Hilde Ban Discussion
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IgnisPhaseOne
[09] Warrior
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
We're not arguing the douchiness of a good player using this move to beat the shit out of lesser players. You're being an asshole if you use it on someone new who can't get in, THAT will destroy your SC4 community and you'll have to play by yourself.
If you're playing in a tournament, YOU ARE PLAYING TO WIN. Jesus, why does every thread go back to Sirlin, or fucking Yoda/Algol/etc ban shit? The purpose of a tournament is to have fun through higher competition, knowing that a lot is at stake (even if it's not), and knowing that your goal is to play your hardest and win with all the tools available. If you lose and are eliminated early, you should be having fun; you went to a tournament with the intention of putting out your best, and if you lose, your best isn't good enough. You were still playing the damn game, and you were putting out your best effort too. And maybe you learned something, made some new friends, got a chance to play your favorite fighting game at an extremely high level of play, something that you don't get to do often. (Or maybe you do, but whatever.)
If you're playing casually, it's NOT fun to play against. I wholeheartedly fucking agree. If you're the kind of asshole who only finds FUN in beating the shit out of people, immerse yourself in a community of noobs, and beat them senseless. You'll have to move often, because people won't want to play against you after that. I am NOT that guy, I KNOW those people. They're playing Smash next to me every week. Guess what? They don't have enough people, and I'm hoping they eventually stop showing up. They find fun in extremely high levels of play, and the game is only fun for them if they win. So they surround themselves with bad players and stomp them all day.
Hilde's RO combo is just fucking evil to new players. If you have such a low self esteem that you need to beat on people with a god combo that you can beat normally, then damnit, don't cry if you don't have a community. But THAT is what tournament play is there for.
We're not arguing the douchiness of a good player using this move to beat the shit out of lesser players. You're being an asshole if you use it on someone new who can't get in, THAT will destroy your SC4 community and you'll have to play by yourself.
If you're playing in a tournament, YOU ARE PLAYING TO WIN. Jesus, why does every thread go back to Sirlin, or fucking Yoda/Algol/etc ban shit? The purpose of a tournament is to have fun through higher competition, knowing that a lot is at stake (even if it's not), and knowing that your goal is to play your hardest and win with all the tools available. If you lose and are eliminated early, you should be having fun; you went to a tournament with the intention of putting out your best, and if you lose, your best isn't good enough. You were still playing the damn game, and you were putting out your best effort too. And maybe you learned something, made some new friends, got a chance to play your favorite fighting game at an extremely high level of play, something that you don't get to do often. (Or maybe you do, but whatever.)
If you're playing casually, it's NOT fun to play against. I wholeheartedly fucking agree. If you're the kind of asshole who only finds FUN in beating the shit out of people, immerse yourself in a community of noobs, and beat them senseless. You'll have to move often, because people won't want to play against you after that. I am NOT that guy, I KNOW those people. They're playing Smash next to me every week. Guess what? They don't have enough people, and I'm hoping they eventually stop showing up. They find fun in extremely high levels of play, and the game is only fun for them if they win. So they surround themselves with bad players and stomp them all day.
Hilde's RO combo is just fucking evil to new players. If you have such a low self esteem that you need to beat on people with a god combo that you can beat normally, then damnit, don't cry if you don't have a community. But THAT is what tournament play is there for.
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
tournaments are for...
...finding out who can win a tournament without using infinites and glitches, and is the best at their game at that place, time, and situation.
everything else - fun, community, meeting people, money, etc... that's all extra added bonus.
tournaments are not for...
...expecting to face opponents who wanna get to know you better and really enjoy your company.
tournaments are meant to expose the cheapest shit in order for WINS. high level play involves not only using cheap shit, but knowing how to battle against cheap shit. bitching and crying is for bitches and babies.
tournaments are for...
