Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about Matchups

[Greven]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

i think he mean GS A. It beats every move except prep~SEA~SEB moves and maybe prep A+B because of the TC properties.

Pretty good i d say.

 

[Tiamat]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

Ah just throw out GS A? It may work decently well but I think you'd have to use it sparingly. doing it too early may result in eating a 4B for a lot of damage, and if he just blocks GS A he can get BB for decent damage...maybe even get 3 prep BB

iirc if you try to GS A from blocking raph 3 and he does prep A you eat CH.

 

[Belial]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

Tiamat: If you go into GS after blocking a move that enters prep and delay A a little it will beat out almost everything I think. I've never tested it in practice but ingame I think I've hit prep A, prep BB, VE and even SEA with it.

 

[Greven]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

iirc if you try to GS A from blocking raph 3 and he does prep A you eat CH.

WRONG!

prep A is i13, best transition to prep is +0

GS A autoGi is i13-i22
means u can always get Perfect Gi ou Gi when raph goes to prep A

Thats why i like GS A vs raph, it beats every move except those with TC (prep A+B and prep~SEA~SEB)

 

[WuHT]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

WRONG!

prep A is i13, best transition to prep is +0

GS A autoGi is i13-i22
means u can always get Perfect Gi ou Gi when raph goes to prep A

Thats why i like GS A vs raph, it beats every move except those with TC (prep A+B and prep~SEA~SEB)

to be technical, best transisition to prep is +2, but thats if he's already in SEA.

Does prepA hilt-elbow count as a horizontal or a vertical..or something else ?
...

The thing is that if the elbow DOES give you trouble, NM can always use B+K~NSS punish if he predicts correctly, since it might be worth eating a few prepBB from raph or even if he doesnt' enter prep, but the payoff is something to think about.

Also, you do not want to get predictable with highs, as raph has a really strong and reliable TC punish in his 4B.

 

[Tiamat]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

WRONG!

prep A is i13, best transition to prep is +0

GS A autoGi is i13-i22
means u can always get Perfect Gi ou Gi when raph goes to prep A

Thats why i like GS A vs raph, it beats every move except those with TC (prep A+B and prep~SEA~SEB)

I think YOU are WRONG. I have tried this on several occasions and I just turned on the game yet again to try it and have not gotten it even once. I'm trying at different ranges and everything, no go. frame data wise it looks like it would work but it doesn't

it will JI his prep B but not prep A

this is how GS A works vs prep
GS A > prep B (from blocked sea B you TC instead of JI it), SEA B, VE
prep A, SEA A, prep block > GS A

LAU:
NM must use 88AB (1P side) or 22AB (2P side) to evade. if he does prep A the 88A will whiff punish him. if he does SEA you will CH him.

Raph countermeasures (all using 3 blocked):
if he does prep > block he can guard it.
SEA A will evade and punish 88A

I do like that 88A beats his two best options though (prep A and sea B), so I think it is a good find

 

[Greven]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

I think YOU are WRONG. I have tried this on several occasions and I just turned on the game yet again to try it and have not gotten it even once. I'm trying at different ranges and everything, no go. frame data wise it looks like it would work but it doesn't

Tried it in training and it worked, JI everytime. Anyone else can test it?

Tips: buffering is the key, but thats nothing new

 

[WuHT]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

Tried it in training and it worked, JI everytime. Anyone else can test it?

Tips: buffering is the key, but thats nothing new

if it doesn't work ..try 4~prepA from raph..which is 1 frame slower

 

[Tiamat]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

I got the JI on the 4 > prep A but not 3 > prep A. As I said before, I've tried this on numerous occasions and have never gotten it to work even once. I find it hard to believe I'm just making input errors. Other NM players should try it and see if they can pull it off

 

[stardustwla]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

NM GSA auto-GI start at i14
It can tested by 4KK(on block -4) > GSA. Just GI Mitsurugi's 3B......
Raphael 3 > prep A = i13 and SEA > prep A = i11 , it can proved by trade hit with mina's K and Amy's 6B.

I think the reason of GSA JI raphael's 3 > prep A is the 3 comes at tip range or prep A input is 1 frame slower......Raphael's prep can have a very very little bit delay......

 

[LAU]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

FYI for any of you guys care....

stardustwla = Sing from HK vids...

and I can say... I trust his data more than most players here...

especially when I JUST played him Raph (me) vs him (NM) this past weekend.

-LAU

 

[Tiamat]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

Hey Sing!! =D

 

[LAU]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

I think YOU are WRONG. I have tried this on several occasions and I just turned on the game yet again to try it and have not gotten it even once. I'm trying at different ranges and everything, no go. frame data wise it looks like it would work but it doesn't

it will JI his prep B but not prep A

this is how GS A works vs prep
GS A > prep B (from blocked sea B you TC instead of JI it), SEA B, VE
prep A, SEA A, prep block > GS A

LAU:
NM must use 88AB (1P side) or 22AB (2P side) to evade. if he does prep A the 88A will whiff punish him. if he does SEA you will CH him.

