I'll only speak for some of the characters I play.
Nightmare:
Buffs- Make WR K either safe on block and negative on hit or unsafe and advantage on hit.
Nerfs- Make 22_88B more unsafe. I guess nerf his wall damage a bit too, like others have said. He's got enough resets to compensate, anyway.
Tira:
Buffs - Have JS 2ab be hit confirmable, or have it knock down on CH. One of the two.
3K should be 0 on hit, at least. Just not -4,
Nerfs - Can't really think of any. She's fine the way she is, for the most part.
And that's all. This cast is pretty good the way it is, though I do agree some characters are in more need of buffs than others.
my last post and this is for zwei and I agree what Lolo said bring back the tekken moves based on the timer because right now his tekken moves are non existent.....ok for zwei.
A+B- This has to be more safer right now its -16 on block which if someone has matchup knowledge on him pyrrha gets 236 b and maxi gets 6A+B even alpha can punish it with Jf twister 2x for 75+ damage zzzzz
6a-less unsafe bad enough this move can be stepped in a certain direction and it's a high.
44B- faster frames
3A BE- make it hit confirmable and safer on block
B+G-Remove ein's cooldown on this move when ein is out. His throw game needs to be more threatening right now everyone just breaks A and doing the sorry B throw will not help u.(maybe give him an Oki option after the B throw)
1k BE- make it delayable
k this is all I have now. Interested to see what belial thinks about this
I feel that Nightmare's 22B should be the way it is.
Nightmare is more of a heavy blocktrap spacing/pressure character compared to sieg. Its the way he's designed. He's got 66B+K, 44A, 44B for this. 22B serves the same purpose and I think its meant for that purpose... that it has to come from quickstep suggests that it isnt an evasive move to throw out from disadvantage. Sieg's on the other hand is more about evasion IMO since it is more unsafe, and it can come out immediately.
I haven't read the entire thread, but I have read much of it, and here are my two cents, as a mid-level player.
I feel like Mitsurugi has too much of everything (damage, speed, safety). I'd like to give him a teensy bit less of everything, while at the same time taking care of his stupid stuff. I was under the impression that he is supposed to be a mixup-oriented character, so I can't help but think that he shouldn't be able to frame trap as well as Leixia and Viola just because some scrub's mashing buttons with him, and for way more damage, too.
I feel like something needs to be done about Viola's 6B+K, because it makes her pretty braindead since you can 6B+K into pretty much whatever you want.
Somewhat late to the party here, but I want to say that I intensely disagree with the notion of nerfing Cervantes' 3B on block. While the other changes discussed aren't entirely beyond the realm of what's reasonable, I suppose, a stab-punishable 3B seems excessive because of the overall logic by which he operates.
Specifically, most characters operate on this basic model: safe-to-moderately unsafe pokes and throws in order to open people up for their more substantially unsafe combo-starters. Most of these pokes aren't terrible on block, and on hit they generally confer enough minor advantage to set up more sustained offense. Cervantes' basic game is the inverse of that; his aB and 1AB are extremely unsafe and, on hit, leave him at -4 and -6, respectively, which makes maintaining offense a more complicated proposition. To compensate for that, Cervantes has substantial meterless damage (despite the execution barrier) and a 3B that is generally only AA-punishable.
Moreover, Cervantes' 3B is i19 instead of i18, as most 3Bs are. A 1-frame difference doesn't mean much, right? Well, in practice, it actually does. Cervantes misses out on several 3B block punishes, but, more importantly, he cannot 3B punish in a large number of JG scenarios where even characters with hyper-damage like Viola can create havoc. Additionally, an i19 3B makes it substantially easier to twitch duck and beat a 3B/throw mixup using one well-timed response.
So I suppose I'd be in favor of a -15 3B with the caveat that it executed in 18 frames. Otherwise, leave the pirate alone. He plays fine as-is, provided opponents learn his frames and give a little thought to how they influence a smart player's choice of options.
Patro:
i think a little nerf of trow damage could be nice.
