1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[Saitoh]

Oh I see ... after playing against the two best Amy in the US I think (Dreamkiller and Thugish) ... I really think Astaroth don't fear Amy at all ... but I could see this match up dead even again. But maybe theirs style of Amy is not the way to handle that match up (Pretty simple, very 50/50 oriented) and maybe then Belial is right !

I dunno really, I'd say 5-5, maybe a slight edge for Astaroth, because his damage are really much higher than her.


Belial, glad to hear about it lol. Mitsu vs Asta is hard for Astaroth as soon as the Mitsu player don't fear his spacing and throw game anymore. Relic pressure is just insane against him, and Mist transition very hard to deal with. And as I said in the past, there is no way to keep away a good mitsu with Astaroth, IMHO.

 

[Something-Unique]

This thread is hot at the moment why!

IMO she has to work extremely hard vs Astaroth even with her safe tools, because she is always stuck next to him breaking/ducking throws. Outside of Bullrush and Throws he STILL has great damaging tools against her.

He can also control space against her very well (he can against the entire cast actually give or take a few characters). Stepping Amy's 33b(?) = pain for her and just blocking it in general will make it big damage guesses for her. So even if she guesses correctly she doesn't get much except another low damage mix up.

The thing with Astaroth is that he can always come back, not quite as good as Hilde but he can always come back.

S-U: Amy is not that weak to step~G , I used to think so as well, but actually her ability to space supports her mixup. Amy's I play vs are almost immune to step~G which once used to believe a magic tool. If she just spaces in your face her moves will track both step~G and 8wr. She is still ridiculously strong character. in fact I'm constantly wondering if Mitsu really has the advantage b/c on paper Amy has it.

I think Asta is a good matchup for Amy, I'm pretty sure of it. In fact i think its not just good its overwhelming advantage for Amy. I cant even see where Asta-adv idea is coming from. Aside from Amy weakness to throws (which she can negate with TC moves she has in abundance) the rest of the game is pretty much hers. She has ranged TC pokes to stop Asta in his tracks having same or more range than Asta tools, which he cant even punish if he manages to step. and asta has poor step, cant punish her mixups, he is significantly weaker in every aspect vs Amy than 90% of the cast. He has hard time vs 3B/3BA, he cant deal with 2B+K, he cant punish from SS_8wr, her B+K is very good vs Asta. her 66BA is another mid to worry about since 66BA GB hits asta standing (and SS or course). Her wakeup game gets even better considering all the above. Assume asta gets to step 3B or 66B what now? he can do anything about it but stop right there. there could be 66BA there could be 66B8_2, 3B could be followed with A, what can asta do at that point? Answer is - nothing. There are much more such examples, I just covered a few. To even consider punishing something vs Amy Asta needs to be anticipating hard, and that is mission impossible under pressure amy puts him through.

NinjaCW:

That's exactly what I saw when Saitoh was playing Thugish in the NVGA. Word for word in the actual matchup. It sure looked like an advantage to me and to top things off being stuck in a mixup crouch throw setup when Asta blocks 2B+K is rough. That shit must be annoying.

Also I do the same thing against alot of players. Even though some things are safe I like to put them in iFotD mixup on block after some moves sometimes placing heavy pressure on them for using safe shit. With Astaroth that shit is amplified because of his tight ass throw break window and crouch throw mixup with super fast recovery. So i feel bad for Amy who needs to get in.

Two totally different major perspectives that make sense followed into me thinking the same thing as NinjaCW. Followed by Saitoh's realization on both perspectives.

Oh I see ... after playing against the two best Amy in the US I think (Dreamkiller and Thugish) ... I really think Astaroth don't fear Amy at all ... but I could see this match up dead even again. But maybe theirs style of Amy is not the way to handle that match up (Pretty simple, very 50/50 oriented) and maybe then Belial is right !

I dunno really, I'd say 5-5, maybe a slight edge for Astaroth, because his damage are really much higher than her.

KingAce:

Nori's response hit base on ur comment. Tekken is a perfect example with how Mishima's used to be in DR etc. In T5DR I played steve and by far his hardest matchup was the Mishima's. All three of them and to this day as long as where talking about T5DR that shit was an uphill battle of the highest extent. Still in the end hard work makes the matchup more than feasable.

