1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Something-Unique said:
DINO:

Sophitia:



Ramon = #1 Sophitia in the states!

He is also a NY member and a sparring partner whom I compete with all the time. In the past I had this as an even matchup 5/5 IMO. The problem was 236236B, 236236:B.

Sophitia has no mixup; Kilik has a billion. kB, 2A, 1_3B+K, 2K. She can't punish any except 2K (-14-Frames) which has to be anticipated since its a fast low. The double 236B combo is non-existent when u pressure her leaving her no room to execute at tip range in which the combo activates. So tell me without that what is she gonna do in this matchup without that, a mixup, and nothing to punish besides 2K. Last but not least this matchup is one of the most constant ones I have experience with and u don't. Please speak objectively!
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We just had our nationals in Germany and had a Sophie-Kilik Final (daGOTTh vs Neo4Life). I'll post the vids when they are up. His 236236B Execution is so sick, there is no fucking way you can pressure her so that she cant execute 236236B. You'll see it when the vid is up. And how cant she punish anything? 22B, 22AB, 22K (she can interrupt 22KB), 46B, She can A+B Asura on Block, WS K, 1_3A+B etc etc...cant punish anything besides 2K?
 
docvizzo said:
We just had our nationals in Germany and had a Sophie-Kilik Final (daGOTTh vs Neo4Life). I'll post the vids when they are up. His 236236B Execution is so sick, there is no fucking way you can pressure her so that she cant execute 236236B. You'll see it when the vid is up. And how cant she punish anything? 22B, 22AB, 22K (she can interrupt 22KB), 46B, She can A+B Asura on Block, WS K, 1_3A+B etc etc...cant punish anything besides 2K?
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Ooh cool I wanna see! I have been dieing to see another Sophie besides the one in Poland and Ramon in the states that executes her moves perfectly.

You just name a whole lot of stuff that Sophie can punish but if ur playing a smart player who knows that matchup they would be crazy to give Sophie room to punish.

When I play Ramon I don't use anything u mentioned above. Its all unsafe.

I use:

i15-Frames 2K -14-Frames -4-Hit +2-CH (12-Damage)
i21-Frames kB -Safe -+2-Hit (15-30-Damage Low or Low & High respectively)
i22-Frames 2A -Safe +0-Hit (18-Damage)
i24-Frames 1_3B+K -Safe +0-Hit (24-Damage)

Those equal the lows I use in that matchup. Now tell me what is she gonna punish from lows. The only risky low I use is based on the opponent which is 1_3A+B -16-Frames +3-Escape (45-47-Damage).

For Mids I use

i21-Frames WsB -12-Frames (+Pushback) -Stun (54-Damage)
i26-Frames 4A+B -12-Frames (+Pushback) -Hit (60-70-Damage Hit-Confirmable)

The only risky mid I use i??-Frames 1B -16-Frames -CH Stun (63-Damage).

Out of that whole list only two things are punishable and the use depends on the players reflexes. So how is she gonna punish me.

Then I have the known Asura, iFotD, A+B.

Again what is he gonna punish. Last but not least 236236B works fine. 236236B, 236236:B is what u can take away because it only works at tippish range. Taking her space away takes that away. The only tool Sophitia has to annoy the shit out of Kilik is B+K since he can't punish it escapes just about everything and u have to worry about the follow up B which if she messes up eats A+B and or Asura if u want to be insulting to her -Frames.
 
Belial said:
In my opinion Yoshi, Sophie and Cervy are very overrated characters, which have no real tools to win.
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Um.......what? How does Cervantes have "no real tools to win" nor Setsuka? iGDR is one of the best moves in the game. You have to play EXTREMELY careful against a good Cervantes player, so I'm not sure where you are coming from at this?
 
Yoshi is like a coin. One side are the players who can use iMCF well along side his other tools, the other are players who rely on his trickery to accomplish anything, which good players will eventually overcome. iMCF is the key to Yoshi. Not many players do it well.
 
We should hold Nationals in France next year.

Anyway tiers are best represented by tournament results and match-ups. In SC4 their is a very small margin that separates characters from top, mid towards lower levels.

Basically what I am saying is between tier levels, the characters are very balanced, and it's very hard to actually tell which character is better just by looking at tools. For that reason tournament results are another variable that we must add when making a list. By doing this we can create match-ups; this leads us to match-up charts and there we can determine tiers.

Obviously the character with the most postive match-ups is Hilde...that's why she's on the top.
 
I don't think this thread is ever gonna go anywhere. I keep coming in here because I like tier discussions for the most part and it seems most agree Hilde-Kilik-Setsuka-Voldo-Amy-Algol-Ivy-Astaroth are top tier. Then again since the beginning everyone thought the same thing for the most part except for the movement of Ivy and Astaroth moving up the tier list.

People just disagree on who belongs where and I guess that will never change for numerous reasons. No harm no foul thats just the way it is.

Which makes me wonder how in the hell does almost every other fighting have a solid tier list. Did someone who is most qualified to do so take the forefront like Tekken, VF, etc.? Did there community comprise? Did the community base it on overall votes? Who knows?

Maxou said:
As most of you know, I - and I try to be without biais as possible when I say that - think that Setsuka is top 3 in this game. She's like a melting pot of the good points of various character, she's ... allround. Not being the best in one domain in particular but being very good in every domain.
People not being able to play her (taking skill apart, she is a very complicated character to play with) is what prevent her the most from placing at tourneys.

