Kilik Matchup Thread: Finalized

Wing: Yeah recordings sound fun! Unfortunately i'm not the lucky individual with a recording device so it has to be someone else. Besides that I think Kilik vs. Cervantes should be up for review as well. Other than Tira and Zas its my least experienced matchup.

General Notes: My apologies about the Taki and Amy matchup debates. I totally spaced out and forgot about them. They should be done this weekend.
 
lol well i've played Hates quite a bit with my Kilik, and mine isn't the best in the world but since Hates IS one of the best Cervy's. He gets iGDR off of a lot of mind game set up, and alot of times if you go into MO or Tribute (or whatever it's called) he can iGDR you for free almost, and with perfect execution you will hurt a lot. and this is at a decent range or up on him for any mix ups you're trying to use.

free iGDR off of 1B is bad and with Cervy's WR A being a key into his combos, not much of kiliks moves will come out fast enough to have any effect. My only chances were ground game, once he was finally grounded i had my usual set ups but still. 1K, 6K -> 1k command grab is something i think Kilik as a whole has issues with.
 
Animefreak:

See that's the thing. Playing Cervy you have to consider iGDR and play around it. Then when choosing to play around it you have to ask yourself does Cervy limit Kilik as a character overall after taking away something like 1B. That's the problem Kilik still has a number of tools after eliminating the use of 1B. Personally i'm not a MO mixup user so that really doesn't apply to me but I imagine with that being taken away as well he still doesn't have an advantage. Finally I have no idea what you mean by tribute.

iGDR is i15-Frames so let's look at the overall picture when looking at cervy being played at the highest level. Kilik has to scrap 1B, MO shenanigans, BP shenanigans, 1/3A+B, 11/77B. The latter 11/77B is slow to begin with and is situational relative to your opponents low reaction so that is a universal loss.

So what does Kilik still have:

Asura/Asura JF/A+B/iFotD as high damaging versatile options. iFotD helps provide counter support against Cervy's slightly weaker throw from FC. Also worth mentioning is that iFotD can be done from FC as well.

In the low department he lost 1/3A+B, and 11/77B. However Kilik still has a large assortment of good lows to keep up with anyone including Setsuka with her 1AAA. These lows are 2A, kB, 1/3B+K, 2K, and 6B2. Pick your poison as they all provide an excellent mixup game for Kilik.

Kilik still has the self-explanatory WsB and more rare 4A+B/4A+BBB to use for mids to compliment his low game and both are safe.

Also; iGDR blocked by Kilik equates to 100+Damage and even though Cervy can do the second part to mixup its not a situation the Cervy wants to be in. Also Kilik has a strong standard GI game, he can punish a few things with aB for 24-Damage. Kilik is far from a slouch in this matchup and he is one of the characters in this game that at his basics is extremely powerful.

Last but not least i'm personally not sure about damage output for Cervy being higher than Kilik. If that is the case is that ability as versatile as Kilik to rack up high damage from so many choices and how practical is it.
 
Not using MO and BP just because of iGDR is definetely the wrong choice. If the Cervy player uses a lot og Anti Asura Moves like 6A, AA and Kicks, MO is a very good defensive tool, it hasnt used in offense, right?

When i played Hayate 2 weeks ago he got me so often with MO because i used 4KK, 6A and stuff like that. After Cervys 66K, which is a good Anti Asura Move and gives + on Hit, MO catches 4KK, 6A, AA, 66A, aB. If the Cervy goes for iGDR or something after it, 4B+K evades even iGDR. If you go for another 66K, Kilik has other evades that work well, 1B for example.

Kilik just has an answer for everything, thats why i really hate playing him. He has good step, too. Cervy is pretty linear and can be step Guarded in a lot of situations. As Cervy you cant spam 3A+B because of Asura of course.

Kiliks Throw Game is as good or even better as Cervys, just takes a bit more Skill. He has better Auto Evades, he has better Step, he has better Auto GIs, he can space better, has more Mixups, better Lows that are + on Hit AND safe, and his SG Damage is like 10 times better etc...

