Hate Speech: Theory Fighter University: Remedial Math

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Greetings, my minions... I mean, class! When last we met, we glossed the basic idea that characters can and should be evaluated on their own merits, divorced from such harder to quantify things as ease of use or player skill. Today we’ll be engaging with the mechanics of such evaluation.

There can be no doubt that psychology, creativity, good reads, and mental toughness—all subjective qualities—are critical to achieving success in competitive fighting games. The stage on which these particular player qualities are brought to bear is, by contrast, decidedly objective, being defined by hard numbers. That being the case, when it comes to evaluating character match-ups and mixup scenarios, it stands to reason that we can use these numbers to gain valuable insight into which characters, discrete options, and so on, give us the most dramatic advantage. Don’t worry, it’s not as daunting as it seems. I think. Screw it. Go ahead and worry. Maybe pop some Advil before we get started, too, just in case.

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Definition Time

Some useful terms:

Mixup Scenario

A situation, post-hit, -block, wakeup, or in the open field, wherein a player is forced to make a guess of some sort.

Example: after Astaroth or Voldo’s ground pick-up throws, the player being picked up must usually guess between defending against a throw or a safe mid.

Zero-Sum Mixup

Borrowing obliquely from game theory’s usage of the term zero-sum, this defines a situation wherein guessing correctly nets a player damage while guessing incorrectly costs him damage. This is in contrast to mixups wherein a player might guess correctly and be rewarded only with escaping damage and perhaps frames.

Example: Any mixup involving forcing an opponent to choose between defending one of two unsafe options.

Mathematical Advantage

This term applies to any match-up or mixup scenario in which, after equalizing for player skill, the underlying raw numbers favor a particular character over time. The highest levels of competitive play are all about maximizing mathematical advantage and repeatedly forcing these situations onto an opponent.

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Calculating Mathematical Advantage

First, to be clear, I’m not demanding that anyone break out their TI-86s. Just getting an idea of a range like “Very Good/Good/Bad/Abysmal” can be enough to act as a general guideline. To that end, I’ll only be engaging with the numbers to an extent; once the general tenor of a mixup becomes apparent, I see no reason in pursuing it down to microscopic detail.

A basic scenario would be Astaroth, in a position of advantage, running up to another character and mixing between a throw and a Bullrush (66K). In most cases, the defending player’s options are crouching, which defeats the former, and sidestep, which defeats the latter. (Note that, given these parameters, the defender is forcing Astaroth into a zero-sum mixup. Electing to block a bulrush instead of stepping it makes the scenario far more favorable for Astaroth because it gives him an option wherein the defender guesses correctly but he does not, in fact, take damage.) Astaroth’s general reward structure, assuming he guesses correctly, is as follows:

  • Bullrush hits, opponent takes 28 damage, and is knocked down.
  • Throw connects, opponent takes an average of around 36 damage*, and is knocked down.
Guessing incorrectly, of course, opens him up to step punishes and FC/WR punishes, respectively.

*Note on how throw damage is calculated here: I added the damage for his A and B command grabs, roughly 65 and 80 damage, then divided by two. I then divide by two again to account for a 50% chance to break each grab.

Now let’s plug in the punishments for Astaroth guessing incorrectly. We’ll use Cervantes for this example:
  • Bullrush is stepped, Cervantes punishes with 3B, iGDR, 28B for 65 damage, Astaroth grounded.
  • Throw is ducked, Cervantes punishes with FC A+B spam for ~70, opponent grounded, or WR A, aK for roughly 50 damage and significant advantage, Astaroth left standing.
The scenario outlined, we have to factor player skill out of this equation. Assuming both players are equally skilled, we can assume that, over a long enough time horizon, each will guess right 50% of the time, yielding an average damage of (28+36)/2=32 average damage for Astaroth, and (65+50)/2=57.5 average damage for Cervantes if we reliably go with his easier, less damaging option. Astaroth is effectively wagering57 damage to deal 32. Cervantes has a decisive mathematical advantage of almost two to one.