55 and 65 for A e B trows is too damaging cause pat have also good poke and advantage on hit( i.e. 1k)
I think 55>50 and 65 >60 could be more balanced
I am only going to speak for Aeon. 3A:
Smaller freeze on block (-14-->-11) Reason: Still punishable by fast characters but would keep it safe in some match-ups. 1K:
Increase damage (18pts-->21pts)
Increase opponent freeze on hit (-2-->+1) Reason: In it's current form it's i22(can react to it), punishable on block(-18), (-2) on hit, and 18 damage which deals less damage in yellow health. It's numbers don't add up. 44BAA:
Increase tracking after 1st hit lands Reason: After landing 1st hit Aeon goes into BT. It would allow for consistent combos. 6BB:
Force standing on opponent after 1st B. Reason: In it's current form it's only a NC on a standing opponent. It should be a NC on a crouching opponent as well.
iGDR, which can't be buffered and carries with it a massive risk of punishment on failure. If we're completely factoring out things like degree of difficulty, why isn't this thread awash in people demanding massive nerfs for almost everything in aPat's arsenal? Be pragmatic, or at least be consistent.
Here my list, of things that concern me. Most of the issues of characters like Mistu Viola, and Alpha Patroklos etc.. here have be address. So I wont address them. I also I haven't heard of any talk of Voldo, I am sure he has things that should be address but I don't really know much about him so I cant comment. But I hope someone who does know, will.
Ivy
Ivy
2A+B--> Increase damage from 22-->25. Due to damage being low revenge type moves are able to beat this, e.g Nightmare A+B. Which should not because this is not a poke, but a knock down.
WR[A]--> This should be -10 on block instead of -16. This is already negative on hit on gives nothing on counter hit. Damage is only 14. This should not be punishable let alone stab punishable.
6 [B ]8_2--> This should be a little bit safer. Being -28 is too harsh. The risk and reward doesn't make sense. It should be -20 as then it can't be spammed, but allow it to be safe enough that it can't be punished severely. The move can be JG to so its another factor that wont let it be spammed. The main purpose of this tool is to let the opponents know Ivy can still fight at that range if they choose to be there.
4A+B--> The GI window need to start earlier. Right now it not a reliant tool to be used as a reverse mix up or against certain strings. This Gi's only horizontals mids
WR B+K /BT B+K--> Same as above GI window need to start earlier this move. This tool cannot be used a reverse mix up because the GI window placed awkwardly.
CS/iCS/--> Increase damage by 5 points. CS 75-80, iCS-85-90. Also make the break window smaller. I don't see why simple commands such as Pyrrha or Omega Pyrrha 66A+G and Astaroth 63214 B+G/A+G have the same break window as Ivy's CS.
SS--> Increase damage from 65-70. This would make SS a much more viable option and make it worth the meter usage.
6B+K/6[B+K]--> Allow it to have TC properties. Its a slow and linear tool, giving TC properties will allow it to be more usable, in exchange make it more negative on block from -2 to -10 or unsafe.
Astaroth
Astaroth
22_88B--> Decrease damage from 55-45
22_88B BE -->Decrease damage from 45-35
It meant to reduce the following combo after his B grab or CE as they do to much damage and have the potential to ring out.
66K BE as people have already said what need to be said. The revenge I think right now counters all moves less than 32 damages. I think that should change where it counters moves do 25 less damage or pokes. Its too strong and covers a lot of characters attacks.
Pyrrha
Pyrrha
3B--> Remove push back, so that character can punish this move. It is to spammable vs a majority of the cast.
66A-->Make it negative -11 or -12 on block.
Pyrhha Omega
Pyrhha Omega
236B:4--> reduced damage from 65 to 60
236B4--> reduce damage form 55 to 50
For this type of punisher, that can punish a lot of moves and for it to wall combo and RO it should not do so much damage.
236236B:4--> reduced from 82 to 72. With clean hit it does like 90 or so. It just too much for a single attack right now.
236236B 4--> reduce from 72 to 65
An i15 move that can use 236236 to STC a lot of attacks and is only i13 or i14 punishable. And due to the push back not many character can punish. Fix it where the push back is less so character can punish it or force a strong mix up after block.
Patroklos
Patroklos
66B--> Making this -10 on block while removing push back than making it punishable. That way the opponents can contain Patroklos and force a strong mix up. This way Patroklos can't spam 66B.
66A--> Make it more unsafe on block. From -6 to -13. As a horizontal mid and far range it very strong. And making it slightly punishable on block will make Patroklos players use the BE more.
66B+K--> Reduced meter gain by half
1K--> Make it -1 or -2 on hit. It keep in line with other character quick low kicks.
I think Lolo has address it but his grab animation recovers fast, compared to other characters. Patroklos model was base on the Apprentice guest character in SC4. And his whiff grab recovered fast that the rest of the cast. It seem like on over sight when they made Apprentice and when they made Patroklos he inherited that problem.
