risk more reward character.
Tira's frame data is much like Yun's. Because pixel and I are the ones doing the data I know how bad she can have it. That's why I hesitate to throw stuff out with her. But that's my problem and will not effect my opinion of her place. You take a risk with playing her. Not just the self-damage. Some of her tricks wear out in time and won't work as well. She's all about conditioning. You absolutely MUST make your opponent do what you want them to do or punish well, at least in JS. In GS you're more free since she's much safer and deathly powerful. But she runs the heightened risk of killing herself. Her damage is ridiculous but she still has to work for it. She's like Yun except that she doesn't have to take as much risk to do damage. Moderate risk/high reward character (especially in GS).
So because of the fact that you need to take much more risk than say the sisters just by using your movelist yet get rewarded nicely when things work out that makes these two mid at absolute best. I play them and those are the bare facts. No bias. How YOU use a character and what moves YOU can read screws up tiers. That's why it shouldn't be factored in. It's the capability of the tools they have.
BrewtusBibulus
Get your eSports on!
cant sleep so Im gonna explain all that after all... Try to keep in mind the SG system is a bit different
Hilde - best whiff punisher in the game and one of the best turtles in the game
Algol - Best turtle character in the game
Mitsu - risk reward personified... but provided you can guess right consecutively he can just run people over
Taki - I probably should have said debatable mid but this is largely based on seeing 3 different playstyles for her already from different people and I think if you could put it all together she is best rushdown in the game and can still play defensive to change the pace
Voldo - hes fucking stupid... like I could argue but it would take too long to explain... I just deleted like a paragraph and I was just getting started
Setsuka - she has good punish, throw game and serious fast mids... I want to see what someone who really mains up on her can do
Amy - She is safe but when you know how to defend her she will give you alot of advantage to work with... so even if your slow when you know when to attack you can defend and garner enough advantage... SG damage changes effect her alot pre patch I would put her as high
Cass - would be high if she had a good low. She has a hard time beating turtles who avoid giving up CH damage
Ivy - not gonna blow links spot... I think she is mid
Cervy - if he didnt fail hard when you fucked up timing he would be high
Sig - hes got issues
Liz - nothing to make him really standout from the crowd but nothing holding him back too hard
Yoshi - same boat as the lizard
X - good for different reasons then before... time will tell with her
out of time... might post more later if I get bored
Hilde - best whiff punisher in the game and one of the best turtles in the game
Algol - Best turtle character in the game
Mitsu - risk reward personified... but provided you can guess right consecutively he can just run people over
Taki - I probably should have said debatable mid but this is largely based on seeing 3 different playstyles for her already from different people and I think if you could put it all together she is best rushdown in the game and can still play defensive to change the pace
Voldo - hes fucking stupid... like I could argue but it would take too long to explain... I just deleted like a paragraph and I was just getting started
Setsuka - she has good punish, throw game and serious fast mids... I want to see what someone who really mains up on her can do
Amy - She is safe but when you know how to defend her she will give you alot of advantage to work with... so even if your slow when you know when to attack you can defend and garner enough advantage... SG damage changes effect her alot pre patch I would put her as high
Cass - would be high if she had a good low. She has a hard time beating turtles who avoid giving up CH damage
Ivy - not gonna blow links spot... I think she is mid
Cervy - if he didnt fail hard when you fucked up timing he would be high
Sig - hes got issues
Liz - nothing to make him really standout from the crowd but nothing holding him back too hard
Yoshi - same boat as the lizard
X - good for different reasons then before... time will tell with her
out of time... might post more later if I get bored
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Tiers are based off of how many bad match ups that character has.... and well Cassy ! has none :)
RTD
SC4 International Champ
you know, I just want to throw this out there because I realized it when I was playing OOF.
I can't help but to wonder just how much potential Apprentice has....
We all know how effective throws are in SC4. But when it comes to Apprentice, we are talking about a character who can't be thrown. Doesn't that sound like the perfect defense?
I mean, if you can't be thrown, why take the risk of ducking into the most powerful attacks in the game - LAUNCHERS or any mid attack for that matter.
If you can't throw someone and you can't get them to duck into mids, the only thing you can do is a low attack.
That's pretty much ineffective because it takes about approx. 10000 2ks to kill someone.
You could do riskier lows that are slower for more damage, but those lows can be seen and punished.
Doesn't this sound like the perfect defense?
Think about characters who are throw dependent like Astaroth. Would Apprentice be able to shut him down because he can't throw him?
Could Apprentice be the best character in SC4?
Discuss...
I can't help but to wonder just how much potential Apprentice has....
We all know how effective throws are in SC4. But when it comes to Apprentice, we are talking about a character who can't be thrown. Doesn't that sound like the perfect defense?
I mean, if you can't be thrown, why take the risk of ducking into the most powerful attacks in the game - LAUNCHERS or any mid attack for that matter.
If you can't throw someone and you can't get them to duck into mids, the only thing you can do is a low attack.