Let’s observe how the numbers change if Cervantes decides to stand and block bullrush rather than commit to stepping. Astaroth’s numbers remain unchanged; he’s still getting an overall average of about 32 damage every time he initiates this mixup. By blocking bullrush rather than stepping and punishing, however, Cervantes’ numbers become (0+50)/2=25 if we take the lower damage option, (0+70)/2=35 for his more difficult punish. In the first case, Astaroth has a marginal mathematical advantage. In the second, Cervantes’ mathematical advantage is negligible. Doing the math tells us why it is important to minimize your own zero-sum mixups while working, as in the case of stepping instead of blocking in the above example, to maximize the number of zero-sum mixups your opponent utilizes.

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Application and Caveats

Before you start frothing at the mouth and exclaiming things like “b-b-but if I was Astaroth I’d throw out 66A and etcetera, etcetera,” remember that we’re talking about guidelines, not absolutes. There are myriad ways in which basic mixup scenarios can be made more complicated. That said, these complications tend to undermine the effectiveness of the original mixup, introducing new risks and rewards into the occasion. Circumstances will invariably shift and evolve, and that is where your own skills as a player have an opportunity to shine.

What’s more, it’s important to remember that evaluating mixups and match-ups in this fashion addresses averages over time. There are no guarantees that these numbers will bear out 100% in any given match, or even any given five or ten matches. When you’re flipping a coin, sometimes it just comes up all tails. Even so, possessing a strong understanding of any situation’s mathematical underpinnings allows a savvy player to subtly shift the match into his favor, and these results will manifest themselves over time.

One important way to utilize this is the concept of “trading down.” Mathematical advantage helps us determine when it is appropriate to generate particular mixup scenarios. While it’s always in a player’s best interest to engage in as many mathematically advantaged mixups as possible, there are times when roughly equal scenarios become desirable. If you find yourself with a life lead, for example, it’s perfectly reasonable to open up your game and push mixups that favor neither you nor your opponent because, over time, the averages dictate that you’ll lose roughly the same amount of life. When you’re already ahead, equal losses just magnify your advantage while potentially further limiting your opponent’s options if his life drops low enough.

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Homework:
Think about match-ups you play frequently, or those that give you particular trouble, and run the numbers on some of the most common scenarios. See how the math favors or disfavors you. If the math’s on your side, it means your opponent is reading you like a book—get better. If the math’s against you, look for alternatives which might allow you to shift the numbers in your favor, then go play somebody and test it. And, of course, report back here.

Also, next week we will be deviating from the norm a little bit. Be prepared for the worst.
 
As much as I hate bringing this up I see Nirf and Signia trying to nitpick at math and I have to bring up the concept of the metagame. The metagame is basically how the commonly used options shape the matchup at hand. So lets take the Cervy vs Asta example from the article itself to illustrate a metagame shift.

Now if your goto option for defense as a player is block, you could think the Asta/Cervy scenario involved is fairly close to break even and not be too wrong. If your goto option for defense as a player is sidestep, you can lol in asta's face and light him the fuck up for doing bullrush. Neither of these assessments is really right or wrong, the difference is how the metagame matches up with who you are playing. Where a metagame shift happens is when the Cervy player who blocks realizes he should be sidestepping to tip the balance of the risk/reward in his favor.

We can take it back to what Nirf said earlier about people not using things at true 50/50 frequency, which is common everywhere. The thing is tailoring your options doesn't give you a mathematical advantage, if gives you an edge over their metagame. Why is it not mathematical? Because you aren't dealing with hard definite variables. There is no way to quantify he isn't going to block low until you throw a lot of them at him and then he will overvalue low guard and you can abuse him with mids. This is just something you have to do as a player using on the spot intuition. I would even go so far as saying that attempting to bring this out of the realm of intuition would be something left to an actual mathematician, because the variables are mind boggling in number and the method for calculating responses is almost infinitely variable.