Cervantes
Cervantes
3B--> This need to be like most character 3B and become more punishable, -13 is not enough it should be at least -16. I've see some people want Cervantes 3B to be launch punishable, but I don't think that the proper way to resolve this. It would be lame to punish their 3B launcher with your own 3B launcher. But IMO it not 3B that main problem but follow up combo with iGDR.
iGDR--> After block every character should get a free back grab, some character cannot because due to push back. So reduced push back on block. With damage of 3B iGDR*3 and CH 1AB iGDR I think the way to fix the damage is make not hit grounded opponent or nerf the damage from 30 to 20
33B-->Decrease damage from 52-40. Side stepping, puts the opponent in FC leaving Cervantes at -3 on block and has clean hit. A damage nerve should be a way to tone it down.
22_88K--> It a move that evades verticals and GI all horizontals and body attack, +6 on hit,KND on counter hit and is -10 on block. That too much stuff for one move to have. This move should be stab punishable on block or remove it ability to GI body attacks. This is really spammable move.
1AB--> This move works similarly to Mitsurugi 2KB, except Cervantes has longer range. Cervantes 1AB should be BB punishable on hit like Mitsurugi 2BK. 1AB on CH the only guaranteed damage should be 3B, and not iGDR and the damage should be capped at 50.
bA- This has already be discusses I agree with what been said.
bK- Make this -2 on block that way if the Cervantes player want to press on the attack they'll have to use moves with TC or stepping properties instead of laming with 2A or A.
Dampierre
Dampierre
His half life combo has to be fixed.
11B,B!E!, 4B does around 125. It build almost half a meter. This move also has 2 Kick which can get clean hit for even more damage.
I think if there is a damage reduction on Dampierre's B!E! and 4B it will address the issue of the combo.
B!E!--> Which is 623 KKKKKKKK. Decrease the damage of the first kick from 16 to 11, and decrease the damage of the second last kick from 11 to 6 and decrease the last kick from 18 to 13. So instead of the total doing 60 it does 45.
4B-->Reduced damage from 42 to 22.
The net effect would be a 35 damage decrease so the combo would do closer to 90. Then Dampierre will have to guess at least more that twice to win a match.
Raph's current problems are a mixture of hitbox/pushback/whiffing issues (not addressed here) and his intended weaknesses being not compensated by his strong points.
I believe that project soul intended Raph to have weaknesses such as the worst stepkillers, low overall damage, and with ambiguous frames on hit. His strengths, therefore should be his speed to range ratio, poking, reverse-mixups and the ability to switch easily from turtling + backpeddling to stance based pressure.
I can't quite slot where Raph fits in regarding his meter usage, guard burst pressure and mid/low+grab mixup, but it seems it is generally lower than average for all the categories. I've assumed that the average overall power level of each other character would ideally get slightly tweaked downwards as well.
The problem is, where do you start isolating Raph's key deficiencies since he seems to in a bit of a mess. Check the spoilers for a longer winded discussion.
In no particular order:
• 1A = i20 low poke that does 10 damage that has some tracking to Raph's right. -4 on NH and CH. -16 on block. Damage buff makes most sense. [10 damage --> 16 damage. Slight increase push-back on close range hits ]
Pretty much sums up all of Raph's problems in this move, taken to an extreme. While I understand project soul's intended weaknesses, it is hard to justify using this move if it is on any other character's movelist.
A 10 damage low poke that is -16 on block, and -4 on CH and NH would have been unreactably fast coupled with reliable step-killing. Dmg buff is probably the best way to improve this chipping low. It may end up as overlapping purposes as a long-ranged 2K with minor tracking, and worse all-around frames. Therefore on hit, the increased range should make 1A more specialized to encourage defensive options on hit, as opposed to 2K where you can get away with 2A, 6BB, wrB. The pushback should justify the -4 on CH, which imo is a number that is fair except for how close it leaves the opponent to you.
• 88B = Once Raph's best poking tool, now it is exposed as being unreliable and mediocre with a simple 1 frame change. It has to realign the victim properly on hit to prevent crumple alignment hitbox issues. I expect about a 46ish damage on a tip hit, while upclose crumple should allow for a A+BA attempt. CE followthrough has been whiffing consistently at certain orientations and distances. [Crumple realignment]
While I would love a reduced freeze-time on this move, especially back to allowing guaranteed i16 followups on hit, a buff would make this move too brain dead strong. I also do not want this move to overlap too much with 33KB/33kBE as they are both mids that will do similar damage. I don't want to undermine the "no discussion of bugs/glitches", but this is a very detrimental feature in raph's 88B that deserves a mention. Currently, you have to know before hand whether to connect with either 11BB, 1B or 66A+B in a sad attempt to try for 44 damage because all 3 are situational and does not always work.
