1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[eltoshan]

Nori, refer to this thread to see why I say cervy has bad step. http://www.8wayrun.com/f6/step-distance-speed-study-t2202/

BTW does iGDR really tech crouch? I did a little testing and it doesn't TC against Setsuka's AA until the active frame, which kinda defeats the point of a TC

Tiamat, you are the one that showed me the light of nightmare's step. A good step is not only good from block set ups, any time you are at small disadvantages a good step is valuable, like after being hit by a 2A.

 

[GATOR]

Cons: She has a mole.

argg... but thats not a con...its a pro. Thats honestly the reason she is top tier. People concentrate on blocking her charge crap and then BAAM...they notice the mole...lift their guard and get battered.

And I'd consider cervy as top 10 for the "average" player, but he can be anywhere from top 3 (if your in the top three you really are all interchangeable as the best) to top 10 depending on the player and how u r playing that day. But part of the problem is that like sets he relies a lot on just frames (I'll count fc A+Bbbbbbbb as a just...I hate that move...it hurts..) and getting these justs tend to get you screwed if you mess them up, unlike someone like hilde who has only one "kinda" just frame that ppl use..and its not hard to hit (who I too think is SLIGHTLY overrated...mainly because people don't worry enough about keeping their back FAR from the nearest edge. You can handle 100 damage combo, but a RO from a galaxy away is the killer). As already said, the difficulty and the safety factor heavily into why people don't rate cervy higher. He's the type of character that is unstable. He can dominate 20 rounds in a row and then lose 15-20 because he stops hitting combos correctly. And most people in most fighting games find reliability as one of the keys to being "high tier." That is why algol is high tier and kilik is too. They have range, good movesets...but they are more reliable than cervy day in and day out. And hilde is all about spacing + doom combo. Cervy is really similar to someone like set or yoshi because, played in a god-like state, they could beat anyone (take out GI, because then you pretty much say anyone is top tier cuz they can impact) because they all have the tools to do so...but they only DO so about 30-70% of the time when used by a good player.

 

[Alex.J]

Keep in mind i didn't say she was trash...if you see where i put her.
C3A is good no doubt about it. Everyone has good moves.
A+B is decent but nothing to write home about. I'm not sure why this impresses u.
BB is decent as well, but again nothing special here either. It's slow, the recovery ain't all that. It's her zoning move. Suits her well.

Best evasion? no. 7K has POOR range and the range at where Hilde plays it's hardly applicable. It's fast though and i like it regardless. Again MANY characters have superior evasive moves.

1B is not bad, but not good. Just too linear little damage. Compare it to say Kilik's 1B and you'll see how this doesn't even compare, where evasion is concerned

Her step is good, but you believe that's enough to make her cheap? come on now. 7K cheap? A+B cheap? her BB?! The only thing that is impressive is her death combo. It's high damage, and high chance of ringout. It's the only way she does serious damage.

A+B is nothing to write home about? I am sorry for thinking a quick mid that gives frames on block a good move. How could I be so foolish to think a fast mid that gives frames on block good. BB, 1b, 7k all setup for the doom combo, so yeah they must be trash moves also. As for the everyone has good moves, you saying everyone has the equivalent of a tech crouching, auto gi, tracking, frames on block, ring out mid? Yeah I am sorry Hotnikkelz, Hilde is overrated you have proven me wrong. I won't post in this thread again, you have defeated me.

 

[BatousaiNori]

Nori, refer to this thread to see why I say cervy has bad step. http://www.8wayrun.com/f6/step-distance-speed-study-t2202/

BTW does iGDR really tech crouch? I did a little testing and it doesn't TC against Setsuka's AA until the active frame, which kinda defeats the point of a TC

Tiamat, you are the one that showed me the light of nightmare's step. A good step is not only good from block set ups, any time you are at small disadvantages a good step is valuable, like after being hit by a 2A.

As far as TC, I know SC3 Cervy's iGDR did it better but in SC4, I still TC under quite a few things. Then again, I rarely throw it out. As far as the step argument, that entire list I don't take seriously. In certain situations where I needed to move, I moved and got my 3B. Cervantes step is good, I wouldn't take that list as bread and butter. Come crunch time, it'll save you cause I know in tournaments it has saved me quite a bunch.