That's pretty much ineffective because it takes about approx. 10000 2ks to kill someone.
You could do riskier lows that are slower for more damage, but those lows can be seen and punished.
Doesn't this sound like the perfect defense?
Think about characters who are throw dependent like Astaroth. Would Apprentice be able to shut him down because he can't throw him?
Could Apprentice be the best character in SC4?
Discuss...
Fuzion
[09] Warrior
Eh, it does seem fairly annoying that you can't really throw him, but I still think he's beatable especially in the SC4 system. You can still take advantage of whiffs, go for CH launches, fill in with lows where you wouldve thrown, and most importantly: damage the soul gauge. If he's really turtling up and refusing to whiff anything for you or give you counterhit, then I think the key is setting him up with frame advantage and hammering that soul gauge, and taking cheap lows where you can fit them.
I guess I'm saying that you don't really have to win the whole match with your strongest lows/throws. Either he has to open up and give you a chance to get counterhit and frame advantage, or you just setup with lows and damage his soul gauge until he fights back.
I guess I'm saying that you don't really have to win the whole match with your strongest lows/throws. Either he has to open up and give you a chance to get counterhit and frame advantage, or you just setup with lows and damage his soul gauge until he fights back.
Rico
[09] Warrior
I just don't understand how so anyone can dis Cassie for having a hard time against turtles and then put Hilde at top tier.
I'll do one of those little assets write ups for Hilde, the way I sees it:
1. Punishability on block
-Seems pretty average really. Nothing outlandish here, though her longer charges do provide some plus frames on block.
2. Possible damage from given moves and their accessibility (speed, input etc.)
-Quite High, though as was said before, the opponent MUST whiff for the damage to be a factor.
3. Mixups, particularly moves that are around the same speed and maybe even look similar
-Bupkis! Lows suck, throws suck. The only fear she instills is the fear of whiffing a move which makes it a lot less likely to happen so long as you stick to the basics to win.
4. Accessibility of punishers and their damage
-They're accessable and do good damage so long as you're used to charging at all times and, to be honest, this is effected A LOT by whether you can button map with Hilde.
5. CF game since it makes some characters stronger
-Blah.
Again, in order to lose against Hilde I have to whiff. Her big damage stuff won't even hit post-GI if you just hold guard. I see no reason to really ever duck against Hilde and that drops her damage potential IMMENSELY.
All you can do with Hilde is turtle and punish. Seems to me that a good 2A would just destroy pretty much everything she can do without worrying about whiffing. She definitely has great matchups against some characters (*coughcough* RAPH *coughcough*), but so long as you've got a character with a good horizontal mid, I don't see much that she can do.
I'll do one of those little assets write ups for Hilde, the way I sees it:
1. Punishability on block
-Seems pretty average really. Nothing outlandish here, though her longer charges do provide some plus frames on block.
2. Possible damage from given moves and their accessibility (speed, input etc.)
-Quite High, though as was said before, the opponent MUST whiff for the damage to be a factor.
3. Mixups, particularly moves that are around the same speed and maybe even look similar
-Bupkis! Lows suck, throws suck. The only fear she instills is the fear of whiffing a move which makes it a lot less likely to happen so long as you stick to the basics to win.
4. Accessibility of punishers and their damage
-They're accessable and do good damage so long as you're used to charging at all times and, to be honest, this is effected A LOT by whether you can button map with Hilde.
5. CF game since it makes some characters stronger
-Blah.
Again, in order to lose against Hilde I have to whiff. Her big damage stuff won't even hit post-GI if you just hold guard. I see no reason to really ever duck against Hilde and that drops her damage potential IMMENSELY.
All you can do with Hilde is turtle and punish. Seems to me that a good 2A would just destroy pretty much everything she can do without worrying about whiffing. She definitely has great matchups against some characters (*coughcough* RAPH *coughcough*), but so long as you've got a character with a good horizontal mid, I don't see much that she can do.
ChaCha
[10] Knight
Interesting points Rob. But I think you are overblowing his actual ability, and exploring the possibility of a character being played perfectly by a player with great defense, and wouldn't that really make almost ANY character just as good?
While he can break any throw, and the possibility is high for him to do so, he isn't unthrowable (if you catch him during an attack animation with a command throw, the player may be hard pressed to hit A+B in time).
He can still be caught by good unblockables and heavy mids that give adv. on guard if he is overly defensive. Again, if he can block good lows on reaction, ANY character benefits from this. Infact, MORE characters have better damage potential off a good block, than he does.
His range isn't great (though his 1B is amazing and deceptive). His damage is "ok" and he also has no real threats in terms of forcing people to duck. Though his 2KB was made better in the patch, it's nowhere NEAR as good as Mitsu's and the second hit is high and punishable.
He has no command throws, his throw range is subpar (imo) and his 2A is god awful. Let's not forget the restrictions of the force meter, allbeit MINOR, it still restricts his flow on the offensive.
Aside from a few gimmicky set ups and a decent BB, what makes you think he is a great character Rob?