• 4A = Another high move with typical raph numbers. Unsafe on block (-16), negative on both NH and CH (-2), low damage (16 dmg) while being decently speed (i18) with built in TS. While i've accepted the unsafety and negative frames on hit as Raph perks, the pitiful damage is not. This move should have at least +6 damage to push the damage comfortably over 20. [16 damage ---> 22 damage].
I'm not in favour of the SCII inspired crumple CH into A+BA combo (would do about 55ish in the current SC5 if it was possible) because it would function too well as a momentum shifter due to the combo. I believe that the momentum stealing move to beat verticals should actually be prep4 and B+K and not 4A. Likewise, 1K and 22K are already the horizontals that reward a combo on CH. 4A should ideally remain primarily as a decent speed reliable high step killer, with the TS properties of secondary importance.
One thing to consider about a damage buff is that Raph has very little horizontals that can punch through the orange-hp reduction. With a damage buff (to over 20) Raph can take some risks to shut down a cheesy step-based defense when the opponent is lower life.
• SE A = Suffered a large safety reduction after the patch. Coming from Raph's secondary stance there is very little surprise factor and the opponent is less likely to twitch and make a mistake. This move has very little pushback on block (if any). [-6 on block --- > -3 on block].
SE currently is not rewarding considering the effort and risks taken to even enter the stance. SE A changes may not impact Raph as much, because if the opponent was blocking and waiting in response to SE, then SE B would have been the proper choice. However, due to the brain-dead choices of the opponent usually stepping after guarding a prep entry move , SE A is not fast enough to catch a step-guarder, and SE B no longer realigns when Raph is taking his time posing in SE. If i had to choose between giving SE B better re-alignment (making his best move even better) or buffing SE A, i'd choose a SE A buff everytime.
While SE K exists if you want the stepkill, the range of actually landing this move puts you in 2A distance which can is one of the easiest ways to beat SE. Ultimately, a safety change is probably best because SE B already has enormous push-back on block
• SE stance = Needs to have a shorter animation before you can input frames. The amount of time Raph leans back is unnecessarily long. Keep in mind this is because the SE stance is only available after the Prep stance, which really makes it makes it even more obvious when this limited stance is available. [The stance duration before inputs are allowed should be from i19 --- > i15.]
Currently, SE is reactable which means that he it is very possible to CH raph out of this Stance. Its very easy to look for this stance because it is only available after Raph has entered Prep stance, which is poor game design. Same reason why a lot a of mid-high and mid-low strings are so much easier to train to defend against than reacting to just a regular low or high. Intended to be Raph's super stance, he better be able to actually pull the strong moves out.
The SE stance animation needs to be brief enough to not give the opponent enough time to always read and force them to take a gamble at the Prep stance stage if they want to beat SE stance. A reduction in SE stance duration would actually increase the potency of Prep stance CH power.
It is odd that project soul has designed SE stance to be raph's equalizer, but the SE stance animation (and possible entries) are so obvious that it is significantly detrimental to Raphael's ability to apply pressure.
In order to apply pressure (which Raph should be good at) he should be able to force the opponent to take some risk (if they want to turn the momentum around, since stepping is already such a reliable solution against him) if they want to deal with Raphael as opposed to passively guarding and waiting. Being able to force the opponent to take risks and choose the proper counter , should be a core method that Raph can deal damage himself. I don't suggest that the attacks out of SE come out any faster though, because that would shorten the available CH frames for an opponent should they properly gamble for an interrupt.
I'm not sure shaving off 4 frames is enoguh, but it is a start.
• 44B = Typical ultra-linear retreating thrust move, but is currently outshone by other characters' versions, despite being (by design) a poke reliant character. I honestly don't know what to suggest if I had to suggest only 1 key change without being absurd (like suggesting the loveable SC4 44B). In order to encourage the usage of the move by tweaking some aspect of the risk/reward spectrum, i'm going to play it "safe" and suggest a safety change. The safety of this move to increase, so Raph's freeze after executing this move should lower by some frames. [Frames on block -16 to -12. ]
While making moves safer on most characters by even a couple of frames can change a matchup alot, I want to bring up the fact that a lot of the times Raph is beaten is by step induced whiffs, and not by the opponent punishing an unsafe Raph player. I probably don't need to explain why Raph is so vulnerable to step so i'll focus on why a safer retreating thrust would facilitate a better poke-orientated Raph.