...finding out who can win a tournament without using infinites and glitches, and is the best at their game at that place, time, and situation.
everything else - fun, community, meeting people, money, etc... that's all extra added bonus.
tournaments are not for...
...expecting to face opponents who wanna get to know you better and really enjoy your company.
tournaments are meant to expose the cheapest shit in order for WINS. high level play involves not only using cheap shit, but knowing how to battle against cheap shit. bitching and crying is for bitches and babies.
shinobix558
[08] Mercenary
tribaL
[09] Warrior
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
i remember when i said before that hilde didn't really have shit outside of her charges back when this crap was first found out. people told me i was full of shit. i still stand by that now that i actually main her. almost her entire movelist is simply there to set up charges one way or another. if your opponent can deal with the charges extremely well, she becomes dick really fast; at that point your hilde game turns into using those crap moves repeatedly in order to make the charges effective again.
however, most people, that i've played against anyways, play against her pretty stupid, which is why the charges are good against most competition (especially online, holy hell people love rushing her down). if you play smart and turtle, step, at range, but can pound on the inside, you start diminishing her options.
i remember when i said before that hilde didn't really have shit outside of her charges back when this crap was first found out. people told me i was full of shit. i still stand by that now that i actually main her. almost her entire movelist is simply there to set up charges one way or another. if your opponent can deal with the charges extremely well, she becomes dick really fast; at that point your hilde game turns into using those crap moves repeatedly in order to make the charges effective again.
however, most people, that i've played against anyways, play against her pretty stupid, which is why the charges are good against most competition (especially online, holy hell people love rushing her down). if you play smart and turtle, step, at range, but can pound on the inside, you start diminishing her options.
Runis
Doom Combo is Back!
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
Hilde is a character with quite a lot of good, safe moves. No-one uses these moves, because there are BETTER options from charges.
Hilde is a character with quite a lot of good, safe moves. No-one uses these moves, because there are BETTER options from charges.
Manta
[10] Knight
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
I've never been on the side of banning someone, especially when it's too early.
But I will agree, playing against Hilde is definitely not fun =(
I'll take Algol, thank you.
-Manta-
I've never been on the side of banning someone, especially when it's too early.
But I will agree, playing against Hilde is definitely not fun =(
I'll take Algol, thank you.
-Manta-
Fuzion
[09] Warrior
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
So you guys really think there is nothing wrong with a 1-hit KO from a safe move that can be done just about anywhere on the stage? Lol.
So you guys really think there is nothing wrong with a 1-hit KO from a safe move that can be done just about anywhere on the stage? Lol.
SWBeta
[08] Mercenary
Runis
Doom Combo is Back!
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
she has an OHKO combo, but no one wants to spend 31 game seconds charging B and combined with placing someone next to a wall to pull it off?
IMO if NamDai removes Doom Combo, they need to reduce C4's to a 10 game second charge. Give her a UB people actually fear. not one they see coming a mile and a half away.
she has an OHKO combo, but no one wants to spend 31 game seconds charging B and combined with placing someone next to a wall to pull it off?
IMO if NamDai removes Doom Combo, they need to reduce C4's to a 10 game second charge. Give her a UB people actually fear. not one they see coming a mile and a half away.
tribaL
[09] Warrior
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
it's not a one hit ko, but i'm one of those crazy people that thinks that if i get hit with something that kills me, it was probably my fault. i also think that the characters that are banned shouldn't be.
it's not a one hit ko, but i'm one of those crazy people that thinks that if i get hit with something that kills me, it was probably my fault. i also think that the characters that are banned shouldn't be.
becky
[09] Warrior
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
i agree with this. combos always have a starter and if you see the setups and starters enough youll eventually find a way around it. hildes combos are no exception. in tournament play, if you get hit by that shit, you probably deserve it. but in friendly play, be a douchebag responsibly.
i wouldn't ban it. yall are too ban happy. itll probably be nerfed soon anyway.
i agree with this. combos always have a starter and if you see the setups and starters enough youll eventually find a way around it. hildes combos are no exception. in tournament play, if you get hit by that shit, you probably deserve it. but in friendly play, be a douchebag responsibly.
i wouldn't ban it. yall are too ban happy. itll probably be nerfed soon anyway.