I really want to take it back this is precisely why the math for hates deriving the weight of a mixup is ideal. You get to view the risk vs reward divorced of preference and/or metagame options. It shows the meat and potatos of what you are trying to accomplish, namely is this where I should be pressing my advantage in this matchup or should I try to pressure in more advantageous ways? The real heart of the matter is a question similar to this "If I don't let my opponent outguess me, will I still be ahead from using my planned options?"

Which brings us to the reason most theory fighter blows. People aren't made of numbers. They will change their gameplay as a game progresses and the best laid plans of mice and men get figured out all the time only to backfire. Why do they backfire? Plans are made of numbers, and as such people can figure them out and take the most advantageous options vs your strategy in a metagame shift that happens during a match. So if you want to plan your way to victory against an intelligent opponent you need a plan for things as they stand, a plan for when a dude adapts and a plan to smash his adaptation... Maybe on several levels.

PS - I miss starcraft... That is the only game ever where the concept of a metagame is easy to point out.
 
I feel I have greatly simplified the whole topic as it relates to math.

The math itself is just a metric to help you judge the weight of given options as they relate to each other. While it should to some degree dictate your move choice, you should never let numeric values dictate your gameplay. Gameplay should be variant based on your judgement of the situation at hand, only at that point should you account for player tendencies and other such variables.
 
The metagame naturally approaches Nirf's figures though, not "50-50." There's no reason we should assume equal preference to each option. Unpreferenced would be using a mix of options close to Nirf's equilibrium.

Gameplay should be variant based on your judgement of the situation at hand, only at that point should you account for player tendencies and other such variables.
That's kinda what I said in my post, you need to look at their mix and counter it with your own mix. Which moves and how often depends on how often they do options in their mix. This can and has to be done intuitively, but the math tells you how it really works, and it can be an excellent tool in determining roughly how often each option should be done.
 
Brewtus, I'm an "actual" physicist, close enough? Anyhow, what Signia said is spot on. Yes, the model I gave is extremely simple and misses a ton of stuff, in fact most of the important stuff is not captured by it. But it captures at least some interesting behavior, which makes it a good starting point, unlike the 50-50 stuff which is just flat out wrong. You describe Hates math as "if I don't let my opponent outguess me, will I be ahead from using my planned options?". This is 100% false; that is actually an exact description of MY math. Hates' math, in addition to not having "outguessing" just has poor decision making from both players built in.

I understand what you are saying about metagame, yeah this model doesn't capture that and lots of other stuff. It captures the game at the level of being played by two robots that are randomizing their actions as optimally as possible.

By the way, if you've read a standard book on poker literature, they discuss game theory very similarly to how I do it here. They would of course never assume that someone's likelihood to call is 50%. And poker too is a game where the math and probabilities are just part of what's going on (and part of a metagame). They use these game theory ideas as a guide. It's probably more applicable to poker than fighting games (in fighting games there are far more options in particular) however the basic concept is similar.
 
I have played poker for a living for about 8 years... So I have read a poker book or two. The problem with using models for that and applying them to fighting games is in poker you have a truly random element. In fighters the random is a human factor that is beyond statistical prediction. It's not that your math is wrong I would say your fault in calculation was trying to quantify player tendencies.

Personally I don't even take it as far as hates does, I keep it nice and simple. I wouldn't take it farther then this
Damage outcomes for the payoff matrix:

BG: Asta bullrushes, Cervantes guards, = 0.
BC: Asta bullrushes, Cervantes crouches, = 28 damage.
GG: grab, guard = 36* damage.
GC: grab, crouch = -70 damage (i.e. Asta takes 70 damage).
Right there you understand the inherent risk and reward. Everything beyond that is a strategic concern you can't factor into your gameplay.

Should you assume that bullrush is more common and you "adapt" by choosing to counter it more, you are making strategic judgements based on math. The reason this is bad is because strategy is made of numbers, so if a player looked at your gameplay and realized that. They can just grab you all day and should come out ahead... Don't ask me to prove this with numbers, fuck that noise.

So once again as plainly as I can possibly state. You need to view the weight of the options at hand differently then you weigh your strategic concerns. People favoring the safer option is a strategic concern and not one you should derive with math.