6:4 for Kilik. Maybe even more but i know Hates is going to disagree :) The few Moves that Cervy is able to punish are not necessary for Kilik. And why are you afraid of 55 Damage of an iGDR?? Lol Cervy has to be afraid of getting punished with 120 Damage...iGDR is NOT good for punishing -15 Moves, most of the -15 moves CANT be punished for iGDR.

EDIT: Oh, what i forgot, Kilik has with aB a very good i14 punisher, he can punish almost every mid except 3A+B (which is -6 on Hit) for 25 Damage. Cervys aB is just 10 more Damage and Cervy is way unsafer than Kilik is, so actually Kilik could punish a lot if people would use more aB Slide. Its not big Damage but its not bad too + safe so even if youre too late its not too risky....
 
Docvizzo:

To me MO is unnecessary but I know you play Hayate who in the past argued that MO is good. MO is indeed good but still unnecessary imo. All the above situations u mentioned I think it's just better to use a standard GI than fiddling around with MO except lows obviously. You have the oppurtunity for a higher damage output Post GI vs. MO and u cover more options outside of lows. I assume u do know; but if you didn't nothing after a MO GI is guaranteed which further enhances that a standard GI is better.

BP on the other hand I do use occassionally but even that is unnecessary. I mostly use it during oki and certain situations where it will evade just enough to move me back and allow for a whiff punish. However that's rare and in this matchp just overall a dumb decision to mess around with.

In this matchup because MO & BP can put you at risk I opt for the simpler more damaging and safer choices. Then again I kind of play like that universally. For what it's worth though I provide almost no room if any for iGDR.

As also noted by post above yours I would agree aB from Kilik punishes a number of things from Cervy. It's practical to because Cervy needs most if not all those options.

So i'm in agreement with most of ur post but I would argue that the MO is neither good or bad but unnecessary and you open yourself up to being less safe. BP your just better off eliminating all together in this matchup specifically.

I think this matchup is 6/4 as well but I wouldn't argue against a 5/5 either. Definitely no advantage for Cervy though.
 
Your reasons for MO sound reasonable, i think its just a matter of play style whether to use or not. The good thing about Kilik is his unbelievable good and wide movelist, other chars would kill for moves Kilik doesnt even need in order to win....but Im cool with 6:4 for Kilik :P
 
SU don't forgot that :
- if you miss your GI you will be punished at 100%, if you miss your MO attempt, you have reaction advantage on MO K, and reaction freez advantage with MO A / dFOTD.
- you can GI confirm for a garanted MO K, 6B+K, no need to guess, garanteed damage.
- if the opponent guess you will go for MO A, and try to regi, you will free MO A+B, 6B+K (or Asura Techtrap btw)
- you don't have to worry about High, Mid or Low, you know that the opponnent will do an horizontal attack or systematicly doing anti-asura move that can be MOnument? MO is the best choice.

And BP is less good, it's not a perfect anti-vertical completing Asura, cause it will fail versus stab like Astaroth 66K, where MO will do his job 100%, but BP have step back and safe option, and that's is good.

MO is hard to master, and sometimes can be deadly if you make to mistake with it, but still it's some of the best response for Kilik sometimes. Especially to deal with multi string horizontal like Sophitia 236AA, 1AA, cause you garanted damage or take advantage.
 
Kilik vs. Taki:

General Notes:

PO-Series is shut down by Asura & WsB.

Asura is used for the two teleports, both mid & low (forgot notation). There is a practical sweet spot in which Asura will GI the mid and tech-jump the low at the same time. There is no different timing required. Also more damage is lost when Asura tech-jumps. Ex. Asura JF = 80-Damage for the mid and 88+ Damage for the low.

WsB eliminates everything else except PO-B. This includes her stepping ability from PO. A slight delay in WsB will track her completely.