IMO Yoshi being high tier is more possible than Mitsu being one. What he lacks in damage he has in insane RO ability (he's like a mini hilde), speed, and tricks.

I, and I know I am not the only one (hayate thinks the same way), think that Kilik is overrated. But who cares, it's intersting please continue the debate.
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Like I said in the last couple pages my placing for Setsuka is based on the little I know about her since I attempted to use her at one point and what sounds plausible from ur list. She is a dominant character and imo there is a slight margin for error in each matchup list. Because Setsuka isn't my main though I value ur opinion more than mine so I took ur word for it even considering some errors imo and I tend to tailor towards the opinion of top three of each character which is why I had her at #3 and even #2 at one point. That ruffles some peoples feathers occassionally. Some people dislike that but I do so because its more accurate which is why I have ur list in this thread. All my character placings are based off of matchups resulting from those who use their character at the closest to best potential or best potential basically.

The one thing that does bother me somewhat about ur list though is from what I heard the French used ur list as the basis for their tier system but I was told that it was only based off ur word because u haven't been in any tournaments over there. So it appears it is all theoretical which is why I say it seems suspect.

In a cold hard reality if these people walked into this thread and gave me matchup charts for each character I would focus only on that because that's the only way this is gonna get finished with the most accurate objectivity.

In no order:

Hilde:

RTD-Ceirnian

Kilik:

Something-Unique-Wing_Zero-Kura-ShadowFox

Mitsurugi:

Belial-Rekki

Ivy:

Malek-Linkrkc-Ring-Woahhzz

Voldo:

Manta-Esom-AlphaMale-Dino-Bibulous

Yoshimitsu:

Lolo-HajimeOwari-Neorussell

DarthVader:

Oofmatic-Justkill

Algol:

Tiamat-RTD-Oofmatic

Amy:

Thugish_Pond-Dreamkiller-STD

Astaroth:

Saitoh-Clint

You get the general idea but I don't think half those people care to even bother. Its the same thing in Tekken or whatever game when ur trying to see the best of the best u look for Nin-Qudans-SperoJin-TheRealyst (T5DR) to name examples for each character.
 
Well, I am happy that the french used my list in their system, but people are free not to believe if they want, although I can answer every questions there are on my list.

I stand with Belial for the top 3 : Hilde, Setsuka, Voldo in this order.

Setsuka is a very good character against the high tiers too, even against Hilde.
 
I think Setsuka is a hard beast to evaluate as far as her placing in the tiers. On paper, she's incredible. But missing any of her just frames can be huge in a match. I know players like to judge a character's tier placing based on the character playing perfectly, but the amount of work involved with her compared to the little work required in getting big damage with Kilik Asura, Voldo 2A+B, Amy wake-up game, releasing a button with Hilde....is a world of difference.

Sure, she could be god-tier, but who has really proven it? She definitely has great stuff to put her near the top. But on average, I would put her slightly below A tier (the voldo amy kilik tier) if not lower, because frankly....she's too damn hard to play =P

My 2 cents, what does everyone else think?
 
Fuck it i'm picking her up indefintely for any tournament other than a major. Didn't work to well for me with Hilde but i'm gonna focus on her hardcore. OmegaXCN be prepared for my fail Sets or success Sets. Gonna be linking up with u guys soon to session at aneudees.
 
Something-Unique said:
Fuck it i'm picking her up indefintely for any tournament other than a major. Didn't work to well for me with Hilde but i'm gonna focus on her hardcore. OmegaXCN be prepared for my fail Sets or success Sets. Gonna be linking up with u guys soon to session at aneudees.
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That makes 2 of us then, well i'll be playing her even at majors.
 
NinjaCW: Cool what a coincidence. I love Kilik to much to trade him in at a major. l don't mind anything else though. I already went that route with Hilde for like two tournaments but I dont think me and her get along to well. Setsuka should be fun though but with a broken PS3 I imagine my progress will be slow with her.

Dreamkiller: Your pocket Sets is ass! Hahaha!
 
You can easily make a tier list if you have every chars match-up chart. It is simple you just look at the positives, evens, and negatives; count them then place characters in the list accordingly.

It's not that hard.

I am pretty sure other communities just go with what the Japanase say...if they say jump? well you know..
 
Ask anyone.

The best Setsuka in the US is KDZ's.
I hit her JF's almost 100%, and I don't even practice them.
I will also embarrass every other Setsuka that tries on the EC.
Believe it.

Just so you guys know, I was going to be replacing my Cass with Setsuka gradually, so I've been practicing her a lot.
SU, NinjaCW, you don't have to do shit with her. I'll handle it so you can make a teaaaar list.
 
Lol at pocket Elf. Ms. Charizard should be banned for her voice alone.

If Maxx lends me his copy of SCIV for a few days I guarantee u my Setsuka will be the best worlwide except maybe Korea. Thats larger than the east coast. Care to wager who wins more at a future Koga with Sets under the condition that Maxx lends me his SCIV! Muahahaha
 
This stuff is starting to get to your head.
You haven't even won a tournament, a single tournament past the first one you ever entered. Not one.

I've won over 10-20 tournaments since the start of SC4.
I've put you out of more tournaments than I care to remember.
Lets not even start this again! You're not going to do better than me!!
It's a fact written in heavens.

It's destiny.
<3 YOU JUST DONT KNOW.

Also, Setsuka is a bit too complex for you.
You should stick to pressing B+K and wsB with Kilik :p
 
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