Belial:

To provide visual support on the Kilik vs. Mitsurugi matchup here is a vid that shows what this match bolis down to at the highest levels with direct understanding of both characters. The 50/50 nonsense that Mitsu does is not the best way to limit Kilik because as u know if 2KB is blocked he gets 80-Damage free. This video explains why this match becomes difficult and evens out the playing field. Mitsu can really fuck with Kilik's range game.


As far as Amy goes. Step G does work on her but I could understand u to some extent as Thugish's Amy catches me in step more often than the rest and I haven't been able to figure out why.

Edit:

This vid explains to the masses why Kilik at his core is beast as well. Another Mitsu vs. Kilik matchup. Please watch.

 

[Angrel-San]

Nice matches there SU.

Glad to see people finally accepting Kilik as top after almost a year, LOL!

IMO, Hilde is #1, Setsuka is top, Algol isn't and Ivy should be somewhere in the upper mid and in the Top 10. She has the versatility, the damage, the CFs in CL and SW and an overall stance that relies on safety and mixups along with power in SW.

 

[KingAce]

Any match-up that is 6-4 or 7-3 means one character has an advantage over another, meaning that that character sets the pace of the match.

Zass vs NM isn't the same as Zass vs Amy...by a long shot.

There is a number of moves, that you won't be using for one character yet using for the other. Amy can punishes Zass better than NM can, and in certain situations where Zass would have advantage against NM, against Amy he wouldn't.

That's because Amy dorminates that match-up...
To defeat Amy, Voldo, Kilik etc...a Zass player has to utilize step, spacing, good gi's, throw breaks etc. Basically play as perfect as his skills can let him, with very mistakes. The big difference between those high level characters and hilde, is that if you make a mistake, instead of taking damage you may recover from...against hilde you just die.

And because this is in the back of every players head when facing her, there is no room for relaxing or feeling comfortable, even with a health advantage. While in most match-ups there is some leniancy for mistakes and taking a breather every now and then...against hilde it's like fucking Iraq, you always have to be on your toes, because you never know when a bullet will take off your head.

That's basically what I mean with the word dorminate. I don't mean she is unbeatable...SU and KDZ weren't the first people to defeat hilde in a tournament...infact personally I was disappointed she got as far as she did in evo and nats...but yet it's to be expected.

 

[Belial]

S-U: Thx for the vids, I will re-think my approach to Kilik matchup. Funny though you put Korean vids as example, I played over 60 games vs Kura during my last day in vegas and its his Kilik that made me think this matchup is horrible. Of course it was just freeplay, and I was winning in the end (5-4 but that wasnt a ft5) but thing is against his other characters (Talim, NM, Mitsu, Raph) I had a way easier time, vs Kilik - it was almost frustrating.

Anyway I've learned something from the vids and next time will try this out.

 

[Foxbot]

Also I do the same thing against alot of players. Even though some things are safe I like to put them in iFotD mixup on block after some moves sometimes placing heavy pressure on them for using safe shit. With Astaroth that shit is amplified because of his tight ass throw break window and crouch throw mixup with super fast recovery. So i feel bad for Amy who needs to get in.

Maybe lack of practice has made my English worse, but I cannot understand this paragraph after reading it 3 times ~ care to explain, S-U ?

Also, Setsuka outclasses Asta. The problem is Setsuka is just too damn hard to play hahah.

Here's some more thoughts on Asta vs Amy

I say minor advantage for Amy. I really want to know what people think is the preferred range for Asta to be in vs Amy though.

Amy can also comeback because she has a good enough RO game and a decent (read: better than Asta's) SG damage game. I also find Asta's poor step and Amy's 6BB's weird (read: too good) hitboxes really frustrating in this match-up.

I also think Thugish Pond's Amy kinda froze vs KDZ's Asta at Evo. Actually this is a proof that Asta has some flexibility and can play rush down or spacing depending on what the situation calls for.

Here's some more thoughts on Asta vs Mitsu

I don't really fear Mitsu's range game. b:A and 1A are great vs Asta but I can't think of anything else to be feared. The way I play this match-up is very similar to Hates' way to play SC3 Asta. Just make sure when Mitsu actually closes in, Asta has enough of a life lead by spacing, baiting, and punishing correctly. Also, Mitsu is not really fast compared to the rest of the cast when he's close. About Mitsu's stance game ... RLC B and RLC A are very troublesome but both are punishable. Perhaps the best answer to Mitsu's stance game is to avoid the situation where Mitsu gets into RLC with advantage at mid-to-close range as much as possible. Block more than you'd like to vs RLC at mid-to-close range (beware of your SG though). RLC loses a lot of pressure at far range.

