ShaolinTiger86
[13] Hero
Then everyone would be immortal, cutting off each other's heads, talking about there could be only one, and claiming the prize? Not sure if that would work.
If there was a Soul Calibur VI, prequel/sequel/reboot/retcon?
- Thread starter HiguraShiki
- Start date
How about those that are descendants and those that are immortal. Like if Siegfried was imprisoned in crystallized form, he'd be somehow reawakened by soul calibur to fight Soul Edge in that time.
And if Soul Edge returned, it'd be in the possession of some frankenstein's creature that is mutated by the sword.
ShaolinTiger86
[13] Hero
Well, that could work...but when mentioned Highlander, I already had that premonition of a gathering where fighters lop each others' heads off for the ultimate prize (or in this case fighting Soul Edge or Soul Calibur).
jtdam09
[13] Hero
European at most. Since SC likes to tie some historical points into the storyline, there is a huge chance that Setsuka might be Portuguese. Changing her name to "Neve", which is snow in Portuguese (and Italian), was too much of a coincidence as well.
But nonetheless, PS does not take the language barrier too far in this game. Just because she's Portuguese doesn't mean that she can't interact with those of other countries. Somehow Siegfried was able to do this with Patroklos. Better yet, Patroklos was able to do this with the Asian group.
Natsu might be European too, but who knows where her family origins came from, so I'm just going to say that she's "Eurasian".
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Thats the first thing you should have asked since you couldn't grasp it in the first place.
1. Patroklus is the poster boy of the game. He had an original moveset and he also has a separate soul calibur enhanced one.
2. All of the storyline prior to SC5, setsuka was irrelevant to the soul calibur and soul edge story. To sum it up, she's after mitsurugi. That makes her the least connected. Mitsurugi at least least directly looking for soul edge at one point. I would also likely complain if alpha patroklus really had mitsurugi's gameplay, but that is beside the point and poor counter-example you gave.
3. The story seems contrived that patroklus' "secret" and "true" technique was something he picked up from setsuka from some random wandering in istanbul. It's also contrived that the character possessing soul calibur would be using setsuka's style. This is pretty good evidence that gameplay style nostaglia leads into story in this case.
If when seigfried picks up soul edge the first time in soul blade, and he starts using his secret and true technique he learned from some other person, how much sense would that make ?
If when nightmare splitted from seigfried in SC3 and then reverted to another different movestyle, how much sense would that make ?
If when zasalamel turned into abyss, and he changed his moveset drastically, how much sense would that make ?
I'm trying to lay it out as clear as possible for you and I'm not a big fan of looking up each char
Thats the complete opposite of what i'm talking about. The fact that she has a filler storyline makes it especially distasteful. If it turned out she was the one in SC4 to defeat algol, then maybe her style would be worth learning and soul calibur would justified take that form.
Then how can you possibly debate any point when you don't understand what the other party is proposing and you fail to grasp its merits ? You can't tell someone that it doesn't defend their point of view when you don't even know what they are talking about in the first place unless your goal is to look stupid over the internet.
darkwings13
[14] Master
The only 'story' reasoning I can possibly come up for why Set's style is Patty Cake true style is this.
Along with the style, Setsuka must have taught him that the path of vengeance is not the right one. Her style was taught to him for the reason of self-defense as well as fighting for what's right. Pat must have told his sensei that he had a missing sister so Set would have want him to use her style to protect his sister, while she was unable to protect her teacher that was slain by Mitsu. Setsuka's style and teaching came from her heart to Patroklos and was intended to help him follow the right path.
But of course, he was determined on being a hot head and continue to hate the malfested and seek revenge. Not listening to Setsuka's words or teaching, he probably bury it away and decided to not use her style since it'll only remind him of her words. Instead, to remind himself of the mother he never really knew but idolize, he took up the sword and shield style to remind himself of his mother's death and convince himself that the path of vengeance was right. (Malfested should die. Justice! Rarw! Pale and Filthy! Etc)
Comparing the laido style that was taught by Setsuka (who tied in battle against Mitsurugi), or a S&S style that he must have forced himself to learn to keep faking to himself about vengeance, the laido style would have been more powerful; especially after Zwei's lecture when Pat accepts his sister as a malfested and his master's words. Before, Pat just didn't want to listen to Setsuka's truth so he didn't use it.