Windstar
[13] Hero
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
She has safety in her A strings. Not so much in her B strings. Her K strings are about on par with everyone else's strings.
She has some hit advantage, but it doesn't really lead to anything.
The biggest problem with Hilde is that her move list is linear and mainly designed around supplementing her charges. With no charge game, Hilde ends up being a very poor character.
With her charge game, it changes up and makes her competitive. But only one of those charges hits low, the rest hit high or mid. And they don't lead to good mix-ups. Because of this, they need some capable advantage in order to punish turtling (beyond SG piercing) and some combo potential. Hence, they gain block advantage. As this is necessary for Hilde to have any kind of pressure game. And even with it, it still falls into the realm of predictability (and it can't punish that well). So more or less, Hilde is lower-mid to mid tier. Nothing terribly advantageous, but quite a few weak points.
Add in her Doom combo, and suddenly she has a competitive edge with a strong RO game. The combo damage itself is nothing impressive, when other characters can do that and more. In the end, this still puts Hilde in a mid tier position. Simply put, if every Hilde player is doing it (whether voluntary or forced to), the combo becomes predictable and players will learn how to deal with it.
On the other hand... some players might recall Sol Badguy's infamous Dust Loop combo. The sheer number of ways to enter that combo mirrors Hilde's doom combo. In that same sense, the combo is perhaps unintentional and possibly a little on the broken side. Consider that many characters do not have full RO combos. Certainly, many characters perform better in these stages, but not many of them can easily pull off a combo like Hilde from anywhere on the stage and ring out. As such, the doom combo does warrant some level of investigation.
Again, what would happen to Hilde if the combo was patched or banned? Would Hilde still be able to compete?
She has safety in her A strings. Not so much in her B strings. Her K strings are about on par with everyone else's strings.
She has some hit advantage, but it doesn't really lead to anything.
The biggest problem with Hilde is that her move list is linear and mainly designed around supplementing her charges. With no charge game, Hilde ends up being a very poor character.
With her charge game, it changes up and makes her competitive. But only one of those charges hits low, the rest hit high or mid. And they don't lead to good mix-ups. Because of this, they need some capable advantage in order to punish turtling (beyond SG piercing) and some combo potential. Hence, they gain block advantage. As this is necessary for Hilde to have any kind of pressure game. And even with it, it still falls into the realm of predictability (and it can't punish that well). So more or less, Hilde is lower-mid to mid tier. Nothing terribly advantageous, but quite a few weak points.
Add in her Doom combo, and suddenly she has a competitive edge with a strong RO game. The combo damage itself is nothing impressive, when other characters can do that and more. In the end, this still puts Hilde in a mid tier position. Simply put, if every Hilde player is doing it (whether voluntary or forced to), the combo becomes predictable and players will learn how to deal with it.
On the other hand... some players might recall Sol Badguy's infamous Dust Loop combo. The sheer number of ways to enter that combo mirrors Hilde's doom combo. In that same sense, the combo is perhaps unintentional and possibly a little on the broken side. Consider that many characters do not have full RO combos. Certainly, many characters perform better in these stages, but not many of them can easily pull off a combo like Hilde from anywhere on the stage and ring out. As such, the doom combo does warrant some level of investigation.
Again, what would happen to Hilde if the combo was patched or banned? Would Hilde still be able to compete?
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
Hmmmmmmmm.
What's worse, Hilde being overpowered, or Hilde being less competitive?
