1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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S-U: I dont know about Kingusha's setsu, but his Astaroth is among the best in the world (you can see it from our channel), just in case you want his opinion on matchups, he thinks Asta vs Mitsu is bad for asta (I beat him 8-1 in a recent session haha) and Asta vs Amy is horrible for Asta. Regarding everything else I might ask him when I get a chance.
 
How did I know that as soon as Tom Brady posted in this thread that the vids of him getting beat were gonna pop up soon after that?
 
Patience...
Reflex...
Sharp vision...
Acknowledgment...
Pressure tolerance...
Self confidence...
Desire to win...
Excellent pad/stick management/usage...
and a Six sense...

All those qualities are necessary to beat the tiers barriers and become a winner doesn't matter which character you pick; but, in an endurance test the character with more options and power will lend the victory to its user, cause an easiest character move-list will have less finger job and less reasons to fail... its not the same do 6A, than 66B:AK or something worse; trust me, sometimes in desperate moments I try to do 66B and the (absurd) short buffering in this game only understand the 6B giving me some awful consequences.

There's not impossible characters (even Rock) but when all the basic qualities in player 1 are more accurate and have less pressure for the win than player 2 it doesn't enough reason to think that the player 1 will win. So lets be real the number one goal of every player in the world is to have fun playing this game! it doesn't matter if you win or lose! (its better when you win but sometimes I fell more enthusiasm to play again when I lose), and the second goal is to be competitive, no just a simple player like the most... and my third goal (I don't know if somebody share it) its to have some hobby in common with the people that are like me! watching anime, playing videogames and have fun in the process.

Well, I can say that this threat its part of the things I like more about this community. Have fun.

-Stryker-
 
Belial:

I will take a look at them Asta vids.

Stryker:

Thanks for the Sieg vs. Amy input. Also I don't know if u would mind getting a matchup chart for Setsuka from Nando and Zasalamel from Omega if u can. If u can most appreciated and can u PM it to my inbox!
 
How did the tierlist completely focus in on Astaroth lol. I probably should've never said nothing lololol

It's funny how when the game came out, the "old other site" considered Astaroth a crappy character and everyone bombed on him. Now, all of a sudden, he has all the answers against all of the top characters, despite not being as "good" as he was in SC3.

Good thing people have seen the light other than Hilde's charge moves and Algol's bubbles.
 
i think the opponent always has to work a bit harder against asta unless its a terrible matchup for him but there not many of them, hows the setsukas coming guys?
 
Hates: not necessarily, it depends on how you do the math. ex, after bullrush hit, 2B+K , 3B_3 is a mix up. But its pretty difficult to calculate the av. damage for those options (especially given the different delay on 3B etc). I do the damage calc for Bullrush/Thr mixup and its not anything special, but I dont add wakeup damage to bullrush.

When I do math I view throw damage as Admg+Bdmg/4 (i divide by two to get an av thr dmg, then by two to include a 50% break possibility into equation) but in reality the damage on his sucessful throw is so big that even 2/3 or 3/4 breaks will still be winning you more games than grant loses.

I know it sounds silly, but math often fails me in this part of series...
 
I definitely see what you're saying, and I actually calculate throw damage similarly (with a few tweaks for characters with really lopsided damage disparities), but I think it's also important to factor in the amount damage you risk taking should your throw be ducked, etc, compared to how hard you can punish someone for ducking if they expect a throw.

In other words, a character's throw game is really only as strong as his mids.

Example: Cervantes (since I know him best) vs. Astaroth

First, some universals--if the opponent defaults to a crouch for defense, Astaroth's best options for defeating that crouch are 6K and 4B (you can usually see bullrush's startup and stand, though of course not 100% of the time. Still, for the purposes of this example I'll assume you are blocking bullrush on reaction more often than not). While 6K gives good frames, its damage is negligible and it is unsafe. 4B is safe, but it's not very damaging, either, and the frames are poor. In order to do serious damage, then, Astaroth has to start using low grabs.

Now, in Cervantes' case, every throw he ducks means Astaroth takes ~70 damage. Every low throw that whiffs means Astaroth takes ~65 damage. If those same throws connect, there's still a 50% chance of escaping them, whereas if Astaroth chooses the incorrect throw he is losing 1/4 of his life. Now, you might say this is to some degree just the way throw mixups work in Soul Calibur (at least for characters with low throws, anyway), but most characters have a strong enough mid launch that, more often than not, it's smarter most of the time to simply stand and attempt to break a normal throw rather than duck and get launched. Astaroth's mids, by contrast, are primarily annoyances or, in the case of 6K, a setup for another 6K_throw mixup. 6K, this one reliable, non-trivial mid, is unsafe. Cervantes gets aB for about 36 damage.