As for Soul Calibur, the sword is affected by the will of the user. The wielder wields the sword, not the other way around. So if Patroklos decides to use Setsuka's style, the sword would change for him. Course, it still manipulated him to kill his sister until he realized his mistake and time travel. Now that... is a bigger flaw in the story than anything else in my opinion. :/
I don't know if I made sense to you WuHT. But I hope it's relevant to your post. (>;^_^)
And due to short story mode, yea, I'm just sorta blindly connecting the dots to try and make the most legible picture possible.
Ramus
[14] Master
I will reply in the order of your reply.
Soul Calibur takes the form that suits most the user Patroklos is not the first person to use it, he was living a lie while using S&S, the fact they didn't got new styles is more design wise and the fact in that games with new Night and Abyss had a full cast.
The only reason why Mitsurugi is popular is because every badass gets a huge fanbase, in the end of the day not counting Setsuka, put Mitsurugi out of Soul Calibur no damage going to be computed for story, along with Algol none of those two even existed for the rest of the cast.
Your central argument was Patroklos getting a style of a irrelevant character that had nothing to do with the story, so she not being around doesn't matter.
By the way...using personal offenses is just a way to try to avoid the attention is a really low way of tray make the person that is trying to counter your points withdraw.
Soul Calibur takes the form that suits most the user Patroklos is not the first person to use it, he was living a lie while using S&S, the fact they didn't got new styles is more design wise and the fact in that games with new Night and Abyss had a full cast.
The only reason why Mitsurugi is popular is because every badass gets a huge fanbase, in the end of the day not counting Setsuka, put Mitsurugi out of Soul Calibur no damage going to be computed for story, along with Algol none of those two even existed for the rest of the cast.
Your central argument was Patroklos getting a style of a irrelevant character that had nothing to do with the story, so she not being around doesn't matter.
By the way...using personal offenses is just a way to try to avoid the attention is a really low way of tray make the person that is trying to counter your points withdraw.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Its right there in the storyline.
Again, its common knowledge project soul was undermanned and didnt have enough time.
Don't spin this into a anti-mitsurugi story. Just to show how obvious my point is, you exactly proved my point that no mitsurugi in SC = no setsuka in SC and therefore she is a total fringe character. Amy and cassandra are pretty much the only other characters who suffer from relationships like this. Also I emphasized the least. Not the 2nd least or the 3rd least, but the absolute. If you can prove that mitsurugi
Setsuka isn't in SC5 and again you're going off on a tangent. Please quote me where I saidthat Setsuka should be back otherwise you're just sidetracking The question you should actually address is what does that have to do with the fact that Alpha Patroklus's moveset is hers? Its a very weak storyline and this is a good case of gameplay nostaglia leading storyline in priority. You could bring up points about how there was no time for a new moveset, or that all the worthwhile existing movesets were already on available SC5 characters. Instead you say "well mitsu's not important to the story too". Thats why its clear you have no clue what I am talking about.
I'm glad you read that particular paragraph, but yet you still fail to restate that
"understanding is not = having solid evidence".
You've consistently replying with text, but there is minimal actual content that has anything to do with the point. I'm spending less time debating the original topic and more time trying to fill in the holes in your "counter-points".
Yeah they'll always have a reason for why soul calibur took this form. If you could speak to yourself when you started SC4, and then tell yourself that "When the main hero gets soul calibur, he doesn't keep anything simliar to his current moveset, but rather he acquires setsuka's moveset" you are telling me you wouldn't be surprised?
darkwings13
[14] Master
Lol I would be very surprised if that's what you want to know. But Pat did keep his S&S style when he obtain the sword. It was only afterwards that he changed it to his 'true' style. I'll be honest and say that again, it's the wielder choice. Perhaps something similar to Edgemaster, how he knows all weapon styles but he can choose to wield which one he wants to use. If he obtained SC, he can pick so why not Pat?
I don't like the reasoning PS gave for why Pat took on Set's style as the true one, to be honest. All I can do is try to make some sense of it really. Call me the theory girl, that's just what I do lol. It could just be a decision based on Daishi's fondness for the style that he quickly put it into the story and tried to give credibility, but all I do is try to make some sense of that credibility, even if it's foggy as hell. So for now, my only reasoning is that her style and her words/teachings is the one that really touched Pat's soul (that's real cheesy sorry), while the S&S is something fake that he forces himself into taking up, so that's why Setsuka's style is the true one for Patty Cake.
jtdam09
[13] Hero
I wonder what will happen when Patroklos finds out that Sophitia killed herself to "save" Pyrrha, though she really didn't save her. She just gave her "character development".
