MammothMan
WR B, NSS A+B, GS KK, W!, 4KK, 33B, GSB
SSF4 seems more like golf to me, boring as hell to watch and boring as shit to play.
Best Fighting Game Except Soul Calibur
- Thread starter sheppard
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Dullyanna
[10] Knight
Out of all the "new" FGs that you have a reasonable chance to play in the US, AH3 is the best imho. MvC3 is surprisingly good, given what it possibly could've ended up like (TvC). Out of all the "good" KoF games, I think 2k2UM is the best, though it doesn't matter because what little potential scene the game has is split across every decent one that's been released (And KoF13 lol). MBAA was also very solid, it's a shame that AH3 + no real access to MBCC here has killed it.
I don't agree with Lobo's comments on 2D games, but as far as T6 goes he's right on. He has far more exp with that series than almost everybody on this site, including everybody who has posted in this thread, so I'd listen to him over most others lol
I don't agree with Lobo's comments on 2D games, but as far as T6 goes he's right on. He has far more exp with that series than almost everybody on this site, including everybody who has posted in this thread, so I'd listen to him over most others lol
KingAce
HERMITISM
If you're all about this series, you're doing a poor job explaining why or how it works. I watched a ton of videos for SF4AE, and I have continued to watch many SSF4 and AE videos. The question I had was after you overcome SF's barrier of entry which is the hard combos, what are the mechanics players use to overcome theirs opponents?
Don't talk about zoning because that's obvious.
Is it all about cross ups?(which I am guessing is kinda like a mixup) How do throws land exactly?
I know that Crouch block takes care of pretty much anything minus overheads. I know about anti airs, and such.
Really the biggest question I have is how do players break through their opponents defense?
And also what is the depth of the SF engine?
Dullyanna
[10] Knight
Here's a hint: You can't break throws in 2D games by looking at the other character's hands. If you're saying that crouch tech is invincible, it isn't considering that it requires tighter timing and loses to divekicks and properly done frame traps. Also don't say "SF engine," because the differences between the separate series is huge (Even disregarding within the series themselves). Saying that is about as fair as saying "3D FG engine."
franman
[13] Hero
Very interesting observation there lobo and Lost Providence.
ArcticKomodo
[11] Champion
LP
Premium Member
"Don't talk about zoning because that's obvious.
Is it all about cross ups?(which I am guessing is kinda like a mixup) How do throws land exactly?
I know that Crouch block takes care of pretty much anything minus overheads. I know about anti airs, and such.
Really the biggest question I have is how do players break through their opponents defense?
And also what is the depth of the SF engine?"
That's a pretty ambiguous question, but I'll try to hit it.
In my honest opinion, SF4 has the fundamentals of most 2D fighting games, along with tight links, liberal use of invincibility frames (and easy reversals, but that's a story for another day), focus attacks and EX attacks, FADC, and delayable wake-up for its 'depth'.
Think of it in terms of a bunch of Amy's running about
Answering your specific questions:
It's not so much about any one thing (like any fighting game), but about exploiting either character or player flaws. Once you get into the game, most of the cross-ups viability is severely diminished due to how much they telegraph themselves. The ones that are left are the ones where, at the same distance and/or height, you can use an attack other than the one known to be effective in such a situation that your opponent has to block in the opposite direction due to hitbox altering and the ones where, because of jump-arch or positioning (such as Abel's roll), it's rather hard to tell which way you'll be facing on wakeup.
With crouch teching, which is dumb as hell to me, there are a couple of things to it, which mostly come from...baiting a crouch tech... If you space correctly, you can actually put your opponent into a situation where you can attempt to throw them or simply cause them to whiff their crouch tech (they have more options, but this is more of a tunnel visiony type thing), giving you the ability to punish their whiff with your footsies or causing them to be even more defensive somehow and reacting accordingly. Other than that, you can also attempt to bait the crouch tech and do a fast or meaty attack (attack whose active frames cause it to be into your opponent's hitbox on wakeup), which will, if done correctly, punish the crouch tech (if you look at any one of Valle's video's, which is what he's doing when he does his crouching strong, usually). A much less used technique (though Daigo used to use it a lot with Ex. Shoryuken, FADC Ultra) is to bait the crouch tech but do some type of attack with fast start-up and invincibility (there are thousands in SF4...). This isn't used to much because, if you time your crouch tech correctly, you can cover both options half of the time.
With all of that being said, crouch teching and overly defensive play are two of the reasons dive kicks are so deadly in that game. Except in games like Tekken, BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, and now MvC3), throw/some attack has almost always been your biggest mixup (as in it gets your opponent to do something other than block or risk the consequences of continuing to throw). With crouch teching, are you able to to be completely defensive and, in some cases, even punishing your opponent for being silly enough to think they could try to get some oki. Welcome to dive-kick rape. Dive-kicks are unique in this game because they do what we, in SC world, would call tech jump (making them impervious to both lows and throws). So, if you attempt to crouch tech an opponent who does a well placed dive-kick, you get punished by that followed by whatever. On wake up, you can time your dive-kick so that it will be in your opponent's hitbox when they get up and/or give you time to block (or cause their attack to whiff) should they choose to do generic invincibility frame attack whatever. Simply put, dive kicks in Sf4 are one of the only effective ways to generate some type of offensive pressure while also making your opponent play an actual defensive game rather than simply holding db and wait for their turn to attack (and part of the reason why many people get raped by them).
