Hate Speech: On the Subject of Change

  • Moderator
Fact: Namco isn't afraid to perform radical surgery on Soul Calibur's core mechanics from one iteration of the game to the next.

This is perhaps most evident with additions like SC4's implementation of the soul gauge, but it's equally present in the ongoing metamorphosis of the guard impact system, the overall speed of the games, and the considerable retooling of characters such as Nightmare, Ivy, and Talim.

Even the bewilderingly venerated SC2 was a jarring departure from its predecessor; the "streamlined" guard impacts, guard break changes, and the addition of larger stages--not to mention walls--certainly demanded a period of acclimation.

Some people insist that change and growth are natural, even positive phenomena, but don't be fooled: change is the single worst thing in the world, ever.

Think about it. One minute sitting in your darkened basement decked out in a velour tracksuit, rocking back and forth with your knees hugged tightly to your chest while watching low-quality VHS tapes of Ronald Reagan's greatest speeches and worrying over the metaphysical certainty of a Soviet invasion is the model of sensible patriotism. Then a little time passes, change rears its ugly head, and all of a sudden people call me strange for all that. I mean you. Hypothetically.

3WZnl.png
Exhibit A: Ice Cube

As I already mentioned, the perils of change apply just as much to our beloved games as to Cold War politics, and given Namco's track record I think we need to brace ourselves. In fact, Daishi already fired the opening volley on his Twitter feed when he announced a characteristically extreme retooling of several cherished mechanics. Frankly, I recommend panic and despair. If you absolutely insist upon being reasonable human beings, however. . .

The Serenity Prayer

The amount of influence we can exert over the system changes in SC5 is minor, but it does exist. We have far more control, however, over our reactions to changes as they are proposed.
What this means in practical terms is choosing optimism or pessimism, strategy or chaos, and while the former remains generally an open question, choosing strategy is ironclad policy here at Hate Speech. When confronted with proposed system changes or new mechanics, we obviously begin evaluating them in relation to what we already know, prompting four major questions:

Is this familiar?

We're all used to things operating in a particular way, and departures can be unsettling. The mere shock of the new can be enough to prompt a visceral negative reaction, which is why this is a piss-poor metric for evaluating anything.

Is this good?

Pretend for a moment, if necessary, that you're coming to competitive Soul Calibur for the first time. Without the bias and baggage of what you already know, examine the mechanic on its own merits and decide whether it contributes to a richer gameplay experience.

Is this better than what it's replacing?

Now we compare. Does the new mechanic objectively make the game more interesting than the old one?

How might this affect me?

Will play to your strengths? Will it necessitate the development of different habits or skills?

By way of example, let's take the new GI (4A+B+K, repels all attacks, costs meter). Is it familiar? Vaguely, at best. Is it good? Well, a GI mechanic adds depth to the fighting experience, so let's call that a yes. Is it better than what it's replacing? This is the tricky part. While the input is simplified, it costs meter, meaning it becomes part of a much larger meter management metagame that we only partially understand. Being able to bait an opponent into wasting meter on a whiffed GI--a likely scenario, given the simplified command will make people more inclined to attempt them--might be incredibly strong. Poorly implemented, however, this mechanic is a large step back. How will it affect me? Personally, I'll have to spend time unlearning some muscle memory and also experimenting with ways I can really turn this thing to my advantage. This will require thought.

NXVO0.png
I know, it hurts.

When thinking your way through these changes it's important to retain an aggressive mindset. Be aggressively inquisitive, aggressively critical, and above all aggressively confident. Be like Mick, another renowned player. The man has an almost pugilistic faith in himself. When some of the earliest SC5 videos were released, he shared some of his thoughts on Pyrrha, which can essentially be boiled down to, "she might be a real problem for people." What's important here is that he saw a potentially strong character and immediately imagined himself using her to crush some skulls, not the other way around.

This sort of strategic thinking will ultimately pay dividends when the game is released; you should already have in mind several lines of experimentation to pursue. Just as importantly, well-reasoned discussion strikes me as having a far greater chance of actually influencing Namco. A compelling case for why mechanic X is superior to its replacement might actually sway somebody.

7lHtX.jpg
Or we could keep doing this.

Homework:

Let's break this thing down. Given what we've been told (and seen) about SC5, pretend you have the game in your hands and have developed a reasonable mastery of these new mechanics. Rather than focusing on how they screw this or that character/playstyle, let's make a list of how these things might be used to the advantage of an intelligent player. How do they make you stronger? Alternatively, what's a change being discussed that is clearly inferior to the mechanic it's replacing? You call it.
 
Change killed my father and raped my mother.

I think that this GI/Parry change will be a fantastic tool used by the elite players to keep the poor, dirt farmer "bads" down on their horrible, disease ridden mud plantations (or equivalent downtrodden locale). Much like GIs/Parries are used now by the better players but to an even further extreme as instead of being able to just hit 4G or 6G with no "cost" you now have to actually SPEND something to do so. This hidden mental investment will turn off alot of players from this fantastic technical tool and, as I stated before, extend the gap between the tiers of players.