The main fault with it is that it grows off it's own logic. So if you have like minded individuals the result will probably hold true towards reality. But what about when someone doesn't give a fuck about numbers and just does things they think will work? Someone can essentially try and play you in a way that should hand over the match, but is so counterintuitive to your logic your adaptations are on the wrong spectrum and thus you lose.

Not to say you can't identify a shitty strategy and counter it. But simply that doing that needs to not be a math derivative or you better be damned good at your mental math.

When you try to quantify someones motivation to push buttons you better be doing it on an individual basis. Everyone who has done a decent amount of travelling for fighters will be able to remember at least one instance of travelling to another area and playing a character you normally feel very comfortable playing against. But in a style you are not familiar with and therefore you lose horribly in what you thought was one of your better matchups.

The bottom line is there is no right and wrong answer outside of what would work in a given instance. What really matters? Knowing how things will end up and applying that to what you know about the person at hand.

PS - If you want to use said equations to determine how you want your baseline strategy to look, that could be a very good application... or you could just favor safe options while gathering data on a new opponent. But if you get attached to the idea of favoring certain options because they are better on paper, it will bite you in the ass eventually.
 
I was randomly thinking about it and I came up with a great point related to Nirf referencing poker literature. In poker as in fighting games regardless of how mathematically sound your strategy is, without deception intelligent opponents will never do what you want them to do... Unless they have you beat and you are the one being trapped. You can read all the sklansky in the world, but application of math will only carry you past the lowest level of gameplay. If you want to excel in poker you need to adapt to the table at hand. If you try to use the same strategy every time you sit down in either format, you will lose. (Now before you question that last part in the realm of poker, just accept that you are playing @ 1/2NL or higher. Not micro stakes where you can number crunch all day and nobody notices.)

I could compare your calculations to determine the weight of your options to a program that can determine your "table image" from statistics. It will work until the opponent realizes your methods (provided they are smart enough), then it will be your downfall.

The variables are simply far too many and far too complicated in their interaction to try and solve for a solution. There is no single solution (regardless of how complex) and thinking that one exists is folly.
 
If you give him nothing in that department, he basically becomes a great big coin flip (see: the difference in SC3 Asta vs. SC4 Asta).
Please I don't want to remember SC3 Asta... he deserves the name "Nightmare" a lot more than the Azure Knight... the only problem was that in SC3 all the characters except Talim, Mina and Rock were incredible powerful... and the mid tier characters were completely unpredictable (Omega's Zasalamel as example)...

Good Work Hates, as always.

PD: Don't write SC3's Asta ever... its a bad memory...
 
If you want to use said equations to determine how you want your baseline strategy to look, that could be a very good application... or you could just favor safe options while gathering data on a new opponent. But if you get attached to the idea of favoring certain options because they are better on paper, it will bite you in the ass eventually.
This is a great point. You either go into the match with a set of assumptions because it's a proven method, or you focus on collecting data. I find whenever I play someone for the first time, the first choice can help give me an edge if the opponent falls for my setups. However, if they are ready for these moves, then not only am I losing the match, but then I need to rethink my strategy on the spot. Time is limited in a tournament, and this is dangerous. As for the second choice of downloading information first-hand, this can potentially lead to outguessing them consistently and keeping a competitive edge. However, failing to get any sort of meaningful intel leads to a loss, as well. You can only go one path or the other. And though a balance helps, everyone still has a base.

Personally, I don't really care if I beat people with my math and setups. Because then I don't really understand why I beat them. I'd rather get to know someone and feel like I won because I know how they think. But, the tournament format is too gimmicky for this, so I'll never feel like I have that satisfaction. Nonetheless, it's still a fun experiment getting to know people.
 
