Hilde Ban Discussion

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i agree with everyone that the C3 A is a great move, theres no doubt. Many characters have great moves, and i dont think the said move and it's follow ups (including the 'doom combo') are reasons to consider banning her. I could understand toning down the advantage after C3 A on block.

And STD, when exactly did this thread become a game to see how many periods one could put in a single post?
 
Don't think she should be banned, but saying "don't get hit" is a stupid argument. No character in the SC series has been able to easily ring out from the middle of the ring like she can. As mentioned, the risk/reward is WAY out of balance. It's fucking stupid and should definitely be nerfed when/if Namco makes another patch.

And why is this thread tagged with "pay_yo_bills" lol
 
runis... honestly.. i dotn' think this thread should even be open.. or a discussion should even be held.... it should be closed honestly.. why..

most people arguements are ....

1) if you wiff on a small stage.. game over.... but that also same applies to almost eveyone else in the game... if you wiff on a small stage you will also get ring o ut..... amy 33b...sophie...cass... yoshi.. ivy... lizard...etc.. etc...so the ring out game is not only in hildies favour... but she is however dominant in it....but THAT still doesn't change the game at all or break it...there are ring out's in the game.. and if you can use it.. than all the probs to you..and ti's not like hildie just stand there and instant ko you.. it's all up to the player and his skill to get you out..so the stage thing is not a big factor here.. it can break you or win for you...

2) too much frames advantages...but it is true that she has a lot of advantage moves.. but they are not broken to the point that they are more than 50/50...example hildie does charge lv 3b wich leaves her at a (+) frames... yes!!! than she does charge lv 3a right after....if you are cass .. you can do 1b... and interupt the a... or you can do 11b with cass... so even though she is at a (+) frames... it doesn't break the game at all because the core accpet of the system is still there 50/50 for both players.... and yes of course hildie can do some other moves after the lv 3b.... but than once again it is proving the fact that it is still 50/50... which sc is all about a 100% 50/50 game with high mid and lows....

this is most of the arguements that are being brought up... about hildie... but!! if you really look at it.. it isn't really much...her damage is high but not broken...100points is like ivy's jfcs... or appreantace jf move.....many people have 100point damage...sure her's can ring out and hit hard.. but than again so can asshy... so there is noting really broken here.. if you actually sit down and look at it... but hey.. what do i know ....hahaha .. and that is why i think it should be closed...T_T
 
STD, comments like yours are exactly why I wanted this thread open. We need people to see reasons both for and against the ban. It's only unfortunate that people are too busy insulting each other to discuss this properly. Yes there are reasons for why people think this thread is stupid and the topic shouldn't be discussed, but there are also people who think that the combo is ban worthy. Its no point saying "the ban is stupid - lock thread plix" without the opportunity to discuss why the ban shouldn't be implemented.
 
Tiamat said:
Funny thread. Everyone who supports banning it because "it's not fun" being hit by it: please go die in a fire.
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Agreed.

Ceirnian said:
Apparently I'm not good at the game and my character does all the work for me. Mmmm these tears are delicious.
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Arent they?

Tiamat said:
OH HO HO


you seem to have forgotten...that this is the soulcalibur community
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BA DUM CHING!

Also when is the Kilik thread going to be made so I can.... oh wait.
 
One combo, and this is what happens as an aftereffect? Ok....... um...... People need to go play SSBB. That is all.

To runis: Dude without that combo has does hlide get by?
 
CrazyYoshimitsu said:
One combo, and this is what happens as an aftereffect? Ok....... um...... People need to go play SSBB. That is all.

To runis: Dude without that combo has does hlide get by?
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Agreed, then we can all have fun playing SC4 without them.

-When it comes to Hilde getting by I honestly don't think she needs the combo. I've been caught off guard by worse. Yet I remain neutral on what side of the fence to stand because I like to fight Hilde above other characters and don't mind the challenge of getting past a person that spams it.
 
CY: Hilde in my opinion has tools to win even if the doom combo didn't RO like it does. The only reason people don't use all the other tricks she has is because her Risk-Reward on Charge combos is so much better. That and no one techs against her since her Oki damage doesn't warrant falling for her tech traps.
 
I can understand what you saying man. But to m everytime the doom combo hits me, I always blame it on myself. Trust me even if I know it coming, I get still end up getting shoot up into the air. It like no matter what you do you're going into the air no questions ask.

Rockman: How sure are you about that?
 
STD said:
runis... honestly.. i dotn' think this thread should even be open.. or a discussion should even be held.... it should be closed honestly.. why..

most people arguements are ....

