1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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@ Foxbot
NO ONE has the same success breaking JF throw like regular throw and I'll tell you why.
You can mash on normal throws and break them 95% of the time you can't do this with JF throw.
You wouldn't believe how many times I hear someone say " IM FUCKING MASHING ON B THROW AND HE GETS ME ANYWAY" stuff lol

JF throw gives you VERY little space to break. You can ask anyone that has played me how come they are ducking and NOT trying to break my throws. I only do JF A throw if they are powerful enough to even break my throw in general which so far no one has been lol.

@ Sieg matchup
What I'm trying to say is that EVEN with his safeness and mobility he's constantly next to Asta and he will have to hit me a lot more than my ONE hit will do to him. Yes he "could" mix me up with 3 stuff but I still win out with damage when i guess right.
6ab > 2a+k is more than 3 > k
Ok so he's baiting it now and just doing 3 and I start throwing we won't even get started on that damage and how it is out done by any three of 3's follow ups. That move unless he's hitting Asta on CH with it 80% of the time it's just giving Astaroth more and more chances to kill him.

His spin tricks and b+k all die to delayed moves let alone COUNTER HIT DELAY moves.
 
NinjaCW said:
@ Foxbot
NO ONE has the same success breaking JF throw like regular throw and I'll tell you why.
You can mash on normal throws and break them 95% of the time you can't do this with JF throw.
You wouldn't believe how many times I hear someone say " IM FUCKING MASHING ON B THROW AND HE GETS ME ANYWAY" stuff lol.
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This is true and I found this out recently. In the past I used to do better at breaking Astaroth's JF's but somehow over time its I have gotten worse at breaking his throws. Ramon has a pocket Astaroth that is heavy on Asta's JF throws and for a while I couldn't break his throws no matter how much I mashed giving me problems just off of that alone. It was the same thing with Saitoh and Astaroth's in general.

However I can now break them all the time outside of the 50/50 Mixup due to the white flash. Pressing the corresponding button once at the same time of the flash lets u escape them 100% of the time. Somehow over time I just began mashing throw breaks and now i'm back to just one tap and the results are so much better.

So in all honesty u can't factor in JF's as an advantage since it can be escaped in high level terms. The advantage that comes from Asta's throws are his throw range and damage due to this 50/50 mixup system in SCIV.
 
@SU
That is what I was originally talking about but people were saying you can mash out of it which is just wrong. In high level play even then people still mash on throws but I don't factor in B throw as much cause against people who break my throws (which isn't often) I do A throw cause it sets me up better.

@everyone
Is there at least an agreement on top 10 characters in the game in no order?
 
@NinjaCW

Simple. Breaking a throw nets you no reward. Much worse, the one throwing is at advantage again. Ducking a throw gives you free launchers. Very good to at least decent reward compared to what Asta can hit you with for ducking.

Sieg WANTS to be next to Asta, despite him dominating much more at mid. You constantly bring up throws as argument for Asta. What do you think Sieg will be doing, poke you with BB for a CF?
And again, I have to question your math. What "ONE move" gives you such a big lead in damage again?
Lets take a brief look at moves that both characters will throw out at closerange the majority of the time and that make up the vast part of the damage dealt:

Asta:

6K (can TC throws, but unreliable)
Bullrush (also TCs throws)
Throws
Step~Bullrush
Ducked throw~Bullrush

Sieg:

3B (also TCs throws)
B6_3K_1K
Throws
Step~3B
Ducked throw~WS B

As far as I see it your throws are the only part where Asta has a damage lead on Sieg. Its 10-20ish, nothing to be neglected, mind you, but still far from requiring Sieg to hit you multiple times for ONE of your hits. If anything, he will have to hit you one more time than the other way around. Now lets take a look at the primary whiff-punishers and ch-fishers, tho... 3B beats everything in terms of damage. Especially on ch. The great R.O. and wallsplat distance just adds up to that. Which is why the block punishment issue was brought up in the first place. Its not that Asta cant punish it at all, its that he cant punish it without risking putting him in a disadvantageous situation afterwards or getting punished/interrupted. The mix-up IS in his favor, but its still a mix-up and therefore inferior to what other chars can do to Sieg when they block that move. Meaning its much harder to discourage Sieg from using that move.

No half-decent Sieg will use B+K against an Astaroth. Ever. Period. Well, unless theyre really used to auto-GIing A+B on reaction or want to duck your throw to wall-splat/R.O. with SBH A afterwards, in which case its well worth the risk. Theres no point to spinning around here as step is a superior option in pretty much every scenario. Delayed attacks of any kind also lose to 3B.

As for the topic of JF-throws. Those are your experiences with your competition. I already stated mine. If you wont take my word for it you can ask Docvizzo about his experiences against my Sieg.
 
Close range vs Sieg :
4b
6b
throws
bull rush
6k (if he's getting crazy with attacks)
6a
1k
1b
ducked throws - bull rush is perfect because of how high the damage can be for Asta's wake up game IMO

Sometimes I get risky and will put a 22b on the screen if I'm feeling lucky. But yea I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree based on our experiences and input on this matter lol. At the most we can agree on an even 5-5 match up but in my mind it's 6-4 as it is in yours.

This discussion has went well though.
 
It's 6:4 for astaroth till a sieg can prove me wrong on the ring ! Maybe you think u're better than DTN or icecoldedge or KDZ ? I'm not even counting others sieg in France like samsam :p
 
I dont know about everybody, but mashing is not the way I , or any of local players here break throws, ukemi or whatever. We only do precise input. If I am familiar with playing a character the only way I'm not breaking a throw is incorrect guess. I can see where you coming from, but I wouldnt count hard throw break as a factor. If you build a theoretical model of an opponent as we do in tier thread there is no way he wouldnt consistantly break throws.
 
Sacharja said:
I have to disagree on your assessment on this matchup (and some others, but more on that later).
First off, from my experience the matchup boils down to who can contain the other character better and apply mix-ups. With loss of many of his effective blocktraps from 3 Asta can longer keep Sieg locked down effectively and has to rely on hit-fishing and holes in Siegs momentum-flow to get his game going, while the latter actually gained options in that department and can stay on the offensive much easier. While Asta may still have a slight edge in terms of dmg potential, that only really applies to throws, post-G.I. and longrange long recovery whiff-punishment, but that sorta evens out, because Sieg has an easier time forcing his damage and can punish Asta harder than the other way around (most noteably when 3B is considered). Astaroth can NOT play an effective spacing game vs Siegfried. iWS A, unsafe as it may be, is an incredibly effective tool against Astas longrange game and shuts down the vast majority of his options. At the range where 44A, 4A, AB, 66A and other moves become a threat, Sieg is in range to respond with his own spacing moves, which outspeed Astas arsenal easily. Because of how Sieg cripples Astas spacing and how both characters work their main offense, most of the fight usually takes place in closerange, where Sieg holds the advantage in speed and Asta in damage. The end result mainly depends on the throw-breaking and anti-throw/throw-punishment options on both sides and again how often each combatant can force mix-up situations. Stage matters little as both characters have good RO and wall-games with Asta - again - getting more bang for his buck and Sieg bringing more options.

5.5-4.5 in Siegs favor imo.
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I'm a newbie to the forum here, but I agree. Wow!! Do people really think Astaroth is a match for Seigfried? Seigried has basically the same range, is much faster, with WAAAAAAY more mix-ups. This match-up should be more like 7-3 Seigfried. They both have about the same ring out capability, but Seigfried's ring outs are much harder to see coming, giving him the ring out advantage. Just my opinion, but a very experienced opinion. Seigfried is one of the few characters at the top of the food chain folks. Rather disappointing that many don't recognize this.
 
Saitoh said:
It's 6:4 for astaroth till a sieg can prove me wrong on the ring ! Maybe you think u're better than DTN or icecoldedge or KDZ ? I'm not even counting others sieg in France like samsam :p
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This post reads gansta all over it! Yo Saitoh I think we rubbed off on you over here america! 1000+ points goes to you!

You forgot Kpc and OffbeatNinja though. In all honesty I don't kow who is better between DTN, OffbeatNinja, Kpc, and IceColdEdge with Siegfried.

Rockafella said:
Seigfried is one of the few characters at the top of the food chain folks. Rather disappointing that many don't recognize this.
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Couldn't be more wrong!
 
Astaroth has 6 frame grabs that either RO or take off 70+ damage. Oh, and they are very difficult to break on reaction. Bullrush is still one of the top 5 RO moves in the game IMO. Safe, goes under highs/throws, at the right range, hard to step. Siegfried IMO has to work a tad harder to win in this fight (this is after playing over 50 matches w/ICE, plus knowing him since SC2 and playing LOTS of Astaroth players)
 
Something-Unique said:
You forgot Kpc and OffbeatNinja though. In all honesty I don't kow who is better between DTN, OffbeatNinja, Kpc, and IceColdEdge with Siegfried.
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Just wanted to point out that it's more a matter of who is the best Siegfried *at playing Asta matchup*. Player Y may be better overall but sucks in Asta matchup compared to player X who plays well against asta but not so well against many other characters.

About JF grabs, I think they are a factor to take into consideration, though how much is debatable. When doing tiers people try to imagine a player who is super good in every category but this is generally unrealistic. No doubt there are individuals who have no more trouble breaking JF grabs compared to normal ones, but this will not be true for all high level players. You may get a player who is much better at spacing but has a bit more trouble breaking the JF grabs, compared to a player who is not as good at spacing but better at breaking JF grabs.

Basically what I'm saying is that you can't totally separate the character tiers from the players. People need to keep in mind tiers are meant to be practical in some way, or at least I think so.
 
Those are possibilities and to eliminate discrepancies like that I have chosen to accept the opinions of top 3 of each character.

So lets throw out an example. If the three top Siegs all have 6:4 and the three top Asta's have 6:4 then both cancel out into a 5:5 and I don't think either side would argue either if it came down to that.

JF's throws do make a difference especially Ivy with her tight window on her throw with or without the JF. I disagree though on how much its important because in multiple fighting games the high level competitors are known to escape such things and thats what tiers are based off (the game played at its highest level in terms of practicality). Things such as seeable lows that won't work in high level but decimate low level competitors etc.