Remove player skill from the equasion, because if the player is good enough to know that he can break any throw, and block most good lows and avoid good unblockables, then what character WOULDN'T they be able to win with?
cha cha
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Simple answer.... Hes been playing OOFMATIC too much online lol
ChaCha
[10] Knight
I play Oof and never once had felt that he(apprentice) was overpowered. Oof is just good at playing online, he has turned it into a science, I'm sure he could do what he does with Apprentice with just about any character. Oof is the only person to beat me consistantly online.
But we all still understand online is online, and offline tourney results will do all the talking for us.
cha cha
But we all still understand online is online, and offline tourney results will do all the talking for us.
cha cha
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Well i know thats who hes talking about?? I play oof all the time and i watched RTD play Mick lastnight.... OOF is the only one that plays the apprentice pretty for real... he does the throw break everytime.... hence the reason RTD is talking about how he can break any throw.... I'm sure you've seen oof use it too which is probably what RTD is talking about...
And i'm sure he can beat you consistantly .... cause yes the man does have it down to a science.... Still he can do what he does with any character... but the ones he plays he plays them all well... I have no complaints.... just that I cant GI as much as I would like to , to stop some of the crap he does but other than that hes a Great player...
Angrel-San
[10] Knight
Well, on 1.03:
Top Tier-Kilik, Setsuka, Voldo, Yoshimitsu, Mina, Algol
Upper Mid-Cassandra, Hilde, Astaroth, Ivy
Mid-Siegfried, Cervantes, Taki, Amy, Yunsung, Xianghua
Low Mid-Rock, Starkiller, Nightmare, Tira, Raphael, Mitsurugi, Sophitia, Talim
Low Tier-Maxi, Zasalamel, Lizardman
Good thing is they are all tourney worthy. IMO, this game needs like 1, maybe 2 more balance patches and it would be perfect.
Top Tier-Kilik, Setsuka, Voldo, Yoshimitsu, Mina, Algol
Upper Mid-Cassandra, Hilde, Astaroth, Ivy
Mid-Siegfried, Cervantes, Taki, Amy, Yunsung, Xianghua
Low Mid-Rock, Starkiller, Nightmare, Tira, Raphael, Mitsurugi, Sophitia, Talim
Low Tier-Maxi, Zasalamel, Lizardman
Good thing is they are all tourney worthy. IMO, this game needs like 1, maybe 2 more balance patches and it would be perfect.
Jaytech
[09] Warrior
^does the majority agree on this list??
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
LoL i dont agree with any list with MINA in the top tier....
also Cassy isnt even in top ?? somethings definetly not right....
DiBiddilyBop
[09] Warrior
Yeah... I don't really agree with much of any of it. I think the list pretty much represents what he wishes were true rather than what is actually true.
As much as I love Setsuka, I'd be hard pressed to call her top tier. Voldo, Mina and Algol in top tier... I'd like to see why you think so because I don't see it.
Hilde is upper-mid? I really don't think that's the case. Hilde is a novel character and has her strong points, but I really feel like she has fewer tools than most. I might put her as a straight mid tier because of "the combo," but were it not for that, she'd be lower mid.
Amy is top tier. She has way too many tools to be written off as mid tier. Her only real weakness is her range, and she even has tools to help with that.
Sophitia and Mitsurugi are lower mid? Really??? Between Sophitia's phenomenal punishment and high damage output, I can't understand the reasoning for putting her as lower mid. And Mitsurugi gets a pass as upper mid on the strength of 2KB alone. Fortunately for him, that's not his only tool.
Zasalamel's ringout ability puts him above low tier. I'd give him a pass as mid tier based on just how easy it is to put a quick end to the match with a well-timed 3AB, and Zasalamel's traps can be very effective if used correctly.
Those are just the characters I would say I'm fairly familiar with, so for the rest of the characters, I either can't really comment or I agree with their placement.
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Well Setsuka... is top in the right hands shes deadly as hell, nice range, great damage, safety, good just frames, Nice 8 WR moves and not alot of bad match ups...
Voldo, was top , I still think he is but you have to do alot more work now to get a win with him... Mina i dont see any way she is top... Algol not top but def upper mid...
Cassy is too strong, safe, too many options, not to be top....
and Hilde is debateable.... i've seen some prettty damn good hildes... and a hilde got second in a pretty big tourney out in Cali with alot of Great Players there... Maybe shes just not getting the exposure she needs to find out how good she really is....
Also I hate to say this but I dont think Yoshi is top... Maybe 1st place of the Upper Mid tiers but not Top anymore... Like he said though this game is awesomely balanced I think it will eventually be one of the best soul caliburs ever....
ShadowFox
[09] Warrior
LOL. Kilik is Top-tier?
I'd say upper mid because he has good range, more of his moves are safer and Asura got better in the patch, so I dont...
Wait, maybe he is top now. lol
I'd say upper mid because he has good range, more of his moves are safer and Asura got better in the patch, so I dont...
Wait, maybe he is top now. lol
- Status