Asta can step both Mitsu's 3B and 2KB. It is unbelievable that God allows this to happen.

 

[Something-Unique]

Angrel-San:

Thanks because I thought both would provide excellent visual support for both cases.

I agree with Hilde being #1 now. I just re-edited the Hilde matchup chart and even though she has 2 bad matchups due to technicality's in almost all her other matches being 6/4's or 7/3's she edges out Kilik by +2 or so points. Here I am thinking because of those two bad matchups Hilde vs. Yoda 3/7 and Hilde vs. Vader 4/6 Kilik would slightly edge her out but I guess not. He has more 5/5's so she squeezes him out. I edited the chart that was in my post on page 29. I also agree Ivy should be Upper mid right under the S+ in S along with Voldo, Amy, Algol in no particular order. I don't have her in S+ because a number of her good tools are unsafe and she has stance restrictions.

So now I have S+ Hilde-Kilik-Setsuka (In order)

King-Ace:

You are correct in that 6/4's or 7/3's are advantage for whatever character has it. The pacing of the match however not so much in a 6/4 as its an advantage but not necessarily enough to dominate just a slight noticeable edge. A 7/3 on the other hand I would agree with you 100%.

The Hilde hit u once and lose thing is true but over exaggerated. She does not kill u in one hit if u know how to position urself. That's what seperates top competitors and in a number of cases even without that in consideration she still doesn't kill u in one shot more often than not. What ur saying is theoretical and in reality only applys to one stage in the game which is the Labyrinth stage. Even the other smallest stage the Raft this isn't always true.

I could say theoretically that a game with a 240-Health bar Kilik could kill u in 3 shots. Since iFotD, Asura JF, and A+B all equal 80-Damage. In reality though that's not what happens 100% but could happen. The same rule apply's to Hilde.

You have to understand Hilde as a character to limit her. All those dangerous tools of hers is not readily available and in understanding how to play against and with her you will know when she has what charge and when she will get it back after using it. Little things like that change the match results drastically. Sometimes I feel like i'm the only one who counts while i'm playing how long which charge comes back. You need to because it helps. In a competitive match such as a tournament u shouldn't be relaxing in the first place so relaxing means nothing.

Belial:

Your welcome I thought that match would be suprising to u. Its old but still stands true. The Stance stuff and abuse of 2KB vs. Kilik is when the matchup becomes more in Kilik's favor. The 2KB more so because of how hard it gets punished compared to how much it does. Its just not an even trade enough but its still worth using. Kilik's WsB can created problems for Mitsu's stances overall because of proper spacing and its ability to evade. When Mitsu plays his excellent spacing game the matchup becomes problematic because he's just as good if not better and at the same time u strip away Kilik's spacing advantage unlike characters such as Amy or Cassandra who have to get in.

Foxbot:

For Astaroth uses Bullrush. Its safe and Kilik cannot punish. In this situation there are a number of options but sometimes due to the mixup situation post block I use iFotD enhancing pressure making the opponent second guess spamming Bullrush against me. This can cause the Astaroth player to duck or do another bullrush and in that scenario I use 66B getting either a basic hit or the AT from 66B. Its just a general strat use sometimes to make the opponent question what safe moves he or she uses against me. With Astaroth its amplified/much worse because his JF throws are tighter/harder to escape, both of them do alot of damage, and twitch duckers can have problems because Bullrush is 16-Frames and throws are 17-Frames. Thats not to mention crouch throws that catch duckers and have stupid recovery frames that make throwing one out safe. Astaroths throw range is enough to make Amy think about how she throws what out.

 

[babalook]

I'm not sure why Hates thinks Cervantes has no bad matchups. He CLEARLY needs to work harder than some chars to win. I think the following chars are bad matchups for Cervantes and I'll post why later:

Setsuka
Amy
X
Mitsu
Hilde
Voldo
Sisters

Again, this is on paper. I do agree w/Hates that a Cervantes player is capable of beating everybody in the cast in the right hands. Just easier said than done:)

id have to agree with that there completely besides the voldo part ive always seen that as a 5/5 but i could be wrong cause a straight up better character.