I recently went to a gathering at a local college that had MK as a main attraction for just casuals and what not and the vast majority of the players didn't even know the basics of the combo breaker ability. "Why do that when I can just get more damage with my SUPER BADASS SHADOW KICK!?" was heard in one form or another from various players. There wasn't a soul among them who knew how to properly interrupt a high damaging combo that would have potentially turned the match in their favor.

Now these specimens of the local gaming community weren't the most competitive and definitely not representative of the best of the best of America's Elephant Graveyard that is Florida, however I can see alot of players thinking along the same lines as they do... why spend meter on something when I could get more damage from something else by expending that very same meter?

I'm lamenting, for the most part, on behalf of all the "Starcraft Bronze" level players of Soul Calibur V that I come across as they will know first hand how much of a gap there will be.

On a side note: It took me ~10 tries to remember my password.
 
As for the A+B+K part, well, I suppose that's why they let us bind buttons. It will definitely pose potential challenges for people who have played with a certain setup on their pad for years and years...

No challenge! Just hit K at the same time as your A+B button!
 
Christ almighty...To be honest, the whole guage thing came straight out of the universe of Mortal Kombat...and, to be straight, that's ridiculous. I don't play Soul Calibur to play Mortal Kombat... I play Soul Calibur to play Soul Calibur. What's so hard to understand about that?

I think your MK comparison is significantly off the mark here. Realistically, MK borrows the concept of meter and X-Rays (supers) from Street Fighter. In fact, meter and cinematic supers are now fairly common fare for 2D games. This strikes me as a fundamentally good thing. First, there's the potential to add a lot of depth to an already deep system. Second, adding elements familiar to 2D players potentially makes the game more "legible" to them. I believe this will have a positive net effect on both spectatorship (it looks cool) and how many people show up to compete in our game (it's not completely alien--legacy meter management skills will pay dividends).
 
Christ almighty...To be honest, the whole guage thing came straight out of the universe of Mortal Kombat...and, to be straight, that's ridiculous. I don't play Soul Calibur to play Mortal Kombat... I play Soul Calibur to play Soul Calibur. What's so hard to understand about that?

mortal kombat never had a gauge til the game that was released this year, street fighter been rockin a meter since 1994 o.O along with dozens and dozens of other 2D fighters that've been released since SF2Turbo came out.
 
when i was at evo watching sf4ae on sunday i remember people get so hype when they land combo -> super/ultras and other things involving ultras. it really got me feeling like wow, if sc had this more people might like it or be into it and it seems namco agrees. we'll see how it plays out.
 
New "4A+B+K GI" costing meter even for Re-GI = No Re-GI when 0% meter = Free damage after GI-ing a rival with 0% meter = If playing smart, no double random or unconfirmed CE or excessively spending meter.

New "4A+B+K GI" impacting all attacks except grabs & UBs = Omits mind games between High+Mid & Mid+Low impacts, which -to me- is good because I don't have to guess/bet with GI & is just about timing & reaction, but is not-so-good because it might kill some of my mix-ups at zoning & force me to close-in more. :P

Also, New GI flip-launches a rival's jumping (or TJ) attacks = GI into wall combos or GI into RO? Hmm n_n = No jumping near wall or ring edges.

New "Grab Breaks" at normal & late breaks making bit-damage = 1 more reason to G2 when close combat. IMO, Project Soul made it as an Anti-Turtle option.

New "JG"...
If characters have more moves that are safe or that gives advantage & that heavily crushes guard when guarded, then JG is good & commonly practical for how safe it is to input. Missing a JG doesn't have a whiff window to punish it, but it leaves rivals taking that Guard crush damage which breaks quite fast, ooyea n_n.
If characters have more attack with guard advantage + good guard crush, then simply holding G will not be enough for turtle-players. n_n

BE = to keep track of when a mix-up might change into BE options for safer pokes or safer ring re-locations = more reason to keep Guarding or/& wait to JG, or to GI if needed to stop rival's momentum & guard crush pressure.

Quick Step (or QS)
Finally, a legit attack-dodge system! I just hope that Horizontal moves to track 1000000% & vertical moves to track -1000000%.

Does anyone knows if Guard-walk/stalk (G6/G4) are back in SC5? Since there's JG & GI is now 4A+B+K, it would be very practical to input G6 & G4 for guard-walking.

Btw, I don't like, agree-with or approve the "freeze-frame" or "slow-motion" effect before a CE comes out. A freeze-frame or slow-motion before a CE comes out kinda takes me out of the battle rush into a "oh, so obvious" reaction. The current freeze-frame or slow-mo of CE hinders them IMO. I prefer how MK9 does the freeze frame or slow-motion AFTER the X-Ray catches my rival. MK's X-Ray doesn't cause that to me because when a slow-mo occurs is because I'm giving or receiving damage while the slow-mo happens & not before it hits.