Being a character where defense and offense is often ambiguous (both for the opponent and the Raph player) a heavily unsafe defensive move will only be used on obvious reads and safe setups to punish interrupt attempts.
However, "Unsafety" for Raph requires consideration that most of the time the opponent is planning on moving laterally, and you'd be lucky to connect (whether on hit or on block) a non-tracking i32 move. This change would most likely affect when the opponent is dashing forward and guarding or whiffing a move with low recovery animation.
If the opponent is clever and steps this move, then they deserve a reward. If they are just holding guard and playing defensively, they should deserve a minimum reward, especially against one of the most poke reliant characters in the roster.
• B+K = "aGI" active frames are from i10 to i17 which makes this move pretty impossible to use on reaction except for the most telepgraphed moves (that you could have easily QS'd or even counter hit with raph's own 6BBB or CE attempts). Also the move does not always twist the opponent BT due to the nature of the the opponent's recovery animation when they get hit.
In order to be more practical (as opposed to a taunting move due to the extreme rarity of success) move, the active frames needs to be shifted. [Active frames from i10-i17 to i3 to i11, all successful hits should force opponent BT]
This move should replace Raph's 4A as the anti-vertical of choice. This move should be encouraged more, and being a signature move for Raph is not even the main reason.
When considering the nature of a reverse-mixup move that actually doesn't aGI, there are certain risks even when successful. Raph can easily be CH by the 2nd hit. The opponent can also recover in time to block the first hit, and crouch the second hit (being a mid-high string). Thirdly, there is another risk because the attack will not fire if there is no evade and will leave Raph vulnerable as he completes his "taunt". To compensate for these risks, the active frames need to be as early as possible so that B+K can be used on reaction as opposed to "guessing".
Considering all these risks, 38 guaranteed damage (or CE option) with a chance for a BT grab would make this move enticing enough to try if the active frames were actually useable.
Currently, the move is used to beat stuff like Aeon's BBB or ezio's 66BB which have much lower risk solutions. This move would actually serve a purpose to defeat strings that would normally jail against QS with much more risk/reward than something like 214B from Ivy. Lastly, Raphael already has a late aGI (though only for thrusting attacks) in the form of 8A+B.
I would not suggest that Raph always teleport slightly to the left to at least beat basic BBs, but a change like that may have lots of possible hitbox issues. I also do not suggest that Raph gain invulnerabilty/revenge armor frames because that is something that belongs on monster characters. Back turned grab may be reduced to compensate 72 to 69.
• prepK = Contrary to popular belief, step killing isn't what I propose for this move (maybe influenced by a certain someone I keep hearing on chat). Prep k(BE) can have reliable step kill like maxi's LI A (BE) for all I care. Prep K, however is disgustingly weak. -16 on block, 0 on NH, and does 18 damage. There is also no attack on hit from prep that allows you out of prep for positive frames. Combine that with the fact that it is the only mid from Prep means that i21 is pretty darn slow if you want to keep opponents honest. [damage 18 ---> 23. Frames on hit from 0 ---> +3]
I want to lay it out that not all moves from a stance should be that great. However, if you run down the list of moves in Prep, they're all kinda "meh". I understand that Prep attacks are - by design - used to apply pressure to allow you to enter SE but I don't understand why some of them have to be terrible.
Increased damage on prep K means that 1) you won't affected by orange-bar reduction 2) Prep 4 (both whiff punish and successful aGI) will get buffed if you have no meter and do not want to get stuck in prep, as prepK may be guaranteed against someone whiffing a 2A or other move where they end up crouched. (where you can't do a prepAB, prepBB, prepA+B is punishable and SE is reactable). Getting stuck in prep is a terrible thing for Raph, and currently trying to get out of it is a chore due to the high risk, low reward choices.
Increased frames on hit is more of a frame-respect issue, as a i20 move would that does not swing momentum on hit is rather terrible. This is especially true in consideration after a prep4 aGI, where after you deal your kick, you are not even granted any non-prep based offensive momentum. +3 is slightly arbitrary, considering the pushback on prep K does not really allow Raph any sort of mixup and kicks them out to a range where he cannot contain lateral step movement.
