1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Foxbot said:
Here is my tier list. I think it's superior to Tiamat's because I posted later than he did (jk)

S: Hilde, Algol, Amy
A: Kilik, Voldo, Setsuka, Sophie
B: Cass, Asta, Cervy, Lizardman, Yoshi, Ivy, X
C: Raph, Sieg, Taki, Apprentice, Mitsu
D: NM, Yun, Maxi, Tira
E: Zas, Rock, Talim, Mina
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Tidus.
Just copy and paste this.
This and Tiamat's tier list are pretty concrete.
All that needs to be done is to debate a character or two.
 
Dreamkiller said:
Tidus.
Just copy and paste this.
This and Tiamat's tier list are pretty concrete.
All that needs to be done is to debate a character or two.
Click to expand...

Basically... I'd posit that Amy and Cass should both be in A tier, but other than that I can't argue anyone else. Amy because it seems she's just not on the same level as "Whiff and you die" and "wtfjuggledamage". Cass I'm less certain of... becasue I don't know if there's a specifically poor matchup that makes her lower than her sister, or on the same level as Cervy, Ivy and Asta...
 
Tidus should put multiple tier lists in the first post, for great justice

Cass problem is that she can't deal with step G outside AA/2A/throw range (meaning you mixup backstep G and step G on defense against her and voila), and they are all weak damage other than grab, which has a chance of being broken. The other problem is that she doesn't have any range on her mixup game. FC 1B is nice but it's linear like the other 95% of her movelist is, 1A can be blocked on reaction without terrible difficulty even if you're stepping. She is also prettymuch a bum as far okizeme is concerned, with nearly everything being side rollable (just dont roll to the 4BB:A side). If you use mostly safe moves with good recovery and exploit these weaknesses, suddenly she doesn't look special anymore. Also, she is fast but not super fast interrupt wise. Her AA is no faster than a standard K, so she can't interrupt some things that say, Yoshi/Sophie/X can. This mostly matters against some stance frametraps from characters like Raph and Sieg. Her strong grab game and punishing are offset by these weaknesses, keeping her from being overpowered.
 
Cervy should be at least in the A discussion. Not quite sure why he isn't...

I personally don't agree w/the majority of the lists here. Overall, SC4 is the most balanced out of all the SC games. W/that said, Ivy is top tier. She has everything she needs to win. Excellent throws (small break window)

Also, how many good Cervantes players are out there? I can answer that: Not many. Overall, I don't think people have traveled enough to make statements. I've been to quite a few tournaments already, Cervantes/Ivy are EXTREMELY good in the right hands. Cervantes WS A leads to one of the most retarded mixups in the game, which I'll bet my house that most of you aren't aware of.
 
vane505 said:
How is WS A "one of the most retarded mixups"? It's like -20 or something on block.
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Well, it can't be a mixup if it's blocked obviously:)

On hit, you get absolutely ridiculous shit. You get excellent mixups. If people want to know the mixup, I'll gladly share it w/them, no problem via PM. Again, there aren't that many great Cervantes/Ivy players so naturally, those chars won't get the respect they are owed. Evo will change that
 
Nori said:
Well, it can't be a mixup if it's blocked obviously:)

On hit, you get absolutely ridiculous shit. You get excellent mixups. If people want to know the mixup, I'll gladly share it w/them, no problem via PM. Again, there aren't that many great Cervantes/Ivy players so naturally, those chars won't get the respect they are owed. Evo will change that
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I'm guessing a very specific Hilde player will win at both Nationals and Evo.
 
Nori said:
Well, it can't be a mixup if it's blocked obviously:)

On hit, you get absolutely ridiculous shit. You get excellent mixups. If people want to know the mixup, I'll gladly share it w/them, no problem via PM. Again, there aren't that many great Cervantes/Ivy players so naturally, those chars won't get the respect they are owed. Evo will change that
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Good Hildes and Algols will probably dominate Evo. Unless you think you and Brian are taking evo or something.
 
i personally think raph should be mid tier but i know that will never happen no enough people play him

i think hes low mid because no one competes as raph

and no algol and hilde wont dominate EVO

yoda will lol
 
Alex.J said:
Unless you think you and Brian are taking evo or something.
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Well.....that was kind of the general plan. Algol is allowed at Evo? HAHAHA!

Hilde IMO is overrated and Ivy is underrated. Cervantes is also underrated. And I highly doubt a hilde player is gonna win Nationals. Maybe Regionals but not Nationals and especially not Evo.
 
Nori said:
Well, it can't be a mixup if it's blocked obviously:)

On hit, you get absolutely ridiculous shit. You get excellent mixups. If people want to know the mixup, I'll gladly share it w/them, no problem via PM. Again, there aren't that many great Cervantes/Ivy players so naturally, those chars won't get the respect they are owed. Evo will change that
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My mistake ;) Thought you ment that you can create mixup-opportunities with WS A when close.
But are there many uses for WS A? What's the damage/mixup potential? I mean, if it's blocked it's a free launcher/combo for most characters. Seems really risky.
I do think that Cerv. overall has great potential, but is really hard to use. His best moves are really hard to excecute. But personally, I don't think he is in the top, but then, I'm not a Cervy-expert nor have I ever fought a great Cervy.
 
vane505 said:
My mistake ;) Thought you ment that you can create mixup-opportunities with WS A when close.
But are there many uses for WS A? What's the damage/mixup potential? I mean, if it's blocked it's a free launcher/combo for most characters. Seems really risky.
I do think that Cerv. overall has great potential, but is really hard to use. His best moves are really hard to excecute. But personally, I don't think he is in the top, but then, I'm not a Cervy-expert nor have I ever fought a great Cervy.
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2A+B on CH leads to WS A nastiness. 3B is still one of the best launchers in the game, leading up to gun, iGDR for 60+ damage PLUS wakes

iGDR IMO is the best move in the game, still. TC/TJ/very fast/punishes a LOT of moves in the game
 
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