 

[Something-Unique]

In an attempt to establish a tier list after about a year now and more accurate matchup charts minus a little margin of error does anyone agree that top without question are Hilde-Kilik-Setsuka-Voldo-Amy-Ivy-Algol-Astaroth in no particular order just to speed the process up.

 

[Belial]

Yes, but asta is high

 

[KingAce]

With 31 chars I broke this list down to 5 levels, with 6 chars at each level.
There is an order to this list so...yeah. That's my opinion.

Top: Hilde, Algol, Amy, Setsuka, Kilik, Voldo

High: Ivy, Asta, Yoshi, Mitsu, Sisters

Upper-Mid: Sieg, Lizzy, X, Cervy, Vader, SK

Mid: Taki, Yun, Raph, Zas, NM, Maxi

Low: Talim, Tira, Rock, Mina, Yoda

 

[Saitoh]

In an attempt to establish a tier list after about a year now and more accurate matchup charts minus a little margin of error does anyone agree that top without question are Hilde-Kilik-Setsuka-Voldo-Amy-Ivy-Algol-Astaroth in no particular order just to speed the process up.

That list seems pretty solid to me.

 

[Ceirnian]

Why is Setsuka so high when she has yet to do anything of note? I'm willing to concede on some things and I know she's good, but without any solid evidence I don't agree that she should be considered top. Unless I'm missing something?

 

[BatousaiNori]

In an attempt to establish a tier list after about a year now and more accurate matchup charts minus a little margin of error does anyone agree that top without question are Hilde-Kilik-Setsuka-Voldo-Amy-Ivy-Algol-Astaroth in no particular order just to speed the process up.

I feel if you are going to put Setsuka up there, Cervantes belongs there also. They can both accomplish the same things. Both punish hard, can get out of nearly any situation and are hard to play at high level, but if you can nail their JFs, they are beast. To be more accurate, I think the top 10 are (I'm not putting Algol until the community decides to unban him):

Hilde
Voldo
Kilik
Amy
Ivy
Cervantes
Astaroth
Vader
Setsuka
Yoshi

Then you have everybody else (don't feel like listing them all). Again, this is based IMO on matchups. Setsuka/Cervantes/Yoshi IMO have yet to truly be "proven" they are good.

 

[Something-Unique]

Since people are on the same page and agree let's run with this list the since its accurate for top 10.

Hilde-Voldo-Kilik-Amy-Ivy-Algol-Astaroth Setsuka (In no Order).

Hilde is #1 no question based on her tools and more importantly her matchup chart proves such a claim so lets eliminate her from the process.

Kilik is #2 not because he is the character I use but because his matchups support such a claim minus a slight margin of error if there is some. His tools are apparent even when disregarding matchups. These same tools are all applicable in the form that u need them and not all jumbled up for the same purpose (that comment is the problem I have with Voldo). All of them max out at 80-Damage in open space not including walls etc. One relieves pressure from lows, mids, throws (Asura). The other is applicable from punishment, step, and Post-GI (A+B). The last one is complimentary to his throw game, has a tighter than average throw window, and most importantly is a ringout god and has an alternate version to compliment another direction for ringouts (iFotD).

1B is in general safe from the majority of the cast by utilizing Kilik's ability to make things safe from range. It leads to 63-Damage from CH and if we think of Kilik in multiples of 80 (how I use my Kilik) a follow up 2A is 17-Damage on a standing blocking opponent. I don't think I need to explain WsB to the masses as I think the community knows just how good that moves is. 4A+BBB is another mid that's safe vs. the cast except Scheherazade and leads to 70-Damage.

His lows are applicable in a number of different ways and are in general safe and some of them wreck the SG such as 4B+K. Overall I would even argue he has the best lows in the game and that includes Setsuka (1AAA-46-Damage) because they are safe and give +Frames or leave at neutral, and have phenomenal range. His strongest low 1_3A+B equals 45-47-Damage is the only real unsafe one at -16-Frames and can be escaped but even on escape he gets +3-Frames. So in my eyes its a toss up between him Setsuka and Voldo. He has to much going for him and there are a number of matches he can outright dominate.