Outside of her PO-Series she has no options to keep up with Kilik or outpace him. She can barely get in because Kilik can zone her extremely well and occassionally when she is able to get in there is nothing she can do to him. She has nothing to punish and he can punish the tools she needs to get in.

Her 3KK is a great measuring tool in this matchup and to be honest is what she is reduced to. The problem however is that it gives Kilik no problems. That's because it does no damage to the SG and therefore there is no pressure. Even though it's anti-Asura Kilik still has a serious standard GI game as a substitute to counter that repetition.

She needs to get in to make whatever lows she has work and even then he outclasses her in that department as well both range and damage wise outside of her bombs which as we all know can be blocked on reaction.

The biggest problem for Taki in this matchup is that she can barely get in. She has no answer for WsB more than anything else in Kilik's arsenal. It also hurts that the tools needed to get in can be punished.

This is a loosing battle from start to finish.

Other Stuff:

I'm gonna leave Kilik vs. Amy alone because of some possible new findings vs. her that changed the dynamic of this match completely. Almost a complete 360.

For reference this is based off of two sessions that took place recently against the same person.

The first session Dreamkiller a NY member creamed me 5-2, 5,2. After receiving some tips to help shut down Amy from a respective Kilik player the matchup results were flipped in my favor 5-3, 5-3. I didn't think the advice would change the match that much so I am not gonna comment on this matchup until more testing is done.

A 6/4 in Kilik's favor may be possible! The reason why I say this is because there were some stupid decisions that were made on my part during clutch moments for Dreamkiller to steal the match plus he was playing Schezarade who seems to have hit boxes that are naturally counter productive to Kilik's moves such as 4B+K which just misses completely. WsB also seems virtually useless at times because of her hitbox and she can punish 1K at any range but not sure if Amy can. Last but not least she can punish WsB in open space dependent on what range it was used at.

I really need to test this more to see if that's the case because Dreamkiller is no joke and for me to limit Schezerade that much is insane. She's a buffed Amy but I don't want to speak prematurely.

Hayate:

Understandable I guess it comes down to an apples vs. oranges preference. Both MO & Standard GI are valuable then.

Seeing how i'm gonna get to meet u at 2/3 of the tournaments listed in my signature below hopefully we can learn and trade strategies.
 
Interesting turn of events ^^
I always believed that Kilik had a slight advantage vs Amy and that people who thought otherwise just didn't know how to fight her. Same goes for Ivy, Yun, Mitsu, Xianghua, ... It's like people don't know how to fight her and therefore think she's top tier. But really only mid tier.
 
Well earlier in the thread u did point that out so props to u if it is indeed true.

However I don't know if she is mid-tier though even with the new findings.

This is because the work I had to put in was not easy but I could definitely feel she was limited because of it.

Besides that her connect rate is higher and more practical than a number of characters. Meaning by the time you have landed a big move vs. her she has most likely connected 2-3 times because of her oki mainly.

I will agree though after doing some more testing this week and in the upcoming tournament this week as well if I have to fight Amy I will know for sure and it could indeed be possible that she is indeed not as great as I thought.

I swear those matches felt like a tournament. There was one person who doesn't even play Soul Calibur who was there that was falling asleep but he woke up just for those sets. The tension was insane.

This is probably irrelevant to the thread but X seems to be good against her too. So she could have more problems than I thought.
 
I like how SU is able to create all these matchups but still have mental blocks against some characters. lol

I'll talk to you and Hayate both this weekend cause I feel like I can explain more matchups in person than typing it here.

Also I forgot to mention that I do play KowtowRobinson so my opinion if thye Kilik/Cervy matchup is 6:4 Kilik.
 
Well I'm happy people are reconsidering Amy. I felt bad that she would be considerered top-tier while my 1-week Voldo was stronger than my lots-of-work Amy. I won't switch because I really like her. But it definitely takes work with Amy to win vs. a knowledgeable opponent. While I did have some easy wins vs "good" players, they only happened because of not knowing the matchup.
 