How Pyra does during the slow-mo at the beginning of her CE looks very ridiculous to me. Looks like if she had just broken "her water" or like if she's going through "her period". MK's X-Ray presentation are better than all Super-presentations in fighting games because they don't throw-off my timing by freezing the screen, or they are not so OBVIOUSLY guarded after a rival input them because no slow-mo occurs until they hit.
 
New "4A+B+K GI" costing meter even for Re-GI = No Re-GI when 0% meter = Free damage after GI-ing a rival with 0% meter = If playing smart, no double random or unconfirmed CE or excessively spending meter.

I hadn't even considered this--it's potentially nasty. Nice!
 
GIs were good for low tier characters. And baby Astaroth, because of his powerful throw game, and his silent powerful Soul Guage damage.

In SCV.
Grabs do damage, even chip damage on break.
Characters like Ivy and Astaroth have grab CEs.
The new GI can't parry throws, UBs, or CE.
GI now launches after parrying some 9B shit,(doesn't asta have air grabs?)
They also parry HML, for a measly 25% meter.
Launchers beat the live shit out of your health bar.
And meter is easy to gain.

=
Don't get any where near Astaroth or Ivy with a Full meter.

Once you eat a GI you will take damage guaranteed. As far as their CEs hitting you, you can gamble, either you risk GI ing only to eat a CE or do nothing and take some launcher to the face.

With 200% meter you hurting either way. His bullrush doesn't knockdown...lol like that's a bad thing. It stuns you a bit straight in his face. I am calling it...Astaroth top tier.
 
I understand all of this and the positive side to the GI changes, it just seems as if there are far more powerful techniques for defense than offense, which is worrying.
 
I understand all of this and the positive side to the GI changes, it just seems as if there are far more powerful techniques for defense than offense, which is worrying.
Brave Edge and Critical Edge are really powerful though.. then the new quick step and improved stepping/speed increase. It seems like it's balancing out
 
I'm excited for this game beyond belief and am staying as positive as possible. So far I see it as

Offense:
Brave Edge
Critical Edge
(What appears to be) improved guard crush attacks
An actual guard break system
Very powerful throws

Defense:
Just Guard
Quick Step
Increased dash speed
Better GI

The strength of Brave Edges (or even how they are performed) is unknown to me. If guard crushes are more effective then Just Guard is going to be very important.
 
Characters with long range will be top tier in this game; they will build their gauge from far away and most people will be pissed; Astaroth and Ivy will have more reasons to be picked up, and online you will see only Astas and Ivys crowning the rankings...

I hope they will find some way to fix this; the only way to be equal with an over powered opponent in SC since ancient times is having excellent defense and increase your reaction time to do GI; Now the characters with easiest chances to increase their Gauge will have the upper hand in the new SC.

This SCV is all about Gauge; SCIV was about safe/unsafe; SCIII was about power and damage; SCII was about mind games and turtling; SC was about guts and ROs.
 
Characters with long range will be top tier in this game; they will build their gauge from far away and most people will be pissed; Astaroth and Ivy will have more reasons to be picked up, and online you will see only Astas and Ivys crowning the rankings...

Too early for that statement IMO. We don't know how the game will be balanced. We can only speculate, unfortunately, until we get our hands on the game.
 
Meter is 0/200. Full meter = 200/200.
GI = -25.
BE = -50.
CE = -100.
Full meter is enough for: GIx8, or BEx4, or CEx2.
Some various possible meter-options:
GIx2 BEx1 CEx1 ( 200 -25 = 175 -25 = 150 -50 = 100 -100 = 0 )
GIx2 BEx3 ( 200 -25 = 175 -25 = 150 -50 = 100 - 50 = 50 -50 = 0 )
GIx4 BEx2
GIx4 CEx1
GIx6 BEx1
BEx2 CEx1
GIx1 BEx1 GIx1 CEx1
etc..

Add up to that, the meter seems to build-up fast enough to full, that by using meter often enough to not keep saving-up after reaching 200, it could be built to full around 4 times,
 
Characters with long range will be top tier in this game; they will build their gauge from far away and most people will be pissed; Astaroth and Ivy will have more reasons to be picked up, and online you will see only Astas and Ivys crowning the rankings...

I hope they will find some way to fix this; the only way to be equal with an over powered opponent in SC since ancient times is having excellent defense and increase your reaction time to do GI; Now the characters with easiest chances to increase their Gauge will have the upper hand in the new SC.

This SCV is all about Gauge; SCIV was about safe/unsafe; SCIII was about power and damage; SCII was about mind games and turtling; SC was about guts and ROs.

you are the greatest man on this forum its like u read my mind
 
The best remedy to online balance issues is to play in offline tournaments. ;)

What do we know about the specifics of how meter is built? Is whiffing a move enough, or does it require your opponent to block an attack? If the latter, I think there's potential for a significant meter advantage not for long range characters, but for string characters like Maxi, Natsu, etc.
 

Live streams

2 Viewers
FuzzyCatGirl
FuzzyCatGirl
Soul Cal Saturday!!! Get in here!!!

Forum statistics

Threads
14,897
Messages
676,690
Members
17,202
Latest member
philmckrackon
Back