As for depth in it, think of at as spacing (your zoning , 'footsies', and, sometimes, bad matchups) and a clashing of Amy's when close-combat takes place, with something with invincibility frames being your B+K.
SF4 is decent as it present the basics of most 2d fighters, but, in my opinion, is boring as hell and goes to show that relatively balanced =/= fun. Basically, it's a game that anybody looking to get into fighters can pick up and, at one level or another, understand, and take try to take their game to the next level while also retaining enough depth that a person decent at fighting games can be ahead of the power curve. Still, in my opinion, the game is so gimmicky and defensive that I don't really see how anybody could enjoy it for so long without regards to the nostalgia or community (hell, I'd even try to get into it again if they put Karin in it, made Sakura more fun, or if I started enjoying Ibuki again...or if they didn't shit on Cammy).
But, then again, this is coming from someone who likes BBCS, so yeah.
Is it all about cross ups?(which I am guessing is kinda like a mixup) How do throws land exactly?
I know that Crouch block takes care of pretty much anything minus overheads. I know about anti airs, and such.
Really the biggest question I have is how do players break through their opponents defense?
And also what is the depth of the SF engine?"
That's a pretty ambiguous question, but I'll try to hit it.
In my honest opinion, SF4 has the fundamentals of most 2D fighting games, along with tight links, liberal use of invincibility frames (and easy reversals, but that's a story for another day), focus attacks and EX attacks, FADC, and delayable wake-up for its 'depth'.
Think of it in terms of a bunch of Amy's running about
Answering your specific questions:
It's not so much about any one thing (like any fighting game), but about exploiting either character or player flaws. Once you get into the game, most of the cross-ups viability is severely diminished due to how much they telegraph themselves. The ones that are left are the ones where, at the same distance and/or height, you can use an attack other than the one known to be effective in such a situation that your opponent has to block in the opposite direction due to hitbox altering and the ones where, because of jump-arch or positioning (such as Abel's roll), it's rather hard to tell which way you'll be facing on wakeup.
With crouch teching, which is dumb as hell to me, there are a couple of things to it, which mostly come from...baiting a crouch tech... If you space correctly, you can actually put your opponent into a situation where you can attempt to throw them or simply cause them to whiff their crouch tech (they have more options, but this is more of a tunnel visiony type thing), giving you the ability to punish their whiff with your footsies or causing them to be even more defensive somehow and reacting accordingly. Other than that, you can also attempt to bait the crouch tech and do a fast or meaty attack (attack whose active frames cause it to be into your opponent's hitbox on wakeup), which will, if done correctly, punish the crouch tech (if you look at any one of Valle's video's, which is what he's doing when he does his crouching strong, usually). A much less used technique (though Daigo used to use it a lot with Ex. Shoryuken, FADC Ultra) is to bait the crouch tech but do some type of attack with fast start-up and invincibility (there are thousands in SF4...). This isn't used to much because, if you time your crouch tech correctly, you can cover both options half of the time.
With all of that being said, crouch teching and overly defensive play are two of the reasons dive kicks are so deadly in that game. Except in games like Tekken, BlazBlue, Guilty Gear, and now MvC3), throw/some attack has almost always been your biggest mixup (as in it gets your opponent to do something other than block or risk the consequences of continuing to throw). With crouch teching, are you able to to be completely defensive and, in some cases, even punishing your opponent for being silly enough to think they could try to get some oki. Welcome to dive-kick rape. Dive-kicks are unique in this game because they do what we, in SC world, would call tech jump (making them impervious to both lows and throws). So, if you attempt to crouch tech an opponent who does a well placed dive-kick, you get punished by that followed by whatever. On wake up, you can time your dive-kick so that it will be in your opponent's hitbox when they get up and/or give you time to block (or cause their attack to whiff) should they choose to do generic invincibility frame attack whatever. Simply put, dive kicks in Sf4 are one of the only effective ways to generate some type of offensive pressure while also making your opponent play an actual defensive game rather than simply holding db and wait for their turn to attack (and part of the reason why many people get raped by them).
As for depth in it, think of at as spacing (your zoning , 'footsies', and, sometimes, bad matchups) and a clashing of Amy's when close-combat takes place, with something with invincibility frames being your B+K.