Raph countermeasures (all using 3 blocked):
if he does prep > block he can guard it.
SEA A will evade and punish 88A

I do like that 88A beats his two best options though (prep A and sea B), so I think it is a good find

thing is

88AB is good because... it beats out VE as well.. and i think it might even beat out prep B... and as for SEA A i think 88AB the B part might hit NM...

anyways i need to test more on this... i just remember Sing (stardustwla) was doing this on me.. and i was confused what it beat out and what beat it.. regardless it's definitely a good option to consider

i just wanna restate 88AB have a special property.. although it's NCC.. if the first hit HITS.. and the second hit is blocked.. it's still 'safe'.. (which is weird)... but if both hits are blocked.. you're looking at major disadvantage

-LAU

 

[Tiamat]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

lau:
thats true it probably beats prep B and would certainly beat VE as well. SEA A will dodge hte A and hit the B so thats probably his best counter

also, I remembered what you said about 88AB being much safer if first hit is normal hit than if both hits are blocked so I checked it out. The reason seems to be because 88A hit pushes back a ton more than 88A on block.

 

[stardustwla]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

NM must use 88AB (1P side) or 22AB (2P side) to evade. if he does prep A the 88A will whiff punish him. if he does SEA you will CH him.

No NM at 1P should do 22AB and 2P should do 88AB.
You can test it, I keep this secret for NM player HAHAHAHA~~~~

 

[LAU]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

lau:
thats true it probably beats prep B and would certainly beat VE as well. SEA A will dodge hte A and hit the B so thats probably his best counter

also, I remembered what you said about 88AB being much safer if first hit is normal hit than if both hits are blocked so I checked it out. The reason seems to be because 88A hit pushes back a ton more than 88A on block.

hm.. so you're saying the B part is safe is really a range issue... interesting


-LAU

 

[LGInfinite]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

Guys, any thoughts on Ivy vs NM? Setting aside my poor execution during the matches, I felt that this was a pretty tough one for NM. It feels like that Ivy has the ability to not only fight NM at long range, but also at close range too. Even at mid range, it felt a little like NM wasn't able to get any real traction in terms of mix ups.

 

[LAU]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

LG:

Davo giving you some probs? ;)

anyways.. the way I see Ivy is that she's got the ability to fight long or short range really depends on her stance... short range = sword is more powerful.... long = whip is more powerful.. but if you kinda go opposite of her stances it kinda puts her at pressure.... if she's in sword mode it's nearly impossible to fight against your long range NM..... while in whip close range is a bit tougher for her

another thing is she seems to be weak against NSS stance especially NSS [A] pressure (mixed with NSS/GS options)

keep in mind at the beginning of the round.. if Ivy likes to take advantage of button bind start ... nothing can be iagA in terms of speed.... and the move that does beat it... there's ways that you can easily beat that back

-LAU

 

[LGInfinite]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

Lau: Davo has improved a lot since he went to HK, especially in his anti-Nightmare strategy. He no longer freezes up in front of GS mix ups and has learned how to deal with iagA and NSS mix ups as well. LOL. I explained a lot about NM to him, so now I have to improve as well. Either that or get him to explain Ivy to me. LOL.

One of the problems I'm having is that once Ivy is in whip is difficult for NM to close in. Most of her whip moves have very strong push back and deal decent SG damage as well. For example, using whip 3A, she can cover step and NM cannot consistently punish it. Ivy also has strong step, so she can step most of NM's long range moves other than iagA, and step guarding can protect against that.

When I played him with Sieg I had far less difficulty, because at mid-range Sieg can chip and poke safely and force an opening using things like a+ka:2A and b6. At mid range, NM doesn't really have any lows other than 1A but Ivy has the tools to deal with 1A mix ups. Even better, Sieg has 3A, which is a mid horizontal that can't really be easily punished and does strong damage.

I'll look at NSS again, but Davo seems to have some answers. It was just a bit aggravating because my execution was so poor during the match, so I felt like I let myself down in that respect.

I'll probably have a chance to try this match up again in the next few days and I'll see if I can either get a more detailed description or put vids up.

I don't suppose you have any vids of your NM against a strong Ivy?

 

[LAU]

Character Matchup Discussion & Questions about

LG:

it's a good thing that Davo has improved a lot especially against NM. Because this is what it's all about one player improves and forces the other player to improve as well...

as for vids against Ivy...

I don't think I have any except ones against Davo. (not sure if CF put those on youtube however)

HK doesn't have a strong Ivy player... our strongest Ivy is CF.. unfortunately.. and usually my matches against him ends up not recorded. And his Ivy is only mediocre at best....

anyways... as for how to move in properly....

here's some suggestions.

1) step guard more... stepping to the side actually is more like stepping diagonally... eventually you'll move in...

2) after you block a move, try to buffer a forward step (65)... if you do it properly NM will make a giant step forward extremely fast...
example:

look at 0:26 what rock did after blocking asta's AB

3) after blocking a long range move... do iagA/33B.... i don't remember ivy having a really strong TC move at mid/long range... also if the move is long range the move can't be TOO fast.. so it's hard to imagine even at negative frames it can beat a move 33B.... and if it can't outspeed 33B... and Ivy just continue to block.... that means... you should be moving in at this range.... (refer to point 1 or 2)

4) GS transitions sucks... learn to randomly use 236 A out of the blue... especially if you're kinda expecting a mixup that involves vertical..... sure it's block punishable but imo it's worth the risk... if Ivy have a habit of NOT attacking and just blocking your GS A that'll mean..... you can use 236 to close in.... i actually use 236 or 236236 -> GS/FC/WS mixups to close in on distance at times.


last but not least.....

BE PATIENT.... yes you might need to block a bit more.. but once you're in..... perhaps that's all it takes to change the dynamic of the game.

hope the above suggestions helps a bit

-LAU