I would keep going to continue on other characters but im gonna wait for others due to not create a huge wall of text.Ceirnian and Nori I will explain where i'm coming from with Setsuka in a bit.

Edit:

Ceirnian:

If u look at the top characters in this game u notice all of them seem to have the same thing in common disregarding matchups except Amy.

For example I explained Kilik above, Hilde is self-explanatory but to give more insight into my point u notice that even without her ringout games FC C2B, and C3B are 98-102 Damage on its own. She has +Frames all over the place and is beyond safe. C3A even though it does 59-Damage (again excluding ringouts) it has so many things going for it making it the best move in the game. Astaroth and his ridiculous damage all over the place, can control space, etc. Ivy and her throws which are the best in the game, and she can control every range, and generally does amazing damage all around. Voldo needs no explanation. They all have all the things that make a character great in fighting games.

Setsuka is no different but I think she excells. Her combos in general range from 65-80 overall. She controls space. Her pokes are better than solid. She can net 46-Damage in one shot from a low (that is ridiculous) and even though its unsafe the trade off is more than worth it. Her B+K series can net her 86-Damage and its more than respectable because its -14-Frames and does solid SG damage. 33B zones like nothing else when used properly (I cannot stress how much this move controls space). bA is another solid zoning tool with proper spacing, tracks, and does good damage. Her 234B Command throw is one of the best throws in the game with multiple uses such as ringout and wall. Insane GI game. She is not proven because no one can use her at her potential. There are a couple Korean Setsuka vids floating around but even those do not represent her at her fullest. Its possible that she does not belong in the third place spot but its hard to imagine she is not top 5. The main reason I have her at #3 though is because of Maxou's chart which honestly may be leaving me wandering off a little as his list looks suspect but mostly plausible.

 

[D.I.N.O]

Please explain how Kilik Beats Sophie.

Please explain why Mitsu is not Top 10. But amy is...?

Please explain how Kilik deals with Voldo. You're playing too much theory fighter SU.

How does Ivy lose to Kilik. Ivy keep him out like nothing. And she wins in close. How can he possibly win that match up?? CS/SS>>>>>>FOTD

CERN - Just because people aren't man enough to use Setsuka doesn't mean she's not Top. Mitsu as well, is another character, where no one has gone all out with him (except Krayzie). HE's not Top 5 but he's for sure Top 10.

Kilik is for sure not Top 5. You guys are suffering from the same thing that makes everyone think Hilde/Algol/Amy are Top 3.

 

[Maxou]

As most of you know, I - and I try to be without biais as possible when I say that - think that Setsuka is top 3 in this game. She's like a melting pot of the good points of various character, she's ... allround. Not being the best in one domain in particular but being very good in every domain.
People not being able to play her (taking skill apart, she is a very complicated character to play with) is what prevent her the most from placing at tourneys.

IMO Yoshi being high tier is more possible than Mitsu being one. What he lacks in damage he has in insane RO ability (he's like a mini hilde), speed, and tricks.

I, and I know I am not the only one (hayate thinks the same way), think that Kilik is overrated. But who cares, it's intersting please continue the debate.

 

[Something-Unique]

DINO:

Sophitia:

4 - Kilik

Ramon = #1 Sophitia in the states!

He is also a NY member and a sparring partner whom I compete with all the time. In the past I had this as an even matchup 5/5 IMO. The problem was 236236B, 236236:B.

Sophitia has no mixup; Kilik has a billion. kB, 2A, 1_3B+K, 2K. She can't punish any except 2K (-14-Frames) which has to be anticipated since its a fast low. The double 236B combo is non-existent when u pressure her leaving her no room to execute at tip range in which the combo activates. So tell me without that what is she gonna do in this matchup without that, a mixup, and nothing to punish besides 2K. Last but not least this matchup is one of the most constant ones I have experience with and u don't. Please speak objectively!

Mitsu:

I think Belial and Rekki are more than qualified to tell u his placing more than u. Belial #1 Mitsu & Rekki #2 Mitsu. More importantly those are there mains. Its possible however than Mitsu can be top 10 but even I think most know that Amy is better than Mitsu overall outside of that particular matchup. Again please speak objectively.

Voldo:

For the Kilik vs. Voldo matchup i'm not gonna argue with u as u are a notable Voldo. However I think u whiffed a fairly recent post in this thread made by me which in turn makes u sound stupid for the theory fighter comment. Why?

