Character Matchup Tier Project

I'd like to weigh in on the Cass vs Taki matchup. I believe it to be 6:4 in Cass's favor. (This is pretty much the only tier related thing I'm even remotely sure of)
The reasoning behind this is as follows.

Every PO transition on block with the exception of 1BA~PO can be backdashed in order to nullify all of her options down to PO B (and even then you can block it). 2B+K stuffs both PO A and PO K for good damage. Hover can easily be reacted to, backdashed and 236(B) punished for silly damage. If your really looking out of it, you can dash under her too. Cass can use her fast backdash to maintain space, and force Taki to work to get in, as well as having the ability to nullify so many of her offensive options with backdashes or TC moves. Double bomb can be FC 3B'd on the second bomb easily by Cass as well. It is my belief that an educated Cass player, familiar with the ins and outs of Taki should be in control of the match the entire way.

-Idle

Edit: Sorry, didn't see the character specific discussion thing. I'll wait till something more pertient comes up with the characters I know to post more.
 
hajime: it's a character matchup based tier so it's a bit different though. see if you can get shenrei in here I'd like to hear his thoughts.
 
Genver:
mitsu's strong points are GI, 8wr punishment, CH, and probably range. I think most voldo setups suffer heavily if mitsu guesses right.
Also one of the major advantages for Mitsu is that 66A is bugged vs voldo's autoGI (BS A+B) succesful GI leaves mitsu standing with +3~4 frames of advantage. 2KB is also very strong against BS.

Saitoh:
mitsu's strong points are GI, 8wr punishment, CH and probably range.
I remember what you've pm'ed me, but I'm still convinced this matchup is not favorable for mitsu. I did a lot of research. Actually matchup I've posted are only those I have a LOT of experience versus _different_ players. I know almost all characters well, but I only post up what I did a lot of research and practice on.
You can hardly apply any of mitsu stronger tools in this matchup, b/c Asta throws are such a major part of his game. While FC 1B is among the best mitsu moves if there are chances to score a CH (any FC setup by other character) it is not such a strong FC punishment, and without it you cant fight asta. GI, step, CH tools all have poor risk reward in this particular match up. The only obvious advantages mitsu has in this matchup are 4B that only evades 4A+B and "safe" 1A and, but this move is generally bad, you have to throw it out when your opponent is using high moves for keep away, otherwise it gets blocked everytime and gives a free mix up. Astas I play against regulary punish all mitsu unsafes via 66B always except b:A which is generally hard to punish with a buffered 8wr move unless anticipated. mitsurugi is unable to prevent asta mixups from happening and cannot exploit his strong sides vs asta.

edit: I dont know which tools you mean work on all distance. general pokes with good range are 4A, b6 and bA. also you can use 8wr A+B to punish wiff or kB for CH and 1A for CH and or TC. while asta can spam stuff like 44A, 4A, 66K, maybe even 22_88B and 44B sometimes etc. you are supposed to stop his keep away with unsafe options. mitsu best CH long range poke b6 is very weak in this matchup. What kind of stuff can be abused? b:A at tip range is abusable, but asta has much more tools at same range. Stance? I dont think its good in this matchup. AB hurt relic a lot, and bullrush/throw is pure mixups vs mst transitions. against some characters you can force stance mind games but asta have 50/50 mixup nearly everytime he blocks a transition move. mitsu is also suspendible to GI and Asta GI is naturally good. Mitsu is weak against astaroth at most ranges b/c he cannot defend/reverse mixup against his mixups. Your point is that mitsu can force his mixups on astaroth easily but I dont think its true, asta has good tools to control range, you cant just get in without taking risks and even if you can asta mixups are more powerful that mitsurugi's so question is - what happens after your mixup works and what if it doesnt. Thats where rugi fails imo.
 
Belial : I can't really see how a solid Mitsu couldn't deal problems to a solid Astaroth.
Once Mitsurugi is installed in his stance pressure game up close, he'll deal a lot of problem to Astaroth. 6B+K /bullrsuh/GI can "escape" the pressure some times of course, but in the end it'll all be a mind game choice, and Mitsu will deal more damage up close than Astaroth. As always bull rush is a must since it'll prevent 4 happy Mitsurugi to avoid Asta "mix up"...