Before this gets too baroque, let me summarize:

Command throw- Astaroth guesses correctly: 50% chance of doing 70ish damage, on average. Astaroth guesses incorrectly, 100% chance of receiving 70ish damage.

Low throw- Astaroth guesses correctly: 50% chance of doing about 60 damage on average. Astaroth guesses incorrectly, 100% chance of receiving 65ish damage.

While other characters can use the threat of fast, moderate-to-high damage mids to make opponents more often than not stand, thereby making throw attempts "safer" against ducking, Astaroth's best anti-ducking move can be punished for more damage than it in fact inflicts, which makes me feel much freer to simply duck.

So yes, Astaroth's throw game will inject big spikes of damage into matches here and there, but pursuing it exposes him to a great deal of risk. More risk, I'd argue, than many cast members simply because of his rather anemic ability to punish opponents for crouching.

Anyway, does that all make sense? It's late here and I am not feeling particularly eloquent...
 
That makes a shit load of sense actually. Though I find in a number of situations i16-Frames Bullrush cannot be ducked because there is only a 1-Frame split between that and i17-Frame throws. So your only option is to twitch duck and in one frame its risky. Ramon and his pocket Astaroth loves to do that by masking them in frames. So its come to the point where I just stand and guess and on occassion duck for WsB.

Generally though your comment makes sense for those characters who have a high damage output like that from relatively fast mids.
 
Bullrush is i18.
Also, Hates is not talking about twitch ducking, but rather ducking preemptively and reacting to the visible startup of bullrush.
 
Before this gets too baroque, let me summarize:

Command throw- Astaroth guesses correctly: 50% chance of doing 70ish damage, on average. Astaroth guesses incorrectly, 100% chance of receiving 70ish damage.

Low throw- Astaroth guesses correctly: 50% chance of doing about 60 damage on average. Astaroth guesses incorrectly, 100% chance of receiving 65ish damage.

Alright, I can understand how you'd get 70 dmg out of a ducked throw. But how do you get a free 60 dmg out of a CT? Given how safe a CT is, you'd have to almost anticipate it to be able to punish it that hard.
And then when you factor in the bullrush (which isn't that slow to be negligible), this theory could fall apart.

So yes, on paper, it doesn't seem to be that good for Astaroth vs. some characters, but in reality, the throw game of Asta is greatly in his favor, vs anybody.
 
i lost to tira because i quit sc and was playing mkvsdc where u need to hold L2 to ss and r2 to block, its kinda hard going from one setting to the other. even still, i placed very high and beat several good players in that tourney without playing the game once in 30 days.

i lost to algol because the game was new and i had never faced him before.

yeah i lost to offmatic at 5:30am but i placed 9th in that tourney that had over 120 ppl there.

im back into sc4 hard now so we'll just see how i do.

end......
 
i don't believe either that bullrush is blockable on reaction if you're crouching
also, don't forget the "close to the edge" situation : as soon as a bullrush can ring you out... The A+G command throw is nearly free (since B rings out)
 
Bullrush is i18.
Also, Hates is not talking about twitch ducking, but rather ducking preemptively and reacting to the visible startup of bullrush.

Thanks for the error in Frames but it still proves the point that its a 1-Frame split. You cannot preemptively duck and react to a 1-Frame split difference if the setup is executed that way. The only thing you can do is twitch duck but in 1-Frame u have to be stupid accurate.

I'm gonna throw this out and say in a setup like that Bullrush is not seeable enough to react to that situation. The fact is you have to guess that situation.

Also musashi is right Astaroth's crouch throws are stupid safe. Its one of the gripes I have with this game how in some cases you can just whiff a throw and recover fast enough to still beat ur opponent out. It happens alot with Asta from his CT recovery.

Though Hates still has a general point as far as the regular throws go in that if its ducked the reward for some characters is just as great as his attempt. Also to be honest the damage from getting hit by Bullrush into his below average oki (post that situation) isn't a bad risk to take vs. his potential throw damage.

I still don't think overall that it places a dent on Asta's powerful throw game since generally the same can be said for any characters throw game and we are not even factoring delaying things such as throws catching ur opponent in ducking recovery etc.
 
Again, reacting to a 1-frame-split difference is not the point, its about reacting to visual clue. It has little to do with the speed difference between the options, if you choose one defensive option right away and only change that when you see the animation of a move that beats that.
That being said, yeah, I dont believe it either. Just clarifying for Hates, since hes in happy happy fun dreamland right now. If, however, he can do that ish consistently, more power to him. For now, tho, proof that this is possible remains to be seen.
 
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