While I would like a faster Prep K to allow Raph to defeat TCing mid non-vertical weapon attacks, it is lower priority than the other prepK buffs. While this pool of anti-prep moves is low, the most obvious one I can think of is bullrush.
An easier choice would be to make Prep K safe on block (while keeping the even frames on hit), but imo that would make Raph too boring to play against.
Lastly, since prepK BE is not hit confirmable, having a metered gamble for 100% step kill into 70 damage sounds like a pretty reasonable reward for a move that is highly punishable on block (since the 2nd hit is high).
• 2_8B+K = right now this functions strictly as a specific combo starters after special circumstances and is highly risky. [Raph physically realigns only if the opponent QS/8WR in the same direction. Combo damage lowered to compensate]
I would like Raph to physically re-align with opponents that are stepping in the correct side when executing this move. This means you do not require the opponent to be in under 2A range and "hope" they run into your sword (which is a pretty lame way to play).
The trade off is that the realignment only occurs if the opponent is in QS or 8WR movement (so that the move will obviously not hit someone directly standing in front of Raph). Secondly, the combo damage on CH will have to drop slightly, so maybe only A+BA is guaranteed leading to 60ish damage.) The move will still have the same weaknesses, such as when the opponent does anything but step to that one side (like standing still, back dashing, stepping the other side).
Why give Raph such a goofy step killer? Figured this move really needs some love after being unsuccessfully attempted for 3 versions. Would like to see a really risky step kill from Raph that is even side-specific. This move just feels so underdeveloped and yet project soul decided to give 2_8B+K clean hit properties. It does not have any forward angle (sticking at a straight 90 degree to Raph's right or left) which means that you have to take a deep step while being at close range to Raph (like 2A).
Undeniably an unusable move outside of certain combo setups or if you have pressed the opponent against a wall/edge. Right now, its combo only for 80 damage. I'm proposing it be used for a hail mary step kill, for 60 damage.
Certain things like 3B (not 3(B)) going from 18 damage -- > 21 damage, increased range on prepA and 6A, and increased range on the first hit of 8A+B are so far not suggested by any other person that frequent the Raph SAs so I have left that out for the sake of brevity.
Just want to mention that the 66A+G guage meter problem has been fixed as of 1.02, but im going to shamelessly point out the obvious realignment issue with 88_22B on hit, the 4(B) pushout that prevents prepBBB combos, 2nd hit whiffs of 33KB, AA due to improper pushout, or the 3rd hit of A+BA not re-aligning. 3A on CH pushes the opponent too far for Raph's i16 moves to connect sometimes, which makes it frustrating because sometimes they'll connect and sometimes they'll whiff, so the pushback on CH 3A should be reduced slightly and more consistency.
Anything I said unreasonable or outrageous, feel free to call me out. Hopefully I've maintained a sense of pragmatism without suggesting warps to SC5 Raph too much.
I agree with ShenYuan about not changing Omega, she isn't well rounded. Nerfing her DNS b maybe is a little too much, if I can suggest a little nerf, just nerf the damage of CE by 10 points and DNS B:4 by 10.
I also think that Nm don't deserve so much nerf, he is a really slow character, have really bad punition and his mid are unsafe ( exept 22b, 66b and 44a that are so slow ). Now he have a lot of bad matchup ( vs Asta, Natsu, Greeks, Algol ). I think now is ok.
At the very beginning, this post was there to balance the game right ?
So many people put their "request", how do you decide which one to keep ?
I think that most people agrre with:
Algol, Mitsurugi, Viola, Alpha, Cervantes, all of them need nerf.
Ezio, Raphael, Leixia, all of them need buff.
But other characters ? Astaroth ? Yoshimitsu ? Pyrrha ? Xiba ? Aeon ?
Belial, how do you judge everyone arguments ?
I mean, all I need to do is say some word about waht I want and if noone counter my point that's it ?
Elysium CE should be i16 cause Hilde's A+G BE to CE is a combo while it is not with Elysium. So A+G BE is usefull only to RO but CE do not connect as it should. That's why I think Elysium CE should be i16.
Is this enough to accept my request ?
Yeah I'm pleased I'm not the one having to filter through all these requests.
My final thoughts:
There are way too many adjustments here. A lot of them seem pointless to me.
Tira 3K -> +0 on hit... why?
Nightmare 22B should be same as Sieg 66B... why?
Ω Pyrrha's CE should be 80 damage... why?
I think Maxou mentioned somewhere that generic 2K/1K should be -4 on hit (like in SCIV) and not -2. I understand and agree with the idea behind this. I will say however that this would be a serious nerf for Leixia.
