1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Okay I am going to attempt to classify each character in his/her appropriate class.

Classification
POWER HOUSE:

Algol
Astaroth
Siegfried
Nightmare
Cervantes
Rock

Classification
PUNISHERS:

Hilde
Amy
Sophitia
Cassandra
Xianghua
Cervantes

Classification
STANCE DEPENDENT:

Voldo
Yoshimitsu
Ivy
Maxi
Siegfried
Tira
Talim

Classification
VERSATILE:

Kilik
Mitsurugi
Yun Seong
Raphael
Lizard Man
Zasalamel
Seong Mina
 
I agree with you, Kilik is overrated. Glad some people share my point of view.
While he is a very good character there is no way he is top.

Btw, IMO Amy is mid or mid+ at best, she's way too much vulnerable to step. Providing you have decent TC moves she doesn't hurt that much.
 
Just for fun, here is my own tier list. Unlike many other peoples tier lists, I am basing mine ENTIRELY on what I've seen characters do first hand. This means many things

for starters, many characters will not even be on the list. Setsuka is a prime example. I've played her exactly once and the player, whether inexperienced or just ill prepared for Voldo, didn't show me anything that she could do.

secondly, that means this tier list will be completely irrelevant as it will be based just as much on the players who I've seen use the characters as the characters themselves, and not the characters inherent strengths and weaknesses. In other words, I do not believe any of the following to be true on any level

THIS MEANS DO NOT TAKE THIS LIST SERIOUSLY OR TRY TO ARGUE ((Unless your arguments are as senseless as this post))

Z: Algol, Hilde
4: Voldo
Q: Cassandra, Astaroth, Cervantes, X, Ivy
2nd Q: Kilik, Nightmare, Seigfried, Sophitia, Seong Mina
3rd Q: Mitsurugi, Taki, Talim
Batman Symbol: Apprentice, Maxi, Yoda

I disagree with this tier list! I would switch Yoda with Xianghua, Apprentice with Talim, and then switch Yoda again with Mitsurugi.
 
InsaneKhent said:
Awesome Tier: Seong Mi-na
Garbage Tier: Everyone else
I agree, Garbage is indeed a pretty good music band and only Seong Mi-na isn't good enough.

Edit: Ohhhhh, so that's why I couldn't quote your post...
 
I disagree with this tier list! I would switch Yoda with Xianghua, Apprentice with Talim, and then switch Yoda again with Mitsurugi.

Everyone always forgets random select. He's got feelings too. It would be more viable if charade were in this game (which I have always held a little grudge about them not putting him in...he was the only thing that could make playing with someone infinitely worse than me still somewhat fun in SC2). Non-the less Random select deserves a nice C ranking RIIIIIGHT in the middle. And in said tier list I would also have to say that yoda needs to be moved into "little bitch" class.... (although I really feel he is more fun to play when the person you are playing against knows what they are doing with him...more annoying...but more fun)...
 
Tier list arent made through "top players". They are made from tournament results. Real tiers cannot even be made till nationals are over.

3 Things are for sure and you can quote me on this,

hilde,cassandra,yoshimitsu will be placing very well in every tournament.
 
Just stopping in to say that Kilik isnt top.

And top plays should be the only ones making a tier list.

Thats all.

Kilik is somewhere in top 5.

Top players should be the only ones making a tier list.

Tier list arent made through "top players". They are made from tournament results. Real tiers cannot even be made till nationals are over.

3 Things are for sure and you can quote me on this,

hilde,cassandra,yoshimitsu will be placing very well in every tournament.

Most tier lists are made by a number of members of the community but most tier lists in the end becomed defined by top players as they have more credibality through a number of different factors.

One of those factors most notably is let's say you use Hilde which I see as your first but then I see Ceirnian or KDZ or other top Hilde players who use them a whole lot better than you. It simply means they are more in tune with their character and perform better than you at high level consistently then they hold more merit and their cases are more believable.

Tournament results also are not the defining statistic in tier lists but do hold some merit.

Most tier lists are about the theoretical on paper and less about actual results in reality which is the problem.

What they should be about is a combination of both but more along the lines of reality.
 
Kilik is somewhere in top 5.

Top players should be the only ones making a tier list.



Most tier lists are made by a number of members of the community but most tier lists in the end becomed defined by top players as they have more credibality through a number of different factors.

One of those factors most notably is let's say you use Hilde which I see as your first but then I see Ceirnian or KDZ or other top Hilde players who use them a whole lot better than you. It simply means they are more in tune with their character and perform better than you at high level consistently then they hold more merit and their cases are more believable.

Tournament results also are not the defining statistic in tier lists but do hold some merit.

Most tier lists are about the theoretical on paper and less about actual results in reality which is the problem.

What they should be about is a combination of both but more along the lines of reality.