Ramus
[14] Master
"Going out of my house is dangerous so I will never get out" You get the point? Yes, it is a solid one? no.
The name of the game is Soul Calibur the fact the hero got this weapon is just logical, Patroklos is somewhat a orphan he having her's movelist is basically to remember us that he is a orphan that like was talented with swords.
Did I touch a never there?
Mitsurugi original concept was very good but faded in the legendary warrior that nobody touches.
By your logic No Sophitia means no Cassandra, Patroklos, Pyrrha and no development for Tira
No Rock no Astaroth since Rock was Astaroth model.
No Lizardman no Astaroth again since Lizardmen kidnapped Baagon that made the cult meet Rock that made Asta after him.
No Kilik and X no Leixia and Xiba.
True is the characters styles would appear soon or late.
jtdam09
[13] Hero
So I guess you were typing aggressively when you did this?
I'm just going to say what's on my mind with this one, or based on what I
Setsuka-Relied heavily on the concepts of revenging her master and "Mitsurugi" as her plot device. That's the "literal" reason as to why she is in the game and the storyline. Both her debut and SCIV. She didn't care at all about the weapons like the rest of the characters do, nor did she care about the other characters in the roster. Mitsurugi may have spent most of his game appearances trying to find challenging opponents, but he wanted Soul Edge as a way to make himself more powerful, just like Yun-Seong was with obtaining them so he could win the Korean War (Hwang's motive at first in SE). Apparently Mitsurugi changes his mind from time to time. Either way, after Setsuka defeats Mitsurugi and has no desire of avenging her master, her plot device is gone, and if she returned, she would probably just be there.
Yes without Sophitia, Patroklos and Pyrrha would not be born, but without Tira, and Sophitia's death, neither of these two would have a plot device, or a motivation to obtain these swords, unless PS somehow found a way to do so. Patroklos is the one affected by it the most, because that was his whole reason for wanting to seek "justice". To avenge his mother against the malfested. He knew that SC would be responsible at stopping it.
Either way, you're pretty much saying "without "a", there would be no "b"". That is an obvious yes by the examples you listed. Well, if Mitsurugi didn't kill her master, she wouldn't even be seen in this game. Of course they may have given her something different when she debuted, but this was what PS came up with, and unfortunately they have to run with that reflecting her as a character. You're using rather vague cause-and-effects as your argument which in itself, doesn't support what you are REALLY trying to say, which was Setsuka being in SCV and not Alpha Patroklos, or Alpha Patroklos even using her style in the first place.
As much as it was a horrible decision, after looking at the story mode,
WuHT
Premium Moderator
So we're going to spend time picking apart each other's semantics rather than the argument ? Not even sure it'll amount to anything, considering I had to reply to you like 4 times.
My point is that Alpha Pat ended up with a veteran's movelist, and that is especially unacceptable because project soul slapped on the most absolute irrelevant one. Your only reply is that there are others that are somewhat irrelevant, which again is proof that you have no clue what I am talking about.
I gave examples of why Setsuka is the least relevant, as more eloquently explained in jtdam09's post. If you're going to spin in circles about how other characters are irrelevant as well, then don't be surprised if people call you out.
Don't bother trying to say other veterans are not important to the storyline because i'm dealing with the absolute most irrelevant one.
Read Jtdam's post.
Would you like further reading to inform yourself ?
Ramus
[14] Master
I just gave your the example that you asked when you told me that I failed to give.
Oh no, not at all was just a little funny because of a thing I read long ago in the SC BR community that was similar to the reaction of WuHT.
Ok I will write down my answer for both.
Patroklos is the empty jar that was perfect to get another movelist, the design to fit that weapon is not a easy one because is dangerous to become a cliche of Japanese traveler yada yada, Patroklos gets a boost in his charisma looking cool with two versions, story wise this was put to Patroklos overcome the fact that he wanted to be his mother, he was the perfect fool to get her's move.
DevilsDisguise
[13] Hero
Thats all just an assumption though. If that is true why wouldnt this happen to Maxi first hand? He's japanese and looking for revenge for the past 4 games? and how could it be that she meets Patrolklos over Maxi when he and Setsuka are from japan? It doesn't make sense. You can't rationlize what didn't actually happen.
So he dropped a style he originally learned to self-teach himself his mother's style only to drop it too? C'mon. It makes more sense for him to just use the sword and shield.
