1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Tiamat said:
Welcome to the forum Reffy
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Haha. I miss the good old days when that was the first thing people said.

I still stand by my belief that Zas is not that bad. It seems a lot of people are trying to hold characters to a SC2 standard rather than a SC4 standard. Safety is a lot less relevant. Spacing and Soul Damage are now new factors. People focused too much on safety in SC3 and made the same mistake. The smaller stages and anti-step game rewarded a new style of play. Stuns led to a new style of game. Let's not forget that 66 runs have been beefed up with every SC game. SC3 made weight a factor (made Asta stupid run ups to bullrush killer). In SC4, 66 run is RIDICULOUSLY fast. Safety and PUSHOUT are now different. And things that have both rarely track.
 
Reffy said:
However, if you(Impemding_Doom66) could show me what you are talking about, I have more info and could present a tier-list wich is based on more facts. I even have a headset and I assume that you have a PS3.
So if you like, you could show me how very, very, very wrong I am.

This is why I'm trying to find forums about Soul Calibur IV. To improve my gameplay against people who know their characters instead of playing against random people online.
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That is why I said try player matches instead of ranked.
 
It's good to know that this forum is active and that the people here have brains.

I will add KingZeal, MC Slycooper(CrazyYoshimitsu) and Hot_Rod_Dave to PSN. I don't have a xbox. I allready have a PS3, a Wii, a DS and two pc's so the xbox is overkill.

I didn't know that playermatches(non-ranked) would contain better players but it doesn't mean that, when playing ranked, you will only encounter scrubs. I will give the playermatches a try then.

Thank you for welcoming me to the forum by the way :p.

That Hilde combo sure looks painfull. I think I will buy a lance and a short sword to see if you can do that in reallife, I'll start bashing my boss first.

When playing online, the characters who trouble me the most are Cervantes, because of his stun-combo wich I don't know how to block. He uses a low-mid attack(I don't know the name and can't look because I'm at work) wich stuns you, then he uses some other stun-attacks and ends with a grab.

Nightmare/Zalasamel and somethimes Maxi. I was destroyed by those characters. Mainly because I don't play much against these characters because I play ranked wich makes people cry according to KingZeal :p.

To practice against a certain character, is playing against the cpu on the highest level a option? Or should I play as Nightmare for example, to get a feeling how the character works?
I know that playing against a good Nightmare player is the best but if that's not an option?
 
Reffy said:
To practice against a certain character, is playing against the cpu on the highest level a option? Or should I play as Nightmare for example, to get a feeling how the character works?
I know that playing against a good Nightmare player is the best but if that's not an option?
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Playing against the computer will not help you against a human because the A.I. doesn't fall for mix-ups, follows no real attack patterns, and has a reaction time of 0.00000001. If a certain character is giving you problems, select that character in practice mode and play around with his/her essential moves, (which are listed on the first page of their movelist) and get a feel for the properties of those moves (what's high/mid/low, safe/unsafe, etc). But, like you said, the best way to learn is to play against people who know the character.
 
lol @ this thread. I mean there are a good amount of valid points made, but there are 5 times as many post that make no sense as far as tier listing and have no explanation. Also too many of the ridiculous random post that just say: (Insert Character) should be top!!

Sup Tiamat, you playin NM now that Algol's banned? If you're still consistently goin to C3 I'll eventually run into you again, won't have to deal with your bubble shit this time so it'll be a good match this time around haha.

Also sup to Tidus, gotta respect the fellow Tira players.
-Q
 
KowtowRobinson said:
Well 236k:a but yeah, I think that's what he was talking about.

And Angrel, Kilik for #1? A character with horrible punishment game and lacking dangerous mixups outside of "do asura or don't do asura?"

You COULD make an argument for an extremely defensive, roachy Kilik to be top 5 material, but putting him as #1 is just blatantly ignoring his flaws.
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Yes, Kilik is #1 and it's not even a close contest.