General Question:

Can Sieg users in this thread tell me just the number of Sieg vs. Amy no thorough explanation needed. Please provide ur own opinion.

Ex. Stryker, OffbeatNinja, IceColdEdge, Kpc,
 
Rockafella said:
I'm a newbie to the forum here, but I agree.
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As forum partner your opinion is accepted, but as SC player you are all the way wrong.

Rockafella said:
Wow!! Do people really think Astaroth is a match for Seigfried? Seigried has basically the same range, is much faster, with WAAAAAAY more mix-ups.
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Astaroth is a killing machine man! It doesn't matter how fast you attack, he only needs two chances to deplete your health bar! And yeah Siegf have more mixups but Asta have many many tricks to do and have a lot damage if you guess wrong.

Rockafella said:
This match-up should be more like 7-3 Seigfried. They both have about the same ring out capability, but Seigfried's ring outs are much harder to see coming, giving him the ring out advantage.
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7:3? Are you fucking kidding me? I said its 6:4 and Sach 5.5:4.5 and that's really close results, but 7:3 is insane even against Talim or Taki.

Rockafella said:
Seigfried is one of the few characters at the top of the food chain folks. Rather disappointing that many don't recognize this.
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Man, you have to be more cautious in yours opinions... already the top of the food chain is full. Kilik, Algol, Hilde and Amy have the entire space taked.

-Stryker-
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Something-Unique said:
General Question:

Can Sieg users in this thread tell me just the number of Sieg vs. Amy no thorough explanation needed. Please provide ur own opinion.
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5.5:4.5 Siegfried won.

-Stryker-
 
@S-U

Problem with that is: how are you going to gauge who is part of that top 3 and who isnt? Because you make it sound like youre not accepting anyone elses opinion outside that personal selection of yours.

As for your question. 5:5. For now.
 
Sacharja said:
@S-U

Problem with that is: how are you going to gauge who is part of that top 3 and who isnt? Because you make it sound like youre not accepting anyone elses opinion outside that personal selection of yours.

As for your question. 5:5. For now.
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I could be wrong, but I think he's basing it off of tournament standings, travel, etc. Lots of people "say" they are good w/a char but don't leave their couch to prove it.
 
well, actually even match vids can be used to see if a person is good w a character. but so far there are no Maxou vids.
 
Keep in mind nothing in life is 100% accurate! This listing attempts to be as accurate as possible in the most efficient way possible. It is based on a combination of people who have more than respectable placings in tournaments, correctly analyzing videos, taking in consideration who and what the level of direct competition is, word of mouth, general background, etc.

However even the best sometimes can't be 100% correct which is why there are 3 opinions. For example I would assume Omega would have Zasalamel as top tier but we all know that isn't true. That guy is just simply a beast and he can make some matches look that way with his superb reaction. Or in other cases Kura who is another player with unexplainable reaction. I also know the player base and have played against almost everyone within that player base including Omega and Kura for example. Those are some of the methods I use in trying to be objective as possible. However in some cases a definitive top player of there character may be excluded for the next in line due to language barriers.

To give you an example of the kind of people i'm asking here goes a semi-list:
It is not 100% complete!

If u look at his list you will notice there are more than 3 people in some of them. Its not about who the number 1, 2, or 3 is. What it is about is managing opinions in a way in which its efficient. The top 3 is more than enough and for accuracy they are the most likely to utilize their character the most efficiently and know their matchup base the best. So while 3 may not define accuracy completely it is more than enough.

Algol - Tiamat
Amy - Thugish_Pond, Dreamkiller
Astaroth - Saitoh
Cassandra - KDZ, JTO
Cervantes - Hates, Kira, Nori
Darth Vader - Oofmatic
Hilde - RTD, Ceirnian
Ivy - Malek, Linkrkc, Ring,
Kilik - Something-Unique, Wing-Zero
Mitsurugi - Belial, Rekki
Nightmare - Keev, Lau, Tiamat, Shenrii, SilentWall
Rock - Lau, BentleeT
Seong Mi-Na - InsaneKhent, Page, Renki
Setsuka - Cube
Siegfried - DTN, OffbeatNinja, IceColdEdge, Stryker, Kpc
Sophitia - Ramon, MTFighter, Suirad
Talim - Kura, Oofmatic
Voldo - Manta, Esom, Alphamale, Dino
Xianghua - Kayane
Yoda - Oofmatic
Yoshimitsu - Lolo, HajimeOwari
Yun-Seong - Seung Cheul
Zasalamel - Omega, Freaky-Styley

I repeat again it is not 100% complete!

Kingusha (Russia) looks like another solid Setsuka and so does Nando (DR). HumanTyphoon is also on his way to waking up but I don't think he has tapped into her just yet.
 
-For Asta, you can probably try NinjaCW or Cepzeu

-For Vader, I guess JustKill(?)

-I guess another Hilde could be KDZ or MichaelJackson?

-You can probably try asking Jimmypikachuchoi for X

-For Yunseong, Stryder?
 
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