Fox:

lol! I'm so slow sometimes.

Can someone test these things for me?

Can Amy punish 1K at tip-range with 6BB?
Can Amy punish 4A+B with 6BB?
 
1K -> Sometimes the 2nd B of 6BB whiffs, sometimes not (10 or 15dmg)
4A+B -> It's very distance dependent. Sometimes I can't punish it at all, sometimes it's only second 6 of 6BB (5dmg), sometimes full 6BB (15dmg). 4A+B,B on block gets CH 6BBB (35dmg) before the last B hits.

BTW a very good use for 1K vs Amy is to break the 3BA move : just throw out 1K when you see 3B, and it will punish 3B (-16), jump over the A if it's done... Completely destroys the 3B/3BA reaction traps.

WS K is pretty good vs Amy because of its TC properties. It can be punished if 2nd hit is ducked with WS B or FC B though.
 
Thanks tresto!

I'm trying to compare the differences between Schezerade and Amy vs. Kilik.

I figured you would have some problems punishing.

Schezerade can punish both Kilik's 1K and 4A+B from any range no problem.

The 1K information is important for the future at Nats in regards to punishing.

Yeah 4A+B has different pushback properties depending on distance and situation. I forgot to mention that.
I do know the sweet spots so that's good information to know in regards to punishing as well.

Amy's 3BA i'm not concerned about because I know what tools get around it. I just needed the practice to get my reaction up.

Kilik has a number of counters to that move on block.

1K is obvious but the damage ain't gonna get Kilik up on the damage scale anywhere fast but its good to use under certain situations.

I'm still trying to figure out if Asura is confirmable if u see the A coming. This has given me problems against Thugish in Chicago getting hit out of the tech-jump because of timing.

The last one works real good from testing which was pointed out by Hayate a while back. MO vs. the A after 3B is golden but if Asura can be confirmed in time for the A I would prefer that.
 
Well, Sheherazade being banned in FR (and EVO) I've never played with her more than a couple matches, even in freeplay (hate the design and the voice, and certain combos or strings tend to whiff ...)

About 3BA and stuff ... Sure Asura is good, but I think just doing 1K as soon as you see the move coming is nice too. Since 1K actually punishes 3B alone and 3BA. (i15). Just learn to do 1K consistenly as soon as you block 3B and your opponent will completely forget the move. Amy just has so many other good mid tools anyway (66B, 33B for example) ...

This has been discussed here I believe :
http://www.8wayrun.com/f30/kilik-matchups-general-chat-topic-t988/page5.html

I say just take guaranteed damage. Nobody likes to get free damage, and I don't believe that even if it's a "at disadvantage" hit the Amy player will continue doing 3B/3BA.

BTW I think one of your best tools vs Amy is WS B. (2K ~ FC, WS B for example is a VERY GOOD spacing method).
BTW do Amy players use things like 6K~236BBBB against you ?
 
Sheherazade also seems to have a stranger hitbox.

4B+K seems to miss alot even when she doesn't block it. Its like it just hits her leg but doesn't count as a hit under a number of situations.

WsB whiffs on her almost the same way. It connects but because of her hitbox there is no step timing needed. Its almost impossible to land. I know this because its not the same vs. Amy.

I find doing 1K after 3B while guaranteed doesn't stop people from using it because the damage is so low. That's based off of Dreamkiller and Thugish. The damage is just neglible. Its the same thing with me using 1K against Sheherazade even though it gets punished I still need it under pressure sometimes and finishing the match.

That's why I need info on both because Sheherazade isn't banned at Koga and some other tournaments in the U.S.

Its nothing to complain about though as the buff isn't that big but the strange hitbox issues are annoying.

No people don't use 6K~236BBBB against me but occassionally 6BB~236BBBB which isn't that different but its a non-issue because of it being linear.
 
SU:

I know it isn't too related to Kilik thread.. but I'm in town... check out the New York thread when you get a chance

I still wanna play you

-LAU
 
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