1) if you wiff on a small stage.. game over.... but that also same applies to almost eveyone else in the game... if you wiff on a small stage you will also get ring o ut..... amy 33b...sophie...cass... yoshi.. ivy... lizard...etc.. etc...so the ring out game is not only in hildies favour... but she is however dominant in it....but THAT still doesn't change the game at all or break it...there are ring out's in the game.. and if you can use it.. than all the probs to you..and ti's not like hildie just stand there and instant ko you.. it's all up to the player and his skill to get you out..so the stage thing is not a big factor here.. it can break you or win for you...

2) too much frames advantages...but it is true that she has a lot of advantage moves.. but they are not broken to the point that they are more than 50/50...example hildie does charge lv 3b wich leaves her at a (+) frames... yes!!! than she does charge lv 3a right after....if you are cass .. you can do 1b... and interupt the a... or you can do 11b with cass... so even though she is at a (+) frames... it doesn't break the game at all because the core accpet of the system is still there 50/50 for both players.... and yes of course hildie can do some other moves after the lv 3b.... but than once again it is proving the fact that it is still 50/50... which sc is all about a 100% 50/50 game with high mid and lows....

this is most of the arguements that are being brought up... about hildie... but!! if you really look at it.. it isn't really much...her damage is high but not broken...100points is like ivy's jfcs... or appreantace jf move.....many people have 100point damage...sure her's can ring out and hit hard.. but than again so can asshy... so there is noting really broken here.. if you actually sit down and look at it... but hey.. what do i know ....hahaha .. and that is why i think it should be closed...T_T
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I'll play devil's advocate here. Again, these are not necessarily MY opinions per se, but the other side's point.

1. I have indeed utilized Ivy's RO game and have seen an excellent Asty's RO game, so RO's isn't exactly exclusive to Hilde even on the high levels. BUT, what makes Hilde "broken" is that she can throw these RO attempts not only constantly, but with little risk. We get back again at her risk-reward scenario. Ivy's RO moves are all unsafe, easily steppable; thus, you WILL get punished on block/whiff. Astaroth's RO game, while fast, is also unsafe. Simple example would be Bull rush; the non-charged fast version of this is very unsafe on block. His RO throws can not only be broken, but can be ducked as well; thus avoiding the RO and awarded with a lot of frames for punishment.

In short, the average character can have an excellent ringout game, but the opposing player facing the RO attempt has the opportunity to step, evade or otherwise counterattack and punish an RO attempt.

Hilde, however, has little risk constantly going for the RO attempt. All of her charges are advantage on block, and I don't think I need to mention C3A's godliness again. But the Hilde player can CONSTANTLY use this with little to no fear of being counterattacked. This pressure is heavily tipped to Hilde's favor unlike for any other character's RO game, which is personally what I can see as imbalanced.

2. Her decent charges (all but one of them actually) give an average of around +3-4 on block. A smart Hilde player will not ALWAYS go for consecutive charge attacks (at least Ceirnian doesn't) and will go for safe moves after a charge, throw, or otherwise mix it up. So you're looking at an i16 charge, an i8-10 2A/B/A/7_8K or an i13-14 throw as a Hilde's options after the advantage charge. I'd like to see a character who can outspeed Hilde at i8-10. 2A/A/B/7_8K-ing you to death is the safest move according to frames, and no character has a decent answer to it.

In short, blocking does not save you from the mixup (or lack thereof the mixup since Hilde's so safe that she doesn't need to use it), and the risk/reward for attempting to interrupt her second move is heavily stacked against Hilde's opponent. Combined this with the potential of every charge being a potential RO attempt really gives Hilde all but the kitchen sink in mounting an offensive assault and attack.

3. Yes, every character has the potential for 100 or more damage. But these come from UNSAFE moves as the beginning setup. When these startup moves are avoided (or the move themselves, like iCS), the character is pretty unsafe enough for punishment. Hilde, again, is quite the opposite.

In other words, dealing 100 damage presents little to no risk to the Hilde player.

_________________________________

I'll have to give a counterargument though; one can say that simply tightening your defenses exceptionally when facing a Hilde is a good counterstrategy on its own; one that I can agree with.
 
STD said:
runis... honestly.. i dotn' think this thread should even be open.. or a discussion should even be held.... it should be closed honestly.. why..

most people arguements are ....

1) if you wiff on a small stage.. game over.... but that also same applies to almost eveyone else in the game... if you wiff on a small stage you will also get ring o ut..... amy 33b...sophie...cass... yoshi.. ivy... lizard...etc.. etc...so the ring out game is not only in hildies favour... but she is however dominant in it....but THAT still doesn't change the game at all or break it...there are ring out's in the game.. and if you can use it.. than all the probs to you..and ti's not like hildie just stand there and instant ko you.. it's all up to the player and his skill to get you out..so the stage thing is not a big factor here.. it can break you or win for you...
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Okay, you're wrong here for a lot of reasons. First is that she doesn't just need a small stage to do this stuff, most any stage will do. Second, It's not just about whiffing on a small stage, it also comes from easy punishment and just fishing to interrupt. Third, none of those characters you listed have anything comparable to what she can do from the MIDDLE of the stage. (Sidenote: you listed lizardman in there?? what is it you think he can do for a longrange ringout?)