Hmmmmmmmm.
tribaL
[09] Warrior
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
you take away that combo, or anything near it, and she just lost her most essential juggle. i'm pretty convinced that if you take that combo away, you're dropping her to low tier period. i mean, really, what other options would you have with her? you land a c3b, and juggle with... what exactly? she would do such a small amount of damage on her juggles that c3b would essentially become worthless considering the amount of time it takes to charge it in the first place.
and, for the record, she's not overpowered, you just don't know how to play against her. as hilde, if someone shuts down your charge game, it takes a lot of thinking and setup to make it become a factor again.
you take away that combo, or anything near it, and she just lost her most essential juggle. i'm pretty convinced that if you take that combo away, you're dropping her to low tier period. i mean, really, what other options would you have with her? you land a c3b, and juggle with... what exactly? she would do such a small amount of damage on her juggles that c3b would essentially become worthless considering the amount of time it takes to charge it in the first place.
and, for the record, she's not overpowered, you just don't know how to play against her. as hilde, if someone shuts down your charge game, it takes a lot of thinking and setup to make it become a factor again.
Ceirnian
[11] Champion
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
I find it hilarious that people think she would not be able to compete if her combo's were patched. Simply put, if the combo did not lead to ring out (or even being in a walled stage) and I am confident Hilde is still one of the best characters in the game. For all this talk of how predictable her charges can be, have you even considered that changing charge orders / charge cancelling (pressing b or a during a move, during a throw animation, during block etc so people can't tell what level of charge you have) / substituting faster moves in between gaps that people try to stop / amazing throw game (get into the habit of ducking and a world of pain awaits) / ability to step insanely well / ...
I could go on more but really, she has almost every tool in the game to compete and good answers for tons of situations. Her charges are a central part of her gameplay so saying she wouldn't be that great without them is a moot point. That's like saying if we took away stances from Siegfried he would be subpar. It doesn't work that way.
When this thread first popped up I honestly thought it was a joke thread that would stop before the end of the first page. The fact that it has gotten to 4 pages is pretty sad. Hilde is an extremely good character that as of now is probably the most powerful in the game. Something may displace this at a later time but for now this is what we get to deal with. I suggest that this thread be locked and someone open up an anti-Hilde thread that teaches people some of the ways to deal with her charge moves. When I say deal with I don't mean some ridiculous notion that they can all be gi'd on reaction everytime or that you can simply step everything with ease. You can indeed mention it, but also put in there which moves give + frames and which of the few moves she has that are unsafe. Maybe this knowledge will help those who are being destroyed by her. The anti-hilde thread over on Cf.com might still be around, that can be a good template for over here.
- Also a short note, I don't think using the ringout combos are a jackass thing to do against newer players. If they want to prevent me from playing my main character when I want, then I would prefer just not playing them at all. I think it's a show of respect on my part that I am willing to treat them as an adult rather than a child who needs to be coddled. That said, if the person is respectful and asks me to choose a different character in a casual setting then I will more than likely oblige unless I really do not want to play someone else at the moment.
I find it hilarious that people think she would not be able to compete if her combo's were patched. Simply put, if the combo did not lead to ring out (or even being in a walled stage) and I am confident Hilde is still one of the best characters in the game. For all this talk of how predictable her charges can be, have you even considered that changing charge orders / charge cancelling (pressing b or a during a move, during a throw animation, during block etc so people can't tell what level of charge you have) / substituting faster moves in between gaps that people try to stop / amazing throw game (get into the habit of ducking and a world of pain awaits) / ability to step insanely well / ...
I could go on more but really, she has almost every tool in the game to compete and good answers for tons of situations. Her charges are a central part of her gameplay so saying she wouldn't be that great without them is a moot point. That's like saying if we took away stances from Siegfried he would be subpar. It doesn't work that way.