Page #29 - Post 569; Go back and read before just jumping in and making random comments.

I clearly stated the change in a 5/5 to a 6/4 is based off of results. I have played a number of Voldo's now but to keep things the most accurate I mentioned notable Voldo's.

Manta-Esom-AlphaMale-Bibulous who are all notable Voldo's and all play him differently. Manta is ground focused, Esom is heavy on his BT Stance, AlphaMale is the tried and true mixup between his unseeable safe lows that get everyone and some minor tricks, Bibulous does all the above occassionally. The results speak different form theoretical as Kilik has edged out all of them fairly easy by a noticeable margin except Manta which was a dead tie. This is taking player skill into consideration and mostly speaking about how the matchup plays itself out and not a reflection of who is better than who.. Finally there is a margin of error here that is a possibility.

Ivy:

The same rules that apply to the above Voldo about whiffing the post. I clearly stated that I once thought this matchup was 3/7 for Ivy and then overtime 4/6 and I still kinda think she beats him. However results proved different as the #1 Ivy Malek (SCIV) and I have tested this matchup to death and in the end when things got serious I beat him 3-2 in MM's. He also thinks this is a 6/4 or 5/5. Linkrkc also thinks this matchup is 5/5 and what little games we played was a tie. Woahhzz also thinks this a 5/5 another Ivy that I generally tie with if not a slightly better record. Ring also thinks this is a 5/5. All top notch notable Hilde's.
So what that comes down to is results and consideration of other peoples opinion not just coming into the thread and saying this and that.

Finally my matches are tried and tested. Read the F'ing post because I feel u made me waste time writing this shit. All of my matchups are combined opinions, results, and a little theoretical (Setsuka, Tira).

In an effort to speed the process up of making a tier list can u please leave until u come back and read shit before u post. Most appreciated!

 

[Belial]

I really hate matchup and tier discussions...

What I want to point out - you cant really base your judjement off game results vs players, you cant also base them on theory alone, but theory has a higher chance of being true than match results. Try playing voldo yourself and let another guy play kilik, thats probably the only way to explore matchup. but you really have to give it your all look for counter strats etc. Because when you play character you see a lot of its weaknessess, but you only realize his strengths when its pointed at you.
In my opinion top 3 without question are Hilde, Setsu and Voldo (in this order).
Kilik is being slightly away from them in high tier with Amy.
In my opinion Yoshi, Sophie and Cervy are very overrated characters, which have no real tools to win. Mitsu is decent but not top 10, the only thing that keeps him away from low tier is his damage.
Amy is very underrated by some players b/c very few people use her potential correctly, you can trust me on this Amy is beyond ridiculous in terms of ability to win she is much better than Voldo and Setsu, just Voldo and Setsu has outstanding tools and damage output, but their ability to deal this damage relies on way more factors than Amy's. Kilik, as spammy as he may seem, also has to interact with opponent way more than Amy does, whose reward from KD and ability to KD from any position is so good its like she's doesnt belong in this game.

 

[Something-Unique]

See thats the thing. Because of so many variables I chose to combine all of them and not look at only one. So my results come from theoretical, results, my opinion and other peoples opinion, and correct utilization of said character.

If I look back at the Ivy situation I had made a long post in the Kilik Matchup Thread: Finalized on the first page about all the things Ivy has that shut Kilik down. However I can't use only my opinion over others because there are multiple viewpoints that I may not see or have to be taken into consideration. Also its said that if u matchup two competitors with the same skill or close to it and both have understanding of each character and as a bonus #1 of each character and play it out the advantages/disadvantages will reflect who edges who out. My skill level is not beyond Malek's and his skill level is not beyond mine and both of us understand the matchup from experience. So if Ivy truly does beat him theoretically how can the results reflect me as the overall winner by a slight margin. Its not enough to say who is better skill wise or which character has an advantage and thats how I get 5/5. Seems accurate to me.

In regards to Amy I said this along time ago and it may even be in this thread somewhere. She is special compared to the rest of the cast. On paper her tools don't compare but in a match her output is much higher than the rest. She can simply connect at least 2-3 times faster than anyone else in the game because her mixup and oki is strong and takes almost no effort to apply. So while ur sitting there looking for openings and trying to set stuff up u have already more than likely been hit 2-3 times before u land anything substantial once.