Gator: I rarely use iGDR in tournaments. You're right, it's very hard to be consistent w/him. That's why I've found ways to win w/out it. Cervantes does NOT need iGDR to be consistently strong. That's how good he is:)

 

[GATOR]

Gator: I rarely use iGDR in tournaments. You're right, it's very hard to be consistent w/him. That's why I've found ways to win w/out it. Cervantes does NOT need iGDR to be consistently strong. That's how good he is:)

I agree, he doesn't need iGDR (or his other jsut frames really). But in combos its what gives him the huge OMG damage and the "best" punishment option he has really if performed 100% consistently. That is what puts him up among the ranks of the tippy top of the list. Without that tool he's still boss (still near the top, but just not as high), but he misses that little bit of juice. Talking of juice... its kinda like barry bonds. He was a good played without his (iGDR) roids, but with them he was visably better. Do either cervy or bonds need em'?? no..not really. But do they both want them to make them better? hell yes.

Super quicky example: CH 2A+B (with iGDR being used) gives a 100+ damage combo possibility. CH 2A+B without means either you go for about half that damage or you try some throw/low miss-ups with him. If at all possible the iGDR combo is better, but of course the other option is still good for a easy to use unshakable CH.

 

[WARUI_NE]

my teir list:

no fair: voldo

high: hilde,algol,X,soph,Sigfried,kilik

high mid:cervy,cass,yoshi,setsuka,mitsu,asta,amy

mid:Raphael (im probably biased),nightmare,ivy,vader,star killer

low mid: mina,taki(I still hate her),yun,lizard man,maxi,tira,

joke characters: rock,talim,zas,yoda

 

[BatousaiNori]

my teir list:

no fair: voldo

high: hilde,algol,X,soph,Sigfried,kilik

high mid:cervy,cass,yoshi,setsuka,mitsu,asta,amy

mid:Raphael (im probably biased),nightmare,ivy,vader,star killer

low mid: mina,taki(I still hate her),yun,lizard man,maxi,tira,

joke characters: rock,talim,zas,yoda

Where do I start?

Rock is far from a joke char. I know a rock player that would beat a lot of people posting here. Cervantes is not high mid, he's high. Sophie/Cass are not even in the top 10. Taki is in now way shape or form low mid. I don't think you play a good Taki, and you can't base a char low cause you hate her and you can't be biased w/Raph. For example, I think playing as Yun is fun as hell but I'm not gonna bump him in the tier list any higher.

Gator: Yeah, I see your point. It's a very good tool he really doesn't need, but it puts him over the top cause it's there. Most people won't be stupid enough to try and rush down PIRATE cause of this move

 

[Chickenwing]

Well i'll go ahead and throw in some info. Mind you, i do not the luxury to playing ALL the characters, but i have taken some time with vids, experience, and conversations with a few well known players.

S2: Chickenwing and wing-zero
S: Algol, Hilde, Voldo, Kilik
A: Cervy, Amy, Asta, Taki, Setsuka
B: Sophie, Cass, X, Mitsu, Lizzy, Sieg, NM, Yun
C: Raph, Yun, Maxi, Tira, Vader, Apprentice
D: Zas, Rock, Talim, Mina

I'll explain why:

S2: It's because we have wing in our name...and we like wings.....but mainly it's because of wing in our name. Deal with it :)

S: They have tools to control you. I'm not saying that none of the other characters do not. But these have better tools then the lower classes.

A:
Cervy- Lows are good but unsafe. That's what holds him back IMO. Also the ease of the use isn't easy at all. You REALLY have to know him to play him. He can't punish alot of things like other characters can. But then again he can punish things that other characters can't

Amy: She's not top. Period. You have to work with Amy to win. She can control you. Yes, she has tools to poke out and outspace you. But her Dmg and SG dmg aren't the greatest of great. This is what holds her back.

Asta: Yes, he can give top characters trouble. Espically if you suck at throw-breaking. He lost his expoitable tools from SC3, but that doesn't make him a terrible character. His 6k is unsafe, but only to certain characters. Evenutally, you'll figure out which characters can't punish his 6K

Taki: 9-frame A. i love it. Other than that, that's all she's really got goin for her. Once you figure out her tech traps and setups, the fight IS Mangeable. Problem is, she does have alot of setups that she can put you in.

Setsuka: i belive she's good, but not top. Then again, i could be wrong. I am basing this off of vids that i've seen and articles of her i've read in this forum.