When this thread first popped up I honestly thought it was a joke thread that would stop before the end of the first page. The fact that it has gotten to 4 pages is pretty sad. Hilde is an extremely good character that as of now is probably the most powerful in the game. Something may displace this at a later time but for now this is what we get to deal with. I suggest that this thread be locked and someone open up an anti-Hilde thread that teaches people some of the ways to deal with her charge moves. When I say deal with I don't mean some ridiculous notion that they can all be gi'd on reaction everytime or that you can simply step everything with ease. You can indeed mention it, but also put in there which moves give + frames and which of the few moves she has that are unsafe. Maybe this knowledge will help those who are being destroyed by her. The anti-hilde thread over on Cf.com might still be around, that can be a good template for over here.
- Also a short note, I don't think using the ringout combos are a jackass thing to do against newer players. If they want to prevent me from playing my main character when I want, then I would prefer just not playing them at all. I think it's a show of respect on my part that I am willing to treat them as an adult rather than a child who needs to be coddled. That said, if the person is respectful and asks me to choose a different character in a casual setting then I will more than likely oblige unless I really do not want to play someone else at the moment.
franman
[13] Hero
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
Initially when I was playing against a decent Hilde player I thought that her full ring-out combo deserves a ban. However, instead of complaining about it I'm thinking of ways to get around it. I do have some tough matches online and offline with her so my final decision for a soft ban on this remains undecided.
Initially when I was playing against a decent Hilde player I thought that her full ring-out combo deserves a ban. However, instead of complaining about it I'm thinking of ways to get around it. I do have some tough matches online and offline with her so my final decision for a soft ban on this remains undecided.
ShenYuan
[10] Knight
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
I think this statement is pretty accurate, but a more accurate picture would be " Hilde is a character with quite a lot of good, safe moves. Most people don't use these moves, because there are BETTER options from charges and these people are fond of binding"
i have nothing against people who bind and use almost nothing but charges. winning is what matters with hilde and tournies.
Ok that aside, with regards to some opinions about hilde losing a lot of edge if she doesnt have the combo...
Hilde is still very strong without her doom combo. She WILL remain very competitive... she'd probably fit in between A-B tier. A close to 80 damage safe mid option in a mixup? that is mighty good if you ask me. Its true that the mixup requires hilde to get really close, but because of her great range, and the absurd range of her whiff punisher, getting in becomes relatively easier.
with regards predictability of charges:
Charges are predictable if you make them predicatable.
If you face a hilde with binds, well there ain't much to predict in the first place IMO because there is a pretty high chance the hilde will always be charging anyway. And even if you predict a charge, and throw out.. lets say... some appropriate throws, with the break coinciding with the charge that is being held, she'd still be able to break it as easily as people who aren't holding down buttons. So whats there to predict... why predict the blatantly obvious.
If you face a strong hilde with no binds, well there is something to predict... like whether he is holding A or B. So you can assess the risk/reward ratio of the options you wanna employ. But it is not possible to predict the charges all the time. This is simply because a good hilde player who does not bind, is supposed to predict what will land in the next mixup oppurtunity, and only charge A or B when necessary. So how do you read whether your opponent thinks that a mid, low/throw or step killer will land the next time he gets to force a mixup ALL the time? We are not psychic.... So saying that people can predict the charges ALL the time is tantamount to saying that we are omniscient gods.
Personally, I don't see how mixing up charges can help you win high level games. I mean I really cant see a way to make charge moves work together to create a mindgame to hit people. there are no low charges or charge throws as far as i know. So yeah i don't understand what it means by 'charge game' (i gather that it means a mindgame created by a utilization of nothing but charge moves). The way i see it, charges have to work together with her normal moveset. Any hilde that plays 100% charges (or the 'charge game'... meaning with no use of lows, throws or pokes from her normal moveset) is probably going to be a bad hilde and a bad player.
However, I agree that its really being an ass to newer players to just murder then over and over with the RO combo. Usually I try to use a different character, or tone down a bit. Still, I try to avoid using hilde against them. I don't mind soft banning it during casuals.
