jG Implications for Maxi

[ArmLegLegArmHead]

I think with the increase in game speed and what looks like faster stance cancelling and transitioning it won't be as bad as it could have been. Plus it will take some meter. I guess it will come down to how opponents play our maxi. A lot of times I establish uninteruptable strings early so they wait for the next option anyway.

I honestly don't like the feature either. We will see about this different properties for each move stuff.

I forgot to say when i was watching the video of kayane's interview taki is doing 3KKK and i think on the second K it gets JGed but the next kick seemed to come out quick enough that voldo couldnt capitalize. I could be wrong and voldo JGed the first K and i know that string comes out faster than maxi's stance transition moves but maybe thats what they were talking about different properties for certain moves.

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

Daishi tweeted this:

​

@ Daishi_CaliburDaishi Odashima

Just Guard: Just Guarding big attacks will give more frame advantage than small attacks.
thats good to know that the frame advantage will be different for different attacks. Maxi is still in it!
HRD

 

[Uber1337]

is that just because big attacks typically have more recovery time and therefore avoiding the blockstun will yield more advantage?

 

[KingAce]

If the mechanic rewards better players then what's the problem?

Go into practice and test how many times you can JI an unblockable. Hell test how many times you can JI any of Maxi's strings.

How good is your JI?

Also the game has Soul Guage damage, apparently this doesn't mean anything to some of you.

 

[Uber1337]

why do people keep comparing this to JI? GIing has a risk. jG doesn't. If you do it right, you get rewarded. If you do it wrong, you don't get punished. And i realize people aren't gonna option select jG everytime. But the better players will most definitely be able to hit it 25-50% of the time with practice, which is enough to take Maxi out of top level play. There are just so many opportunities for a guessed jG against Maxi due to the nature of his playstyle.

And its not the fact that the jG rewards better players that's my problem. The problem is that the concept of jG works against certain characters more than others. For poke based characters, whatever, who cares. They can still just pull up on their attacks and punish defensive jG reliant players. Maxi does not have that luxury. His moves lead to stances that have only a few options, which are much more easy to predict a jG against.

Soul gauge damage could be our saving grace. If they made his soul guage damage good enough, it might be possible that it would outweigh the handicap Maxi has from jG. I seriously doubt this will be the case though due to the balance problems it would cause at lower level play.

I know i'm being pessimistic about this, but i'm just really worried Maxi's gonna get screwed on this. I truly hope I'm wrong.

 

[KingAce]

why do people keep comparing this to JI? GIing has a risk. jG doesn't. If you do it right, you get rewarded. If you do it wrong, you don't get punished.

And its not the fact that the jG rewards better players that's my problem. The problem is that the concept of jG works against certain characters more than others. For poke based characters, whatever, who cares. They can still just pull up on their attacks and punish defensive jG reliant players. Maxi does not have that luxury. His moves lead to stances that have only a few options, which are much more easy to predict a jG against.

This is the problem I have with so many people against JG...you can't analyze shit.
And you can't read the evolution of the meta-game worth a damn.

We're not comparing the rewards of JI with JG. We're emphasized the timing. The 2 frame timing. Which makes timing JI and JG very difficult and inconsistent.

Second the reward of JG is also inconsistent. How you capatilize on JG is going to be different for every move.

So that means some times the +frames you gain from it might be so small that your reaction to profit from it might be too late. You might just attack straight into your opponents string.

Third, I have already said this some where in the Maxi forum. One of the more obvious reasons Maxi has such horrible frames in SC4, is because of Soul Gauge damage. Yes JG functions best against strings, but consider that Maxi has better frames in SCV. That makes his soul guage damage kinda retarded. JG functions as a small counter to this.

Considering that Maxi can delay, cancel and mix up high, mid or low...The timings for defending with JG are all over the place. Why would a smart player just seat around guarding... risking soul gauge damage, missing interrupt/gi/sidestep/TC opportunities just to block punish something?

You should be more worried about the HML GI.

 

[Uber1337]

Considering that Maxi can delay, cancel and mix up high, mid or low...The timings for defending with JG are all over the place. Why would a smart player just seat around guarding... risking soul gauge damage, missing interrupt/gi/sidestep/TC opportunities just to block punish something?

You should be more worried about the HML GI.

2 frames. so what. Its still gonna happen more than you seem to think. People will practice this. Much more then they practice jGIing things. And they don't have to hit it every time, if they can even get to 15% of the time it could become a major problem in competitive play.

Yes he can delay. In fact, he will HAVE to delay EVERY SINGLE TIME to be safe against better players. But he will not get any reward for this, he will still be guarded.