B:

Sisters: Excatly as told. They rely on YOU to fuck up. If you're good at controlling your game, you can control the sisters.

Mitsu and Lizzy: Mix-ups are the Core of thier game. Guess right, and it's a managble fight.

Yun: can eat your SG, but he can also be linear. That's a problem they'll have to work around.

X: not as bad as people seem, again this opinion is based on vids and discussions. No too much real exp with fighting against one.

Sieg: can eat your SG, he's good. But if a few key things (and moves) were safe, he'd be up there with the A class

NM: good. But unsafe. If he can out-range you, he's better than you.

gotta go back to work ladies :)

 

[mrcfkane]

new list 4 me

A: hilde, algol......just b/c their bs

B:amy,asty,cervy,cass,ivy,kilik,liz,mitzu, NM,siggy,sets,taki,voldo,x,yoshi

C: maxi, raph, vader, starkiller, tira, yun

D:rock, talim, zas

FAIL: yoda

pretty balanced game i think not many characters are out of place for me

-rock had some hit box and speed issues that do it for me
-talim would be better if she could cancel more
-zas needs more tools
-yoda blows
-would put vader and starkiller their if there was more force

 

[WARUI_NE]

Where do I start?

Rock is far from a joke char. I know a rock player that would beat a lot of people posting here. Cervantes is not high mid, he's high. Sophie/Cass are not even in the top 10. Taki is in now way shape or form low mid. I don't think you play a good Taki, and you can't base a char low cause you hate her and you can't be biased w/Raph. For example, I think playing as Yun is fun as hell but I'm not gonna bump him in the tier list any higher.

Gator: Yeah, I see your point. It's a very good tool he really doesn't need, but it puts him over the top cause it's there. Most people won't be stupid enough to try and rush down PIRATE cause of this move

i put taki low mid because of her piss poor range and when i say i hate her i mean im not good against her

also your probably right about rock

yun is low mid because of his CF game

 

[BatousaiNori]

i put taki low mid because of her piss poor range and when i say i hate her i mean im not good against her

also your probably right about rock

yun is low mid because of his CF game

Yun has a GREAT CF game. Shit, that's the ONLY good thing about him lol. If Taki had more range, or more of anything, she would be a fucked up char. She's very good and of course, there are ways to beat her, just like every other char.

CW: Tiers aren't based off of ease of use. If you have somebody who can use the char 100% vs another char 100%, that's a rough idea. In the right hands, Cervantes is a nightmare. Hell Amy also actually. And also, we don't have a good Setsuka/Kilik/Hilde player in SA so it's hard to argue against them being top or upper mid. I should have convinced you by now Cervantes is top. Shame on you:)

 

[eltoshan]

@Nori, the problem is that in my testing iGDR does not TC before the active frame, meaning that it recovers crouching and does not TC at all. Are you sure you've tested the TC in SC4 and you actually aren't just interrupting strings? a lot has changed since SC3 you know. Also, step distance and speed is very important when you are trying to reverse the momentum at minor disadvantage. Some characters like nightmare can simply step a lot more stuff compared to characters with mediocre or poor step like Cervantes. Back on topic, yes I do think Cervy is among the top, but in no way better than Setsuka and voldo.

@Angelic_fragment: 2 tier gap between nightmare and siegfried? explain yourself.

 

[Tiamat]

eltoshan: I do think it is nice to have a good step but I still think people overemphasize it's importance. Of course, it might have something to do with me playing nm and maxi a lot, and they have strong step. maybe if i played someone with crappy step (lizard's is a bit lame) I'd notice the difference more. To me it seems like all the step rates (except yoda and algol) will do basically the same thing, and it only really matters when you're trying to step moves with "iffy" tracking like lizard 3A or voldo 4A, stuff that may track both sides or only one side depending on your character. how big a deal it is to be able to step stuff like that consistently is rather debatable

 

[Maxou]

Elthoshan : Actually you said he is top tier : "yes I do think Cervy is amongst the top, but in no way better than Setsuka and Voldo".

Both Setsuka and Voldo are top 5.

Btw actually IMO Cervy and Setsuka have a good step, while sometimes hard to use, the reward you can get are in the highest in the game from a step~G.

Cervy is one of the character with the most potential, IMO he is top tier material.