I think this statement is pretty accurate, but a more accurate picture would be " Hilde is a character with quite a lot of good, safe moves. Most people don't use these moves, because there are BETTER options from charges and these people are fond of binding"
i have nothing against people who bind and use almost nothing but charges. winning is what matters with hilde and tournies.
Ok that aside, with regards to some opinions about hilde losing a lot of edge if she doesnt have the combo...
Hilde is still very strong without her doom combo. She WILL remain very competitive... she'd probably fit in between A-B tier. A close to 80 damage safe mid option in a mixup? that is mighty good if you ask me. Its true that the mixup requires hilde to get really close, but because of her great range, and the absurd range of her whiff punisher, getting in becomes relatively easier.
with regards predictability of charges:
Charges are predictable if you make them predicatable.
If you face a hilde with binds, well there ain't much to predict in the first place IMO because there is a pretty high chance the hilde will always be charging anyway. And even if you predict a charge, and throw out.. lets say... some appropriate throws, with the break coinciding with the charge that is being held, she'd still be able to break it as easily as people who aren't holding down buttons. So whats there to predict... why predict the blatantly obvious.
If you face a strong hilde with no binds, well there is something to predict... like whether he is holding A or B. So you can assess the risk/reward ratio of the options you wanna employ. But it is not possible to predict the charges all the time. This is simply because a good hilde player who does not bind, is supposed to predict what will land in the next mixup oppurtunity, and only charge A or B when necessary. So how do you read whether your opponent thinks that a mid, low/throw or step killer will land the next time he gets to force a mixup ALL the time? We are not psychic.... So saying that people can predict the charges ALL the time is tantamount to saying that we are omniscient gods.
Personally, I don't see how mixing up charges can help you win high level games. I mean I really cant see a way to make charge moves work together to create a mindgame to hit people. there are no low charges or charge throws as far as i know. So yeah i don't understand what it means by 'charge game' (i gather that it means a mindgame created by a utilization of nothing but charge moves). The way i see it, charges have to work together with her normal moveset. Any hilde that plays 100% charges (or the 'charge game'... meaning with no use of lows, throws or pokes from her normal moveset) is probably going to be a bad hilde and a bad player.
However, I agree that its really being an ass to newer players to just murder then over and over with the RO combo. Usually I try to use a different character, or tone down a bit. Still, I try to avoid using hilde against them. I don't mind soft banning it during casuals.
ThUmPeR956
[08] Mercenary
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
When i played against my first good Hilde players i was overwhelmed with the charges and would walk into them everytime, but the more i played her i noticed opening after charges and would attack when i had the chance im not saying all Hilde players use her the same but you have to play her as you would any other character watch and adapt to what she is doing. As for the RO combo i give mad props to any Hilde player that can use her good i tried picking her up and it was a very epic fail trying to remember the charge patterns hurt my brain:(. So for thos e of you getting mad about her charge combos just learn to stop walking into them and i would like to play any good Hilde players online sometime send me an invite if you would like to play some friendlys.
When i played against my first good Hilde players i was overwhelmed with the charges and would walk into them everytime, but the more i played her i noticed opening after charges and would attack when i had the chance im not saying all Hilde players use her the same but you have to play her as you would any other character watch and adapt to what she is doing. As for the RO combo i give mad props to any Hilde player that can use her good i tried picking her up and it was a very epic fail trying to remember the charge patterns hurt my brain:(. So for thos e of you getting mad about her charge combos just learn to stop walking into them and i would like to play any good Hilde players online sometime send me an invite if you would like to play some friendlys.
tribaL
[09] Warrior
Should Hilde Full Ring RO Combos = Banned?
ceir: i was talking about if the combo, in any form, didn't exist at all. not meaning that if they patched so it didn't ro, i mean if they patched it so that c3a's wouldn't combo into c2b's off of the high launches.
ceir: i was talking about if the combo, in any form, didn't exist at all. not meaning that if they patched so it didn't ro, i mean if they patched it so that c3a's wouldn't combo into c2b's off of the high launches.
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