About Ω Pyrrha's CE... it is steppable and very unsafe. At 80 damage it would hardly do any more than Leixia's or Raph's. Bear in mind that Ivy has 100 dmg unreactable, unbreakable throw, and Yoshi has antistep / interrupt / post-GI CE for 110 damage (more on CH). Also Ω Pyrrha's BE attacks are less useful than most.
About Leixia's buffs, any feedback on the suggestions posted by Kalas would be appreciated. It is difficult sometimes to judge the correct adjustments to your own character without external input.
Finally, as Belial said, Project Soul will most likely adjust the game as they see fit. If they are to listen to these suggestions at all, and / or patch the game again, they will still make their own decisions regarding the changes to properties and data. So imo it would be better to list only the really annoying / frustrating things (moves and/or characters that are too strong or too weak) and understand that any actual changes may vary greatly from what we suggest.
In other words, I think a small list of "this character is too strong because these attacks are too useful in these situations" is more likely to get looked at than a huge list of "move Q: damage-> x, frames ->y".
Natsu's 66B needs 50% damage nerf, and needs FAR less push back.
it's basicly safe against 70% of the cast and does 1/4 of a bar.
you can actually win with that move alone and throws.
48 damage (38 if you do the transition to PO) is not 60 damage for 1/4 life. yes it has a chance to clean hit but that doesnt happen enough to be a factor. i doubt the 70% of the cast cannot punish it is accurate either, sure it may not be the big damage punish you wish it was but its punishable nonetheless.
i'd be ok if it got bumped down to 39-43 damage or lost its pushback on block or bigger - frames but same pushback. but the wrong combination of 2 out of those 3 changes would be pretty bad . also take into account revenge moves and NMs A+B. she has so few moves that go above the minimum damage threshold for these moves that 66B is already one of her only options against them.
i'd also like to say that natsu may have the worst throw range in the game so running a solid throw mixup is pretty hard as she needs to be right on top of you. her + frames on hit are actually pretty weak naturally because of the speed of tools like her AA and A:6. she doesnt need big + frames to run these as frame traps but any significant advantage of +5 or more and that leaves you in range to throw is hard to find. break B and dont block low, if you eat 7 A throws before you can out damage her in that particular round you probably deserve to lose.
iGDR, which can't be buffered and carries with it a massive risk of punishment on failure. If we're completely factoring out things like degree of difficulty, why isn't this thread awash in people demanding massive nerfs for almost everything in aPat's arsenal? Be pragmatic, or at least be consistent.
I'd like to see Maxou's reasoning behind Pyrrha's 66A change because she doesn't have many options to safely close in on an opponent beyond 66A.
If the pros could back me up, Pyrrha should be arrested for 3B, either by "keep distance on block" or easing on guard break properties (takes 8 to break, should be 10 or more).
Cervantes
1AB. It's - on hit. It stop momentum on both sides. If it lands the opponent now has the opportunity to press the attack. What other low does he have that's worth anything? Plus its standing launch punishable on block. Block it and he dies. Ab is the kinda the same. And making Ab launch punishable? Does any other character get launched for
a BB or something similar? Tone down the damage on his stuff, fine. But don't make him the unsafest character in the game. 4B(BE). The move is fine. His other BEs are trashy and CE is just ok. He uses meter on 4B(BE). It's his mix up. Why shouldn't he get a mix up after? And you can step the BT B+K. Astraroth has a ton of free grab attempts, Cervy can have one, that costs meter.
Lol at some of your Cervantes nerfs, seriously. 22K is what? 25 Damage? Backstep and punish with whatever you want if its a problem...this thread was about fixing the really important stuff, not about nerfing i400 moves with 25 damage. Same for bA...what is the problem with bA?
bK has always been a blockstun, it was already nerfed last patch, since it doesnt break guard anymore. I dont get how out of nothing this move becomes a problem. Its not super fast, nor does it track too much. I never heard any top player complain about this move.
Plus Cervantes has NO TC game at all. Nothing. When you ask Cervantes players to use TC Moves instead of "lame" AA it just shows that you dont really understand how Cervantes plays. He has not one single TC move anymore. b2, thats it. Maybe you can name me one, i really would need a TC move from time to time.