People have difficulty simply because they fail to describe what exactly a tier list is.

Is a tier list a representation of the character with the strongest tools and most effective program to initiate a win?
Is a tier list a representation of the most dominating characters/with human ability in mind?

The reality is most characters if not all, can never be utiilized 100% by a human being...So for that reason we have a significant variable called human error. And with that variable in play we cannot truly assess the strongest character.

However if you wrote a program, that played the game, and utilized each characters options 100% everytime. You might find Cervantes or Yoshimitsu beating out everyone.

Hilde is on the top because a human brain on average cannot process a great enough defense against her. So we say she is the best. For that reason tier lists are baseless opinion driven by human perception.

So then it seems like the best characters, are the ones who can achieve victory for human users with the list amount of effort. The contradiction, is players who can utilize characters that are considered execution heavy and difficult to master, coming to tournaments and dorminating with Rock, Ivy, Yoshie, Cervy, or Mina.

Then we are back to square one.

What I see in some characters is potential, if you give me a character, my goal is to look at the entire movelist and assess how to utilize these tools against another characters tools.

So my conclusion is that the best character in the game is the one with the most amount of options to counter all of his opponents. And with that it isn't even hilde.

Hilde is a cheese character that is completely dependant on the opponents humanity...one mistake and she wins. Outside of that she doesn't have the most options or the best options in the game. But she is considered the top because we are just too human...
 
No, you're wrong KingAce.

Cervantes is the best non-broken character because Hates say so. Also, because Hates says so, Nori does too. Because he's a tool. Anyway, isn't Cervantes being top 3 obvious? As of now, everybody loses to Cervy just like how they do against Hilde/Algol. (Unlike Voldo, however. Cervantes is clearly better than Voldo, too). Again, Cervantes being top 3 is based on a reality tier list, like Hilde and Algol. It's reality. REALITY!!!

Hmm...unless this reality requires time. And that time has not come yet...well, my excuse is that this thread is based on the now, pre-EVO, and not what is to come. Hehehe . . . .
 
Hilde is a cheese character that is completely dependant on the opponents humanity...one mistake and she wins. Outside of that she doesn't have the most options or the best options in the game. But she is considered the top because we are just too human...

actually i can do well against hilde because I am an autobot... a incorporation of machine and mind. BEEP BEEP booooooooooooooooooooooooop. The person I have a problem with is yoda because my processor tells me to grapple at LEAST 20 times a match...but for some reason there is an anomaly that thwarts my grapples 100% of the time. Which leaves me a 0% chance of success with my most powerful moves.

Unlike most I find cervy very easy because, as the superior mutherfuckinboard I am, I can JI cervy's 3k on reaction 99.9% of the time if I'm not in the middle of one of my grapple attempts. His grapples also are useless because I played the numbers..as a machine..and came up with a 100% chance way to foil his grapples...STARKILLER. (speaking of which, I have a hard time against him too because he seems to get out of my grapples a lot as well...hmmm). Any low slower than i20 I jump and punish with a back throw. I also duck all highs attempted slower than i15 and grapple in retaliation. And all good autobots know that iGDR is EASY to block and get a back throw on 100% of the time. I mean that shit is SO readable.

For that matter, I can read all characters movements...except that pesky yoda character. My processor says jumping a move means a grapple is coming...but with this ..YODA...it never comes. Its just JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP. And then when I grapple when he lands...HE JUST GETS TO START ALL OVER AGAIN.

So MY tier list looks like this:

SSS: YODA
B: Starkiller
F: Everyone else foolish enough to play against my impossible AI and JI
 
You Suck Tier - Algol

Top Tier - Ivy, Sophie, Voldo

Really Nice Tier - Yoshi, Setsuka, Amy, Mitsu, Hilde, Kilik, Taki, Cass, Cervy, Asta, Sieg, X,

Mid Tier - Maxi, Nightmare, Rock, Tira, Yunsung, Lizardman, Talim,

Low tier - Zas, Mina
 
Kilik is somewhere in top 5.

Top players should be the only ones making a tier list.



Most tier lists are made by a number of members of the community but most tier lists in the end becomed defined by top players as they have more credibality through a number of different factors.

One of those factors most notably is let's say you use Hilde which I see as your first but then I see Ceirnian or KDZ or other top Hilde players who use them a whole lot better than you. It simply means they are more in tune with their character and perform better than you at high level consistently then they hold more merit and their cases are more believable.

Tournament results also are not the defining statistic in tier lists but do hold some merit.

Most tier lists are about the theoretical on paper and less about actual results in reality which is the problem.

What they should be about is a combination of both but more along the lines of reality.