Perfect mixup with 2A which is safe, covers step and RC. And there you have 2 very powerful options with WRB and FC MO throws. You try to advance him or duck a MO throw, WRB will take care of that. You do nothing or try to step, MO throws track. MO throws both RO from ridiculous ranges (MO A throw > Asura is just retarded, LOL! ) and the escape window is small too.

66B and WRB both have pushblock and 66B hits grounded. It is linear but you just pause and realign so it will still hit steppers. And 66B is safe and has the AT so trying to counter it is risky. Very spammable and dangerous tool. His post-GI game is good too with A+B combo which does 80+/4A+B and MO throws.

I'm not even talking Asura as Asura is nice but it isn't the be all end all for Kilik. But Asura is still a factor as you have to control yourself in your offense as you can't just mid at ease. This obviously favors Kilik as he can continue to spam safely with his tools. And Kilik is actually better on offense. I mean, you can't punish him mostly and throwing/lowing is extremely risky against Kilik.

He has more than this too.

I mean, even Uriel who never complains about anything in FG, said clearly that Kilik is broke. I agree.

I still want to work on anti-Kilik strats and maximize what I can with my characters but it's very tough. I like Kilik even if I don't play him and wouldn't like to see him banned.
 
Have there been many tournaments in the 3ish months this game has been out? Usually tierlists are based on metagame and tournament results. Smashboards is discussing banning Metaknight -now- (the game has been out about...9 months?) This is only after many tournament results in which people have found many ways to make Metaknight nearly unstoppable, and the official tierlist itself was fairly recently posted. I know these are two completely different games, but I think the method for getting a tierlist should be similar...in other words: should we make full arguments yet before the game has been truly foraged for each character's technique? Maybe I haven't read enough, but what are we basing our arguments off of? Online (lawl)? Friendlies? Honestly, I think the "tierlist" will significantly change after we see tournament results.
 
Angrel-San said:
Yes, Kilik is #1 and it's not even a close contest.

Perfect mixup with 2A which is safe, covers step and RC. And there you have 2 very powerful options with WRB and FC MO throws. You try to advance him or duck a MO throw, WRB will take care of that. You do nothing or try to step, MO throws track. MO throws both RO from ridiculous ranges (MO A throw > Asura is just retarded, LOL! ) and the escape window is small too.
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Ok lets not exaggerate lol.....


2A is +0 on hit and Kilik is in a FC while your opponent is left standing. So if you get hit with 2A you're probably better off going on offense. For example Cass's BB will stuff a wsB attempt after 2A. Kilik could do stuff like 2A RCC Asura Dance but of course any move that isnt a A/B mid or a low will stuff that (and to be honest thats just super risky to throw it out like that). 2A is still a very good move but it doesn't lead to these mixups that you're saying.

I agree with a lot of the stuff you're saying though (except for the Kilik being #1/broken stuff LOL)
 
Angrel-San said:
Why I think Kilik should be banned because hes been here forever and I just want to be part of the people who complain about it
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Everything you say here is perfect theory fighter.

Why?

Because Kilik CAN do all those things doesnt mean that a player will predict every situation that will arise and counter perfectly. You can say the same about a number of other characters but it seems that in the current state of things that people are looking for whats really good and wanting to ban that character. Kilik has been the same as he has since SC3 and I believe that he should sit at the exact same place on the tier list(lol more tier listings) that he has since SC3.
 
Reffy said:

To practice against a certain character, is playing against the cpu on the highest level a option? Or should I play as Nightmare for example, to get a feeling how the character works?
I know that playing against a good Nightmare player is the best but if that's not an option?
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Playing the computer a little bit might help but if you really wanna learn how to fight a character properly you have to play against somone who uses them properly. If you can't do that, learn the character yourself and you'll get a better idea of how to fight them. Ask in specific soul arenas for matchup questions.
 
you should put cerv on top tier because he is broken, he is banned from all national tourneys

and I'd say Zas is far from bottom tier
 
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