The nerfs people ask will make Cervantes retarded against certain characters, it will not help balance at all. Cervantes is high risk, high reward on basically anything. He has a few tools that save him in Matchups where characters have strong i12-i14 punishers, namely 1BB and 3B. Nerfing 3B the way proposed means that ANY offensive tool against e.g Alpha will mean 70-110 punishment. It will give Pyrrha and Omega sick Damage. Those are already his 3 hardest matchups.
Cervantes is one of the most unsafe characters in the game, he cant be balanced at all by making him even more unsafe. He needs damage nerfs, a reasonable nerf of 1AB and aB and thats it. Making his few safe tools to be more unsafe...wtf seriously.
Thread is becoming more and more a personal wishlist of people who cant deal with moves, instead of reasonable changes.
Leixia - Only posting for her so far. Should be posting more later, for Tira and maybe Natsu.
Since there was a good list already posted on her, let me address only a few things about her, and my preference. Because I believe the rest of the things that may to be addressed already have been.
WS B/ WS B BE - Restore 1.01 Vertical Evasiveness. Fix occasional whiffing issues while dodging. Refer to reasoning spoiler for full explanation.
~ WS B:
Reduce Block Freeze (-18 -> -16): This move should NOT be launcher punishable. Rugi 4B isn't, and these evasion moves I believe are in the same class, and 4B is even safer. (-12)
~ WS B BE
Increase Guard Burst Damage (12 -> 10): This move originally broke in 7, 10 is fair.
Increase (While not dodging) damage so WS B BE -> B+K -> 3B: (58 -> 70)
Decrease (While Dodging) damage so WS B BE -> B+K -> 3B: (76 -> 70), Add stun animation.
* Note: The stun animation on WR B BE being added is actually a nerf, as it scales the damage down for the combo to prevent WR B BE -> B+K -> CE from being a viable combo (as it now does 83 damage vs 70 from a normal) in most situations.
3B+K(K)- Maintain distance on block, reduce Block Freeze for performing first hit - 3B+K. (-11 -> -10), Make NC on hit. (Do not allow tech roll opportunity): This gives Leixia a decent (54 dmg) whiff punishing move, and adds the ability to actually use the second hit instead of getting stepped and launched. The -11 to -10 is to compensate for the push-back nerf on block.
I would like to also agree with the changes proposed by Kalas, and add these to the list.
1. Increased damage on 3B (20 ---> 24/25/26) 2. Increased damage on 22B (24 ---> 28) 3. Increased damage on FC3B (26 ---> 30) 5. Increased damage on B+G (45 ---> 50) 6. Increased damage on 66AA (26 ---> 30) 7. Increased damage on 44B (26 ---> 30) 8. Increased hitstun on 22K (+0 ---> +3/4/5)
10. Reduce pushback of CE on hit, so 2K/3B becomes a mixup on everyone 14. Increased launch height on 6A+B (so 6A+B 3B/66K/CE is NH) 15. Maintain distance of 6KK on hit 16. Remove stun-animation for CH 44B
As many people know, there are different properties for WR B BE while dodging, and while not dodging. The current damage for WS B BE -> B+K -> CE is 75 damage. For all intents and purposes, that is unbelievably low in terms of characters, using 75% meter in a 75 damage combo. While Dodging WR BE does 103 Damage. So here's my suggestion:
WS B BE -> B+K -> 66K/3B: 70 Damage (Between 4B -> CE and 1.03 damage. 10 less than 1.01) WS B BE -> B+K -> CE: 83 damage (Stun negates usefulness, but allows for just enough to kill chip damage situations when you have a lot of meter. Also discourages this combo. Same damage as 1.01 WR B BE -> B+K -> 3B.)
Now, the second option is actually a nerf in terms of damage the CE does after WR B BE, but a buff in non dodging WS B BE, to make it consistent. The guard burst damage increase is because to be completely honest Leixia's current burst damage is no where near 1.02 levels, and to get to even 1/2 those levels, you must be overly-aggressive. 1.01 it was 7. 1.02 made it into 12. I believe it should go to 10, which is near the middle, and it still should NOT guard break.
I think this would be a good, simple way, to help Leixia be a little closer to balanced. I'd also like to incorporate the fixes mentioned by Kalas, and come to a balance between our fixes that would allow her to be at the best position for balance possible.
I agree with docvizzo and malek: A lot of people are missing what this thread was aiming at. Which is sad.
Instead of taking care of stupid stuff that most people have already agreed on (like nerf to Mitsus 4B, Patroklos 66B or Alphas Twister damage or buffs to Raphael and Leixia for more damage), it's getting more and more subjective.