Should you assume that bullrush is more common and you "adapt" by choosing to counter it more, you are making strategic judgements based on math. The reason this is bad is because strategy is made of numbers, so if a player looked at your gameplay and realized that. They can just grab you all day and should come out ahead... Don't ask me to prove this with numbers, fuck that noise.
But if you play by a Nash equilibrium (the thing Nirf calculated), your opponent can't do any better than if they played by their Nash equilibrium. By definition, they can't do any better than that, only worse. So grabbing over and over wouldn't help. I'm pretty sure that's what that calculation is all about, finding a mix that minimizes their reward given ANY mix the opponent uses. Saying something like this makes me think you don't understand what Nirf did (though it's possible I'm the one who misunderstood -- correct me if I'm wrong!).

Otherwise, point taken. It's impossible to play by a mixed strategy anyway since we can't perfectly simulate randomness. And I already explained why you might not want to play at the equilibrium, since while they can't do any better, YOU can do better if you hard counter their mix.
 
So seeing as we're talking math now - I was talking to Belial a few months ago, discussing advantage post 2KB JUKE vs. Siegfried, Belial was adamant that the subsequent mixup is in Sieg's favour (3(B)_GI) assuming Mitsu continues to press offense. This doesn't quite stack up right in my head, can somebody clear this up for me?

I dont quite remember, b/c those talks happen ALL THE TIME, but its either of those or both:
1) We were talking, wheather it is a good idea or not to JU after 2KB. Which is imo pretty obvious that you want to JU regardless of the char.
2) "Belial, my friend keeps doing 2KB, even if I JU he likes to spam move A and move B, what the hell do I do?"

To which my answer is something like this:
After you JU you have a lot of options - GI, step, atack, evade etc.
If you dont JU you get more damage and you can't do anything otg but take damage.

Problem for most people is that they cannot handle post JU situation, all they do is block high or low and get caught in a loop of pain, and then create "I-hate-mitsu" threads.
Where in fact, a thought out 2-3 defencive options can really hurt your opp. post JU game. (Which I believe is what "Siegfried example" was about)

Some general theory to end this with:
If you only use 1 option, your opp will adjust, and you soon will stop using it, and again believe mitsu is broken and its better not to JU.

So this all must be used in complex. option A must provoke a reaction, option B shoud adress that reaction. etc.
 
Actually let me break down the nash equilibrium and why it fails in this context. The Nash equilibrium is using logical math to determine trends. Smart money would play it safe, so it picks up on that and using that as an assumption scales things to be more on the safe side. This includes the knowledge of your opponent's trends as well, so it adapts both sides to the safer gameplay. Thus creating a balance from it's own logic.

This will be perfect if you already undestand your opponent's logic, but what happens when you face someone who ignores logic? They will grab you 75% of the time, and you will have to adapt to their illogical play just as the equilibrium adapted to the safe play.

My question is this, what real worth does that level of math have if you throw it out the window vs people who aren't on the same page as you? IMO you better start using more of your brain and less of your calculator or you will not be able to keep up with the adaptation in high level gameplay.
 
I normally read hates over the weekend at work. But I ended up reading this one early BC a friend of mine said it was in direct conflictwith my online tatic myth video. Its a good read I just don't see the conflict my friend was speaking on. Great read as always spot on as usual
 
Actually let me break down the nash equilibrium and why it fails in this context. The Nash equilibrium is using logical math to determine trends. Smart money would play it safe, so it picks up on that and using that as an assumption scales things to be more on the safe side. This includes the knowledge of your opponent's trends as well, so it adapts both sides to the safer gameplay. Thus creating a balance from it's own logic.

This will be perfect if you already undestand your opponent's logic, but what happens when you face someone who ignores logic? They will grab you 75% of the time, and you will have to adapt to their illogical play just as the equilibrium adapted to the safe play.

My question is this, what real worth does that level of math have if you throw it out the window vs people who aren't on the same page as you? IMO you better start using more of your brain and less of your calculator or you will not be able to keep up with the adaptation in high level gameplay.
SWAG!
 
This is a great article.
I haven't paid attention to the other ones, and probably won't go back and look at them. But i'll definitely be keeping up with them from now on.
Good stuff Hates.
 