 

[Nofacekill3r]

Well i'll go ahead and throw in some info. Mind you, i do not the luxury to playing ALL the characters, but i have taken some time with vids, experience, and conversations with a few well known players.

S2: Chickenwing and wing-zero
S: Algol, Hilde, Voldo, Kilik
A: Cervy, Amy, Asta, Taki, Setsuka
B: Sophie, Cass, X, Mitsu, Lizzy, Sieg, NM, Yun
C: Raph, Yun, Maxi, Tira, Vader, Apprentice
D: Zas, Rock, Talim, Mina

I'll explain why:

S2: It's because we have wing in our name...and we like wings.....but mainly it's because of wing in our name. Deal with it :)

S: They have tools to control you. I'm not saying that none of the other characters do not. But these have better tools then the lower classes.

A:
Cervy- Lows are good but unsafe. That's what holds him back IMO. Also the ease of the use isn't easy at all. You REALLY have to know him to play him. He can't punish alot of things like other characters can. But then again he can punish things that other characters can't

Amy: She's not top. Period. You have to work with Amy to win. She can control you. Yes, she has tools to poke out and outspace you. But her Dmg and SG dmg aren't the greatest of great. This is what holds her back.

Asta: Yes, he can give top characters trouble. Espically if you suck at throw-breaking. He lost his expoitable tools from SC3, but that doesn't make him a terrible character. His 6k is unsafe, but only to certain characters. Evenutally, you'll figure out which characters can't punish his 6K

Taki: 9-frame A. i love it. Other than that, that's all she's really got goin for her. Once you figure out her tech traps and setups, the fight IS Mangeable. Problem is, she does have alot of setups that she can put you in.

Setsuka: i belive she's good, but not top. Then again, i could be wrong. I am basing this off of vids that i've seen and articles of her i've read in this forum.

B:

Sisters: Excatly as told. They rely on YOU to fuck up. If you're good at controlling your game, you can control the sisters.

Mitsu and Lizzy: Mix-ups are the Core of thier game. Guess right, and it's a managble fight.

Yun: can eat your SG, but he can also be linear. That's a problem they'll have to work around.

X: not as bad as people seem, again this opinion is based on vids and discussions. No too much real exp with fighting against one.

Sieg: can eat your SG, he's good. But if a few key things (and moves) were safe, he'd be up there with the A class

NM: good. But unsafe. If he can out-range you, he's better than you.

gotta go back to work ladies :)

Invisible tier:

Ivy


She's that good.

 

[crow_winters]

No one's step in this game is "bad" except for Algol/Liz/Asty/Yoda. And Algol can at least compensate for his bad step with his ridiculous backdash. Everyone can step, some just step better then others.

 

[eltoshan]

One thing that is very noticeable for me is I can consistently step Raph's 3B when I am at -4~-5 with Nightmare, but not with Setsuka, Cervy, and Yun. This is a case where I think having a faster step helps immensely.

Maxou, I consider Cervy as top 6 or 7, not top 3 by any means.

 

[Tiamat]

eltoshan: hmm...interesting. I can see how that would be a big deal in that matchup at least, I can only wonder how many matchups there are where it is a big deal

 

[BatousaiNori]

Maxou, I consider Cervy as top 6 or 7, not top 3 by any means.

Have you gone into practice mode to REALLY see what he can do? I'm talking spending more than 30 minutes. Dude is off the hook in the right hands. Do you have any good Cervantes players near you? Cause you have to play one before you can fully make your opinion, IMO of course

 

[eltoshan]

Have you gone into practice mode to REALLY see what he can do? I'm talking spending more than 30 minutes. Dude is off the hook in the right hands. Do you have any good Cervantes players near you? Cause you have to play one before you can fully make your opinion, IMO of course

Even though I started playing cervy only recently, I've spent quite a bit of time with him already, way longer than 30 minutes at least. I can do his bread and butter combos in battle, punish stuff with iGDR, and iTP around like a retard. I've seen technically accomplished players like Chang's fd in videos. At the end of the day, still don't see him being better than everyone except for Hilde and Algo. Setsuka is still better in almost everyway, and Voldo still has all sorts of super TC properties that make mids magically whiff as well as the stupid gauge damage.

I'm also going to change what I posted in the setsuka vs cervy comparison. Their range whiff punishes are even, setsuka's 33B has more range than iGDR by a good margin.