SF4 is decent as it present the basics of most 2d fighters, but, in my opinion, is boring as hell and goes to show that relatively balanced =/= fun. Basically, it's a game that anybody looking to get into fighters can pick up and, at one level or another, understand, and take try to take their game to the next level while also retaining enough depth that a person decent at fighting games can be ahead of the power curve. Still, in my opinion, the game is so gimmicky and defensive that I don't really see how anybody could enjoy it for so long without regards to the nostalgia or community (hell, I'd even try to get into it again if they put Karin in it, made Sakura more fun, or if I started enjoying Ibuki again...or if they didn't shit on Cammy).
But, then again, this is coming from someone who likes BBCS, so yeah.
D.I.N.O
[11] Champion
Whoa at paragraphs....
Arctic Komodo knows wassup...
Another Great fighter
PROJECT JUSITCE ie RIVAL SCHOOLS 3!!!
This IS the quintessential 2-d meets 3-d meets super jump fighter. Everything you've wished for in a Fighter is here (minus Tag, but you can switch between rounds)
Arctic Komodo knows wassup...
Another Great fighter
PROJECT JUSITCE ie RIVAL SCHOOLS 3!!!
This IS the quintessential 2-d meets 3-d meets super jump fighter. Everything you've wished for in a Fighter is here (minus Tag, but you can switch between rounds)
Xeph
#TRYHARD
Guilty Gear X2
AC was okay.
AC was okay.
page
[11] Champion
Power Stone > Power Stone 2, as a fighting game.
Sxton_Hrdcastle
[09] Warrior
Virtua Fighter 5 without question. That game is all kinds of awesome and it's coolness is only second to its kickassness in my opinion. Except Dural she is pure BS on all levels of gaming lol. I used to main Kage, however I have switched over to Goh Hinogami.
KingAce
HERMITISM
I appreciate the response LP, definitely learned something from it. Now I get why people bitched about rufus, and now yun and yang.
So since some of you are passionate about this game which I fail to get.
What's the story on virtua fighter really? Only reason I got into in tekken was because I finally stopped being ignorant and educated myself about the game, which made me appreciate it.
I really don't like the look of vitua fighter, but I knowledge brings new prospectives. So can anyone enlight me?
lobo
Luminario
rofl project justice was soooooooo bad.
how about fighting vipers?!?!?!?!?!?
and since this is a calibur site, how about a shoutout to the game that namco shamelessly ripped the entire calibur cast and moves list from?
how about fighting vipers?!?!?!?!?!?
and since this is a calibur site, how about a shoutout to the game that namco shamelessly ripped the entire calibur cast and moves list from?
Sora
[11] Champion
Couldn't you just use different characters when playing your friends?
In SC4, my level on Ivy is completely on its own than with any other character - I'm scrubby with Kilik. :p
Dullyanna
[10] Knight
Basically, VF4-5 is extremely well designed, and ended up pretty much exactly as the developers had intended. There are solid and consistent defensive option selects in place to help against what would otherwise be heavily stacked throw/mid mixups, but there are also clear and intuitive counters to those to keep the offensive advantage strong. Characters have their own individuality in terms of gameplay, but the tiers are tighter than the vast majority of FGs. Once you understand the inner workings of the game, then watching matches of it is 100 times more enjoyable. There's a lot to explain though, so if you really want to learn more, buy the game (It's bloody cheap) and look around virtuafighter.com
"Skill is of utmost importance in Virtua Fighter. There is not a lot of luck involved and the best player always wins. It is a very technical game where if you’re strong, you will win" - Gamerbee
Alstein
[09] Warrior
I felt VF overrelied on option selects, but it's beatable at least. The overreliance caused some folks to prefer VF4 to VF5, where the option selects were used in a much narrower set of circumstances.
Y-Disciple
[09] Warrior
The thing about VF, as good as the game is, is that it has virtually no community in North America. Like, I recall the NEC VF5 tourney signup sheet had seven people signed up when I left, as opposed to the 76 that signed up for Tekken, and I don't know how many of them were serious/experienced players. If you want to learn it on your own, I say go ahead, it's a good, albeit hard game to learn, (I tried learning it myself for a while) but if you want people to actually play against, best go for something else.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
Virtua Fighter is also hard to get into because the atmosphere and characters suck. It's just a bunch of random, generic characters fighting in random places.
KingAce
HERMITISM
In regards to VF.
Trust me I have tried watching the game just for the entertainment value, and got nothing.
Do they use motion capture for that game or not? The hits lack impact, and the character models are odd to me.
Dullyana
Was VF5 release for the PS3? Otherwise, I would own it by now.
Trust me I have tried watching the game just for the entertainment value, and got nothing.
Do they use motion capture for that game or not? The hits lack impact, and the character models are odd to me.
Dullyana
Was VF5 release for the PS3? Otherwise, I would own it by now.
franman
[13] Hero
I watched some VF5 FS vids and they're not boring at all to me.
Seriously I look forward to playing this game once SEGA decides to release Final Showdown the latest version on consoles.
Seriously I look forward to playing this game once SEGA decides to release Final Showdown the latest version on consoles.