Cancelling is not really a good counter to jG in stance. Unless they make his stance cancels retardly fast, he's not gonna be able to capitalize on a successful bait in most cases.

And since when did Maxi have a high, mid, low game in stance? RC K and BL KK are easily blockable on reaction and BL B does crap damage but is fast (this move is actually one of the most effected by jG). Seriously, the only threatening low he's ever had was 2A+B in SCIII, and I seriously doubt they give him that move back. Plus, its not a stance move so it's not even really part of this conversation.

I am actually not worried about the HML GI at all. Maxi's strategy against GI has always been delays. This will not be affected by the new GI.

And his soul gauge damage was decent in SC4. Not nearly on voldo level or anything. He couldn't even really capitalize on his Soul Gauge damage much either at competitive play because if they were blocking that much, Maxi was getting punished too much and would die first. Most of his good soul gauge tools were either unsafe or the set-up that allowed them to land was unsafe. jG seems like it will create the same exact problem. It's gonna create too many punishment opportunities to capitalize on his soul gauge strength.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

I agree with Uber1337

JG will happen much more often than PGI did. It´s just logical ´cause it´s almost no risk at all(just block late).

You´ll either JG or block. So what?

But with GI it was always a different story...

 

[KingAce]

This is a waste of time. It's like you're choosing to ignore the facts set out infront of you...or maybe you can't analyze the information properly.

It's in the game, deal with it.

 

[JAGTHEGEMINI]

This is a waste of time. It's like you're choosing to ignore the facts set out infront of you...or maybe you can't analyze the information properly.

It's in the game, deal with it.

I can deal with it, but i think it will be much more gameplay changing than GI/PGI ever was.

 

[Saitoh]

I agree with Uber1337

JG will happen much more often than PGI did. It´s just logical ´cause it´s almost no risk at all(just block late).

You´ll either JG or block. So what?

But with GI it was always a different story...

Jag, I really think JG is more risky than people assume. I said that already in another thread but you'll have to RELEASE the G button to attempt a JG most of the time. That simple fact alone mean that the "JG is no risk" trend I see on 8wayrun is probably wrong.

Also, assuming that a JG attempt will always end with early block or JG is overestimating players reaction. Sometimes they will block too late and take a hit.

 

[Reave]

I don't think JG will make Maxi completely irrelevent if the type of move dictates how many frames get shaved off coupled with the speed of his transitions being on par with 66B4G LI K.

 

[Uber1337]

This is a waste of time. It's like you're choosing to ignore the facts set out infront of you...or maybe you can't analyze the information properly.

It's in the game, deal with it.

Lol. You come in here with an extremely limited knowledge of how Maxi actually plays against competent players and yet you just keep saying, "its ok, its ok, you guys don't know what you're talking about". You throw out absurd reasons why it will be fine and then when you get those ideas shot down you just say that people don't know how to analyze things.
I would love to play your Maxi, i'm sure I would wipe the floor with you. I played Maxi through the entire lifespan of this game, and against good players that actually know how to punish Maxi. I really do know what I'm talking about and these are legitimate concerns.

Now you can say this is pointless because jG is going to be in the game no matter what. This is partially true. jG is most definitely going to be in the game, but voicing our concerns is not pointless. The developers can still take measures to ensure that our fears don't come true. According to Kayane's demo review, the Maxi in that game still seemed pretty much the same as before. That could mean that SCV Maxi is still a work in progress. Hopefully someone at the development team will see this thread and take these concerns into consideration when they are doing the final balance touches on Maxi.

There are still some ways that these weaknesses can be avoided:

1) They could up soul gauge damage so that he is a gauge damage type character. As I said before, i doubt this will be the solution due to balance issues at lower level play.

2) Make his damage really high. Again, balance issues at lower level play so probably not.

3) Give him a lot more safe exits out of stance moves. If his key stance moves had enough frame advantage or the jG effect was small enough that jG did not allow a free punish. This is hopefully the case.

4) Give Maxi more built in follow-ups on stance moves (similar to RO AK) so that opponents will not be able to attack right after a jG without risk of eating a follow-up. This is also a reasonable solution that should not affect lower level play.

Jag, I really think JG is more risky than people assume. I said that already in another thread but you'll have to RELEASE the G button to attempt a JG most of the time. That simple fact alone mean that the "JG is no risk" trend I see on 8wayrun is probably wrong.

Also, assuming that a JG attempt will always end with early block or JG is overestimating players reaction. Sometimes they will block too late and take a hit.

Thats weird. From my understanding (and seemingly everyone else's), you DO NOT have to release G to attempt jG most of the time. Unless you just mean that you have to release G before you attempt to jG the second hit of a string (which is obvious). If thats what you're talking about, there is plenty of time to block between stances, even the fast ones. Faster transitions doesn't really help either. Its still just going to a option select type situation, the option select will just happen earlier.