Real tier list are made through tournament results , any thing else is just some one's opion. I am not saying i am better than either of those two but also i have never played them. Just cause You guys are "on the sc4 scene". doesnt make you the best sc4 players. There are plenty of poeple who dont go on forums who are awsome at sc4. And infact the best sc4 player in the world could be some guy playing sf4 right now :)
 
Real tier list are made through tournament results , any thing else is just some one's opion. I am not saying i am better than either of those two but also i have never played them. Just cause You guys are "on the sc4 scene". doesnt make you the best sc4 players. There are plenty of poeple who dont go on forums who are awsome at sc4. And infact the best sc4 player in the world could be some guy playing sf4 right now :)

True, but also not true as well. The thing is, yeah, there might be some awesome dude in SC4 out there that no one has heard of. But that's just it. Someone can be amazing, but how will you be able to judge that fact if they don't show their faces in tourneys or at least in places where they will get some recognition? A lot of people claim that they are TEH PWNZORS in SC, but when asked to see some proof of their godly actions, they make excuses or refuse to do so. *cough warble cough* So, credibility is lost. Top players are top because they are playing other good players and winning in tourneys so that people can see how good they are. A guy can say they're awesome, but they may be just beating the crap out of people who don't take SC seriously. Tourneys are places where people who have more than just a fleeting interest in a fighter can test their skills against other interested + skilled players and duke it out.
 
Real tier list are made through tournament results , any thing else is just some one's opion. I am not saying i am better than either of those two but also i have never played them. Just cause You guys are "on the sc4 scene". doesnt make you the best sc4 players. There are plenty of poeple who dont go on forums who are awsome at sc4. And infact the best sc4 player in the world could be some guy playing sf4 right now :)

Again:

Most tier lists are made by a number of members of the community but most tier lists in the end becomed defined by top players as they have more credibality through a number of different factors.

Think about those factors...........
 
Real tier list are made through tournament results , any thing else is just some one's opion. I am not saying i am better than either of those two but also i have never played them. Just cause You guys are "on the sc4 scene". doesnt make you the best sc4 players. There are plenty of poeple who dont go on forums who are awsome at sc4. And infact the best sc4 player in the world could be some guy playing sf4 right now :)

false, this is not smash bros. We do not base tier on tournament results because the game is not as wide spread as smash. Games like SC4 need tier lists based on match ups and top player opinion, just like GGXX. If the top players disagree on the tiers then we will just have multiple tier lists.
 
GGXX tiers are based on the japanese lists. They are taken as gospel basically. We don't have the luxury of any Japanese tierlists that are worth a damn because Japanese don't play this game tournament level, since it's not an arcade game.
 
Again:

Most tier lists are made by a number of members of the community but most tier lists in the end becomed defined by top players as they have more credibality through a number of different factors.

Think about those factors...........

The beauty of tier lists right that is none of them have credibility. You got people like Nori talking about tiers when he hasn't even played a good Hilde. Every area has different people at different skill levels. This will dramatically effect the way they look at tiers. I think Nats and Evo will definitely shine some light on tiers but it still might not solidify it.

As for Kingace, unless a character has a combo as good as Hildes doom combo the computer is going to do the same thing as us. The risk/reward ratio of hilde is at such a high point the computer is still going to dominate with her. And you say Hilde doesn't have the best options which is pretty funny. Having the best step isn't a good option? Having an auto Gi that tech crouches and rings out isn't a good option? Having a huge range that can ringout isn't a good option? She can ring people out on sidestep, ducking, autogi'ng, interrupting, punishing, and etc. So what are these options she is lacking?
 
Well, we have Korea/HK/France/DR/etc. Not many of those players have given their opinions here, unfortunately.

Also, GGXX lists aren't always taken as gospel either - see Ogawa's ranking where Millia is above Potemkin and Chipp is just below him. Even Super Turbo has a lot of dispute to this day (e.g. fewer 7-3 or worse matches in Japanese charts than American ones).
 
The beauty of tier lists right that is none of them have credibility. You got people like Nori talking about tiers when he hasn't even played a good Hilde. Every area has different people at different skill levels. This will dramatically effect the way they look at tiers. I think Nats and Evo will definitely shine some light on tiers but it still might not solidify it.

As for Kingace, unless a character has a combo as good as Hildes doom combo the computer is going to do the same thing as us. The risk/reward ratio of hilde is at such a high point the computer is still going to dominate with her. And you say Hilde doesn't have the best options which is pretty funny. Having the best step isn't a good option? Having an auto Gi that tech crouches and rings out isn't a good option? Having a huge range that can ringout isn't a good option? She can ring people out on sidestep, ducking, autogi'ng, interrupting, punishing, and etc. So what are these options she is lacking?

Aside from the aGI her game is completely dependent on human error. And believe it or not it's the doom combo and only the doom combo that makes people place her at the top. Unless you want to make the same argument in a cage fight.
 
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