This is a great article.
I haven't paid attention to the other ones, and probably won't go back and look at them. But i'll definitely be keeping up with them from now on.
Good stuff Hates.
Yeah. The one on tiers is probably his best so far (as far as helping me progress)
 
I didnt mean to post much, really, but that "Hate speeches" are the best thing that happened to 8wr in some time. Discussion here is something I've been pondering for YEARS now, so I'll drop my 2 cents.

1) About Hates: yes, his math is _flawed_ in a way, but given its an article he's doing tremendeously good job at delivering the idea. I think he suggest the best concept so far. And also he is totally right on nonstandart positions. it is something that's better adressed with logic, rather than math.

2) About(and to) Nirf: In fact is right. I actually described that here http://caliburforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34608 take a look, last part where I describe matrices equations to solve risk-reward.

It is in no way contradictional to your ideas, but I want to point out one important thing. I came to realize over the years (and I've done matrices, like, since SC2) so I think there is a problem. SC generally has too much variables. And its really easy to dig into options forever and at uneccesary times. It is hard to keep too much stuff in mind. Its very difficult to calculate proper risk-reward for things like step, moves that give mixup on hit/block, delayed atacks and many other things. Sadly, some randomness still happen.

I want to separately talk about moves postion on hit/block. It is very hard to represent that with numbers. Hit gives you mixup, KD give you wakeup, if your move gets blocked/punished, your opp has mixup/wakeup. You dont want to calc all this. Just dont.

What you really want to do is to take 2-3 BEST reactions to most difficult situations and discrard the rest. If your opponent learns to beat those 2-3 options you adjust your game naturally.
But, speaking from experience - it is very hard for opponent to find a solution to 3 diverse options, that offer enough multi-coverage. Lets speak about when you're on defence: Its fair to say 99% opponents I ever played end up _doing nothing_ when faced with reverse mixup.
So here you dont want to seek for "perfect equilibrium", which, in case of freezing opponent, would be extremely complex (or applying your own mixup, which has terrible risk-reward you see). Usually what you want to do is to note your opponent habit - does he freeze and atack if nothing happen. how much it takes. does he throw? etc. And do something to punish him. Actually I've developed a number of habits, like using TC/TJ (MST for example) moves or step-atack when opponents freeze etc. If needed it all could be put into a matrix as well, though.

Another reason why its good to only limit yourself to so much math is b/c
a) You can only handle a few options yourself at a time
b) your health is finite.
You dont really want to calc all the small things. In reality most of the time you want to apply your primary mixup, with just a little adjustments. There are many "small" mixups in the game, that are favorable, but I just usually take a risk at randomness to deal 50 than guaranteed mixup for 20 or so. For example dashing/stepping before atacking (multicoverage in a sort, since it gives better tracking and will beat GI's).

It is really important how comfortable an option feel to a player. If there is an option that's only used in one situaion, one matchup its not that good, since its a lot of distraction.

3) Bibulus: Your point is also good. You cant completely substract human factor from SC. Though it is possible to ultimately solve things with math, it is much easier in effort/result regard, when you use both math _and_ logic.

PS: There is a very good book, that helped me understand a lot about how humans learn and apply this to my view on fighting games - On Intelligence by Jeff Hawkins. Recommended to every dedicated theory fighter (at least the first part or the book is, the second is a bunch of scientific in-depth stuff)

PS2: I've been trying to put together an article about, well, lots of things in fightings. Hopefully threads like this finally will get me motivated enough to finish it.
 
Its nice to be reminded that we can actually think in the way we play this game. This article is like a mental health must for Soul Calibur players. Thank you.
 
[Good 99999 word post.]

I'd love to see your organized thoughts on a lot of this stuff. As we discovered at Evo a few years back, you and I take a very similar approach to a lot of things, theory-wise, but I've always found the crucial differences useful and interesting.

As regards my article, I at least tried to foreground the ways I "cheat" with the numbers in order to make this a useful thought experiment. The trickiest thing to deal with regarding mixups is that the more you know what your opponent will do, the more effectively you can stop it. As such, optimal strategies are incredibly fragile things. I'm actually planning to engage with this concept in the relatively near future, because you can actually turn an opponent's good decision-making against him with a bit of effort.
 

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