 

[hotnikkelz]

Jag, I really think JG is more risky than people assume. I said that already in another thread but you'll have to RELEASE the G button to attempt a JG most of the time. That simple fact alone mean that the "JG is no risk" trend I see on 8wayrun is probably wrong.

I was thinking the same thing. If you can't hold G, then that means you'll need to release, so a mistime means you get hit. This all sounds a bit sketchy to me.
KingAce: JI appears to be MUCH harder than jG at least from some of the sample vids I've seen, jG happened a lot. Getting a JI was like a gift from the heavens when it happened. JI seemed to be a 1 frame timing because that was hard as fuck. Every frame makes a difference I guess. BTW you really oversimplified Maxi's gameplay to make your point to level that it tarnishes your credibility. Just sayin ;)
Anyway there's still too much speculation before actual frame data comes out. I'm waiting for more info before i jump on the I hate jG bandwagon :) as usual, I don't take these things seriously, I'll work with what I've got...as usual.

 

[soakrates]

According to Kayane's demo review, the Maxi in that game still seemed pretty much the same as before.

No disrespect to Kayane, but I wouldn't put much stock in this. Historically, most people who don't play Maxi are pretty ignorant about how he works. Also, if the Gamescon footage is anything to go by, there have been some pretty major changes already.

Edit: and nikkelz, as I understand it, JG has undergone some pretty significant changes since the builds we saw. It's quite possible the JG window was larger in the builds that we see in that footage.

 

[Uber1337]

All i saw in that video was the fact that he has a super now. I have yet to really see any actual gameplay from Maxi. And I know Kayane doesn't use Maxi, but that girl has been playing top level Soul Calibur since she was like 12. I'm pretty sure she knows whats up. I think at the very least she would be able to spot new moves.

 

[Hot Rod Dave]

All i saw in that video was the fact that he has a super now. I have yet to really see any actual gameplay from Maxi. And I know Kayane doesn't use Maxi, but that girl has been playing top level Soul Calibur since she was like 12. I'm pretty sure she knows whats up. I think at the very least she would be able to spot new moves.

Dude...you havent seen the gameplay vid yet? allow me....http://youtu.be/Rtq6RXQdQ88

Some nice changes....seems they are listening to us

HRD

 

[KingAce]

snip

I have played you several times already, as SC2AI...and the fact is I don't need to know what Maxi's inputs are or whatever. Stopping Maxi and punishing him is a relatively very easy thing for me to do in SC4. You should be well aware of that. The only Maxi player that has ever given me a hard time was KrayzieCDs, and that's because he has very strong basics and he wasn't predictable.

When I look at the way soul guage damage works in SCV. It seems like every move blocked measures the same in the amount of soul guage damage done, unlike SC4 where each move did different SG damage.

With the possiblity of a faster maxi as well as safer frames on block, JG seems pretty fair in balancing out his guage damage. In the most recent gameplay we saw, bars were flashing all over the place. So for people that like like to spam safe strings like BB and such, JG is a reasonable deterrent. Get creative.

And JG is simply block punishment, what is there to fear? Especially from people that play one of the most block punishment susceptible characters in SC4. It's not like JG gives +20 frames like GIs. At most you eating a AA or BB. Since it is slow moves that generate the biggest rewards from JG. Most of maxi shit is fast.

 

[Uber1337]

oh wow i guess I missed that video. So I did see a lot of changes. A lot of old moves are back. Old LO K, old WR A. I can't exactly tell whats happening at 1:48, either the cancel on AA is super fast and 3A has a WR A+B type follow-up, or RC A is now a new move. I can still see all the stance transitions though, they don't seem to be that much faster.

And yeah KingAce, I've played you online, but I don't really remember you doing so well with Maxi. I play with Krayzie offline, he is very good at basics. When we play offline Maxi mirrors, it ends up just being a punishment game because we both know him so well and he has so many holes. Theres no doubt about it, Maxi is crap in SCIV. I just don't want that to be the case in SCV.

And even getting hit by AA's and BB's all over the place is bad. Thats what happens to him now. The damage adds up, and what even worse, Maxi loses his momentum.

 

[Reave]

oh wow i guess I missed that video. So I did see a lot of changes. A lot of old moves are back. Old LO K, old WR A. I can't exactly tell whats happening at 1:48, either the cancel on AA is super fast and 3A has a WR A+B type follow-up, or RC A is now a new move. I can still see all the stance transitions though, they don't seem to be that much faster.

His FC 3AAA to RO is very possible to miss if you blinked