Then the statement of the Sword being controlled by the user isnt true. Soul calibur was created from Soul edge right? So it would work the same but its only percieved by the characters to be the good sword when it really isn't. It too is slowly getting tainted by blood and the evil power of soul edge every time it breaks it.
Her being European is more then obvious but being blonde with Asian blood isnt possible. Though if youre going to say in farther ancestory that would be even less likely concedering how PS concieved her on the spot.
jtdam09
[13] Hero
If it doesn't constitute as "Eurasian", it does constitute as her at least being a Japanese native with European ethnicity. This is unless she was born someplace else.
Xernuht
[12] Conqueror
Considering that Maxi tends to end up traveling with Kilik and Xianghua, it would likely place him in China during the 17-year gap... and does it really make more sense for Setsuka to meet Maxi over Patroklos, especially since MAXI DEFEATED ASTAROTH?
A lot of Darkwing's post covers this. If Setsuka really was pushing for Pat to drop his desire for revenge, and he does see her as a surrogate mother of sorts, he's not going to use a weapon or style that would only remind him of her every time he kills a malfested for the sake of justice. Also, he likely also made the switch as a "karma's a bitch" statement to Sophie's murderer.
Well, that is the issue... kinda. From what I understand, Soul Calibur and Soul Edge are both domineering SOB's, but they do their work through their wielder's minds. What's the best way to do so? Through something familiar, like through your preferred weapon type. There are occasions where the swords choose a wielder or lock in a style, but they are rare. SC just took on a short sword shape for Pat early on because he was using the S&S style on his malfested hunts, and later on switched to a katana to prey upon his memories of both of his mothers: Sophitia as Elysium, and Setsuka through his sword and the memories of being told to protect what you love most.
darkwings13
[14] Master
Xernuht covered the previous points for me so I don't really have anything to add. But I can't really understand what you're trying to say in the first part about Maxi anyway. I can add to the last part though.
The swords can be controlled by the wielder for sure. Algol demonstrated that since he was the only person to wield SE without being influenced by it. Since SC was created from purified shards of SE, they have the similarity of using their wielders/causing them harm. SE powers causes insanity and warps the body monstrously. SC powers eventually freezes its wielder and also ends up controlling its wielders.
In the opening of SCV, we see Siggy's eyes glow blue as ice covers his arm. He regains his will when some ice shatters. Anyway, Pyrrha was able to control SE to free her brother since her love and will to save her bro protected her from its powers. So yea, the swords can be wielded by individuals with a strong will; Algol and Pyrrha.
I don't know if SC is becoming more tainted and evil though. Throughout the series, everyone believes SC was good and it only shows SE being evil. I like the direction SCV is taking since it clearly shows SC is a fake holy sword. So in my opinion, it was always like this but the story just never showed its dark side. Only Kilik and Talim seemed to have an inkling on both swords personality. Cassy did, but only in her ending.
ShaolinTiger86
[13] Hero
Little by little, I'm starting to believe that SC is becoming evil, almost like another Soul Edge but trying to pass itself off as a holy sword, which in fact was the Krita-Yuga. I understand that SC was created from a shard of Soul Edge and was made to be the polar opposite but what about the Krita Yuga? Now I see why Kilik wanted to neutralize both their powers in order for the swords to not exist, and how Talim knew about both swords' intentions. And as for the Krita-Yuga, couldn't it be a holy artifact by itself, and not having to hide in the Ling Sheng Su Temple? I guess it wouldn't since it was a holy artifact used to defeat Soul Edge.
Pyrrus
[14] Master
Since Soul Calibur was made from Soul Edge they both are pretty ruthless in their objectives. However, Soul Edge doesn't try to fool anyone, it tells you pretty bluntly, " I want you to kill this person so I can benefit from it by eating their souls". While Soul Calibur is much more devious ( at least to me). Here's what I mean:
Soul Calibur pretended to be Patroklos's dead mom in order to get Patroklos to agree to kill his sister. Of course his mind was easily clouded and he didn't even stop to think, "hey my mom wants me to kill her daughter!". We could say that he was just so amazed to see his long lost mother and totally ignored what she said. But I decided to think about it a little bit deeper. What if Soul calibur actually clouds your mind from thinking straight? Soul Edge destroys the wielder's mind, what if Soul Calibur has a similar effect?
Maybe I'm thinking too much about it :/ I hope you guys understand what I'm trying to say. ( sorry if I didn't explain it too well >.<)