Fourth, you say there are ringouts in the game, but don't you realize that they are there to make fighting by the edge more dangerous, not fighting from center stage?? If fighting Hilde from the center is the same as fighting Hilde at the ring edge, then there is no point in even having a ring edge: the whole stage becomes one. That completely breaks the game mechanic and purpose of a ring edge.

Fifth, "so the stage thing is not a big factor here.. it can break you or win for you..." - these two statements completely contradict.

You know, the argument can still be made that 101 damage off an i20 safe launcher bread-and-butter combo, with no just frames involved, is still kinda broke. Some people even suggest banning shoulder binding entirely, rendering hilde's practically unable to break command throws or fight with A's and B's while charging them. All I've suggested is putting her on a walled stage to keep a 42% combo from going 100% every other time someone gets hit, and even that is like pulling teeth around here. Pretty sad
 
I have no idea. Do you think people read threads before they reply?

I guess it didn't fly, huh? I wouldn't mind, really.
 
Fuzion said:
Some people even suggest banning shoulder binding entirely, rendering hilde's practically unable to break command throws or fight with A's and B's while charging them.
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I am still skeptical about how much this actually matters. If you are fighting Asta doing JF grabs or something, yeah it would matter. Otherwise you only gonna lose like a frame or two for releasing the button then pressing it again. Every other character you allow shoulder binds but not hilde is just silly. You might as well give her a health handicap while you're at it.


About picking stages:
Stage select is supposed to be RANDOM. Limiting Hilde to fighting only on certain stages is about as close to the Craftsmen approach as you can get, smash brothers anyone? What happens from there? Do we start forcing people to pick small RO stages vs Zas so he doesn't suck so much?


Here is the truth: Some character in this game is gonna be top tier, and the only problem is that you guys don't want it to be a new character. If Kilik was a new character he would probably be banned already. So Serious.
 
I really don't get why when something is good in this game people get all pissy and start declaring for ban/nerfs. I mean the op of this thread said that he made a room and Hilde was kicking everybody's ass. First off this was clearly some online gaming....so what the hell does it really matter who ass was being beat or not. I know this comment was said before on a prior thread but if all this "banning" keeps at it the game is eventually going to just turn into a game with a bunch of characters with all kinds of limited and crappy options. Please get off the damn SC4 online before you start throwing out things like that ban him/her or this is cheap.

As for Hilde I like her a lot and yes I use her. But there is much more to her than just her doom combo, which I may remind is character specific. All of her CB moves are easily stepped and easily GI'ed if your paying attention, don't forget she practically throws out a warning signal before the move. Its not like she is X or something and can just raise her spear and be like for the shennanigans of wolfrkrone!! and hop into another move. Then for the + frames on her charges moves. This can only be used so much, I would hope that if you continually throw out C1 2 or 3 so much to keeping getting +'s that your opponent would eventually catch on and throw a faster move out, GI at the right time or hell even just block.....yes that works too....( omg who knew).

Pretty much, Hilde or in fact any other character, isn't so incredibly Godlike that you cannot do anything to beat them EVER! So instead of screaming BAN, try thinking, remaining calm, find out why your loosing and try to overcome your opponent with the tools that your selected character(s) have at your disposal. If you continue to loose after that, practice more and make sure you know why you were loosing. Loosing won't do you any good if you don't understand why you were loosing and neither will thinking that " if only this/he/she was banned I wouldn't suck anymore"
 
The fact that this is even being discussed is a joke. >_>

I have played very good Hilde players both online and offline, mainly using Talim and Lizardman, and not once have I felt that it was impossibly hard to win or extremely unfair, yes even on seesaw (which I always purposely choose when I fight a Hilde in casuals). She just requires a specific approach, and patience.

Hilde on seesaw or whatever other RO stage, Algol, Yoda, Bonus characters, asura dance, all these are not even close to being worthy of a ban.

It sad to see that the people that can't handle these things go screaming "BAN!" rather than learning how to fight them, because they ALL can be dealt with, and won't be affecting the end results of high level tournament play by much.

And them slightly unbalancing the game isn't a good reason to ban them or even put a soft ban, sure they might not be perfectly balanced, but they don't severely imbalance the game either to the point of there being a need to ban. They can all be dealt with.
 
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