Not saying you aren't right, my Astaroth vs Mitsu experience is only very limited (my Astaroth sucks and I don't play him very often). But I get a feeling you and Saitoh are talking about different things.
Although believe me I can totally see from experience how Mitsu would get in close range. 6B+K~dash (stance dash, I don't know the name) is a pain in the ass, it'll evade most move Astaroth could throw at range apart from 22B which can be autoGIed... In the end ... bull rush is still your best bait xD.

Saitoh is talking about moves you can't punish with him / pressure game Astaroth has problems to escape.
You're talking about some moves you can punish with him / Astaroth mix up game Mitsurugi has problems to escape.

Could both of you explain in detail what you mean? Saitoh : which moves? which pressure game? Belial : which move? which mix up game ? (I believe it's bullrush/throw?)
 
I agree with Belial on this one. Asta is just better. Maxou you talk about mist dash, but a simple move like AB is a pain in the ass for Mitsu. Really, Mitsu has some range moves, but Asta can really keep the distance he likes with his huge axe.
Granted Mitsu can A+K on reaction moves such as A+B or 44[A]. But the rest is up to anticipation, and that's not good since Asta has the edge on the risk vs. reward ratio.

Asta can't punish a lot of moves, but he doesn't need to, thanks to his very damaging mix-ups after almost any blocked Mitsu move.
And the other problem is Mitsu's weak (compared to others) FC moves. Since you have to duck some throws (you can't take the 50-50 risk all the time against Asta), once you get there, you will seldom get any FC1BB CH (you'll only get a FC1B). The best punishment you'll get is a simple poke. It's not like Mitsu has a tool such as Night's WR ...
Mitsurugi can still put some real pressure on him, and a good Mitsu can still beat a good Asta on a tournament, but in the end, on a first to 10 wins, Asta will win 10-5 or 10-6 most of the times. Asta is just a Top tier character, Mitsu is mid.
 
Tiamat said:
I want to clarify something for Rock vs Hilde

Are you REALLY talking about crouch throwing her out of C3A? I think that would take a lot of balls to say the least. what if she doesn't do C3A at that exact moment? You whiff a crouch grab and now she can C3A combo you

maybe I'm just being retarded since I play neither character, but that just doesn't sound right to me
Click to expand...

Okay I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that as soon as they read his post, even if the very idea of doing it on reaction wasn't laughable to me, I'd still never bother attempting it, I'm using Rock for christ's sake I'm not going to risk being doom combo'd just for a crouch throw that won't even give much guaranteed damage.
 
musashi said:
Asta is just a Top tier character
Click to expand...

lol


In any case, I'm waiting for some other mitsu/setsu to step up with some rankings. If no one else steps up we'll just put up maxou's ranks for setsuka and some of the ones Belial posted (though asta and voldo matchup seem too debatable to put up).

I would LIKE US players.........
 
I can understand if you disagree... It's just a point of view I share with the people I play with.
But it's not like I based my opinion on that. I still believe Asta has the edge on this particular match-up, regardless of his place on the "tier list".
 
lets focus on getting the matchups down and making them as accurate as possible first. we can worry about aesthetics later

iGDR
 
Tiamat said:
I would too but no one was up to it. :(

I don't even know how to make one like they did.
Click to expand...

Don't worry man, I know you are doing an awesome job. Just keep doing what you're doing. You can always the numbers into a magic chart generator later. I think the french chart is too hard to read anyway...
 
Setsuka vs. Cervantes:
One point that I feel is important is that Cervantes has good horizontals and his verticals track well for the most part. It makes it nearly impossible for Setsuka to use sidestep->B+K. It reduces both her offense and defense greatly.
It gives me the impression that he's a difficult matchup.
However I have no idea if 2143aB is a big threat to a good Cervantes or not.
Setsuka's umbrella + Cervantes' poor CF game might be enough to give Setsuka the advantage...


Setsuka vs. Maxi:
5/5 is a joke, I'm sure.
 
I don't find Cervy hard to step at all with Setsuka . In fact you can step G most of his tracking horizontals, and if the verticals are tracking you it might be that you are stepping too late or improperly.
 
I just tried his moves in practice mode. (I should have done that earlier...)
His verticals don't seem to track that well after all.
So I was probably sidestepping too soon.
But most of his verticals are never used by anyone. So I still keep my belief that it's an advantage against Setsuka. Cervantes rarely uses verticals.
 
Successful step depends on frame disadvantage and size of step. Sets has it pretty easy i think where that is concerned.
Why all the talk about verticals being stepped? that's the case with everyone for the most part.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom