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Belial
King of Hundred Swords
oh you probably meant Crouch Throws where I though about Command Throw.
Sorry for the confusion.
FC grabs suck ^_^
Sorry for the confusion.
FC grabs suck ^_^
Mitsurugi Matchups Chart
- Thread starter Belial
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Belial
King of Hundred Swords
updated 1st post.
Changed (was)
Algol: + 4/6 (3/7)
Amy: = 6/4
Astaroth: = 6/4 (I still think this match is not good for mitsu but...)
Cassandra: = 4/6
Cervantes: - 4/6 (5/5)
Darth Vader : = 6/4
Hilde : - 2/8 (3/7)
Ivy : + 4/6 (3/7)
Kilik : = 4/6
Lizard: + 6/4 (5/5)
Maxi: = 7/3
Nightmare: = 6/4
Raphael: - 4/6 (5/5)
Rock: = 7/3
Mina: - 6/4 (7/3)
Sestuka: + 4/6 (3/7)
Siegfried: + 6/4 (5/5)
Sophitia: + 4/6 (3/7)
Taki: - 4/6 (6/4)
Talim: = 7/3
Apprentice -
Tira: new 6/4
Voldo: = 3/7
Xianghua: - 5/5 (6/4)
Yoda -
Yoshitmitsu: = 6/4
YunSeong: + 7/3 (5/5)
Zasalamel: - 4/6 (6/4)
Changed (was)
Algol: + 4/6 (3/7)
Amy: = 6/4
Astaroth: = 6/4 (I still think this match is not good for mitsu but...)
Cassandra: = 4/6
Cervantes: - 4/6 (5/5)
Darth Vader : = 6/4
Hilde : - 2/8 (3/7)
Ivy : + 4/6 (3/7)
Kilik : = 4/6
Lizard: + 6/4 (5/5)
Maxi: = 7/3
Nightmare: = 6/4
Raphael: - 4/6 (5/5)
Rock: = 7/3
Mina: - 6/4 (7/3)
Sestuka: + 4/6 (3/7)
Siegfried: + 6/4 (5/5)
Sophitia: + 4/6 (3/7)
Taki: - 4/6 (6/4)
Talim: = 7/3
Apprentice -
Tira: new 6/4
Voldo: = 3/7
Xianghua: - 5/5 (6/4)
Yoda -
Yoshitmitsu: = 6/4
YunSeong: + 7/3 (5/5)
Zasalamel: - 4/6 (6/4)
Maxou
[11] Champion
Some very surprising numbers here (I assume it is Mitsu vs Char).
Why is Voldo winning 7-3 against Mitsu? I thought you wrote the contrary?
Why is Voldo winning 7-3 against Mitsu? I thought you wrote the contrary?
stardustwla
[08] Mercenary
Hello I am Sing. I don't agree with the point using only RLC + Mist can kill Astaroth easily.
Astaroth can 2A+G/2B+G when Mitsurugi's doing RLC [A+B].
Astaroth can do auto GI move 6B+K for anti RLC and Mist. Mitsurugi do nothing except RLC 2/Mist 2.
Astaroth can do 66K for killing Mist, Mist K can stop Astaroth 66K but Astaroth still have many frame advantage.
also Astaroth can just wait Mitsurugi's stance move then playing punishment......
Other fast character just do AA or BB to kill any Mitsurugi's stance.
Of course it is base on good guess and good mind game.
But I think character can make mitsurugi very trouble in stance with the move have a-GI mid B. Just like Kilik.
Anti Mitsurugi stance should do heavy practic. (duck RLC A..punish RLC B. Step Mist etc..........)
And have a Mixup make Mitsurugi re-guess you, because he can't block in stance.
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Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Maxou: yes I had no clue back then, lol =)
Sing: thx for your input, however I disagree strongly with you. There is no solution to mitsurugi stance, and Astaroth is one of the weakest characters to deal with it.
slow aGI like asura or 6B+K can be aGI or RLC A on reaction.
Speaking of kilik if he asura dance you can aGI (60) or RLC A (68 b/c it will hit in the back). depending on transition RLC K will counterhit asura after 11K and MST 6B (ch rlc K is over 81~92 damage) or will get evaded by RLC B after RLC K on hit for example. So no, kilik is not good against stance. his only good options come from preset transitions to mist like 4A, which is only good as a gimick anyway. But if mitsu doesnt use stance via move transitions thats different story.
Finally, yes you can 2A+G/2B+G but its always mindgame, you have to anticipate UB to do it. but in RLC you have to anticipate a lot of stuff, which is impossible to sucessfully defend against.
Also Asta need a lot of anticipation b/c his punishment is hard. RLC A is punished with PT, RLC B you need to buffer 66B, MST KB you need to punish with 22_88B (mst second hit will wiff on asta). All this is hard input and precise timing. And situation is constantly changing from relic, where asta is slow to begin with.
Whenever I talk to people about the game it seems like you are playing some mitsu who doesnt know how to play correctly. Stuff you name we came up when the game was out for a month and evolved a lot since then. I mean seriously - AA, BB? bullrush and 6B+K against mist? I'd understand if you at least said 66[K]... if you need to deal with stance asta has some stuff to do, 4A, AB, 66[K]. But what you named (bullrush and 6B+K) isn't good at all.
And I dont believe in mind games, sorry =)
Sing: thx for your input, however I disagree strongly with you. There is no solution to mitsurugi stance, and Astaroth is one of the weakest characters to deal with it.
slow aGI like asura or 6B+K can be aGI or RLC A on reaction.
Speaking of kilik if he asura dance you can aGI (60) or RLC A (68 b/c it will hit in the back). depending on transition RLC K will counterhit asura after 11K and MST 6B (ch rlc K is over 81~92 damage) or will get evaded by RLC B after RLC K on hit for example. So no, kilik is not good against stance. his only good options come from preset transitions to mist like 4A, which is only good as a gimick anyway. But if mitsu doesnt use stance via move transitions thats different story.
Finally, yes you can 2A+G/2B+G but its always mindgame, you have to anticipate UB to do it. but in RLC you have to anticipate a lot of stuff, which is impossible to sucessfully defend against.
Also Asta need a lot of anticipation b/c his punishment is hard. RLC A is punished with PT, RLC B you need to buffer 66B, MST KB you need to punish with 22_88B (mst second hit will wiff on asta). All this is hard input and precise timing. And situation is constantly changing from relic, where asta is slow to begin with.
Whenever I talk to people about the game it seems like you are playing some mitsu who doesnt know how to play correctly. Stuff you name we came up when the game was out for a month and evolved a lot since then. I mean seriously - AA, BB? bullrush and 6B+K against mist? I'd understand if you at least said 66[K]... if you need to deal with stance asta has some stuff to do, 4A, AB, 66[K]. But what you named (bullrush and 6B+K) isn't good at all.
And I dont believe in mind games, sorry =)
Foxbot
[09] Warrior
I don't believe "Astaroth is very weak vs Relic stance to the point where you can completely win the match using only RLC" ... sure RLC is very strong but it has its share of risks as well.
Crouch throw is a decent answer for RLC A+B/[A+B], though admittedly it's not as good as umbrella for example.
Crouch throw is a decent answer for RLC A+B/[A+B], though admittedly it's not as good as umbrella for example.
SBA
TFNA
why is it so low against talim?
stardustwla
[08] Mercenary
Dear Belial :
Let me explain my exp about Astaroth and AA anti Relic and Mist. Although you don't believe mind game.
(I always watch my friend Astaroth killing Mitsurugi)
Case one :
If mitsurugi guessing Astaroth will doing 6B+K for anti Mist.
what mitsurugi will do?? Mist BBB / 2 / KB /G cancel etc.
Yes Astaroth will take this risk.
But these move can be step easily. Even Astaroth.
Case two :
If Mitsurugi guessing Astaroth will go 6B+K for kill RLC A/B/K/A+B
Mitsurugi can only do : RLC 2 / A+B+K / [A+B] over level 1 /
Yes Astaroth will take this risk.
But all these move can killed by Astaroth AB.
Case three :
If mitsurugi in stance and guessing his opponent will do AA.
What mitsurugi will do??
Mist : KB/2/B+K/BBB. All these move can be stepped.
Relic : A/2/[A+B]. All these can break by 2A/BB.
Yes AA need take risk but BB/2A will cover it.
So don't go single solution for anti any stance.
Of course it still can G for watch and block for punishment, but it is not very effective.
I don't think RLC K is easy to block, base on the pressure of RLC B.
So......
The main aim of this anti stance (mind game) is giving pressure to Mitsurugi.
Make him guess when you attack and doing wrong things.
A single 6G already can make mitsurugi doing wrong Relic[A] if he want outspeed your 6B+K.
Then Astaroth can duck Relic A and do FC3K + force mitsurugi play wake up.
Just like the case Nightmare VS Cassandra in SC4.
After NM WS. NSS K kill Cass 236 B / Cass 236AB kill NM NSS K / NM ibA trade hit with Cass 236AB.
All is base on guessing. But at least you can choose falling in mind game or not.
NM WS > NSS K. Cass can do 2A. But NM can do NSS 4 > A+B for evade + attack.
Just like guessing Mitsurugi's 2KB.
Guess right = Mitsurugi crying. But it taking risk to eat all Mitsurugi's mid move.
Force opponent play your game. And don't let him know what you going to play.
Apply this mind-set to Mist / Relic / normal 2KB. It is all the same.
Let me explain my exp about Astaroth and AA anti Relic and Mist. Although you don't believe mind game.
(I always watch my friend Astaroth killing Mitsurugi)
Case one :
If mitsurugi guessing Astaroth will doing 6B+K for anti Mist.
what mitsurugi will do?? Mist BBB / 2 / KB /G cancel etc.
Yes Astaroth will take this risk.
But these move can be step easily. Even Astaroth.
Case two :
If Mitsurugi guessing Astaroth will go 6B+K for kill RLC A/B/K/A+B
Mitsurugi can only do : RLC 2 / A+B+K / [A+B] over level 1 /
Yes Astaroth will take this risk.
But all these move can killed by Astaroth AB.
Case three :
If mitsurugi in stance and guessing his opponent will do AA.
What mitsurugi will do??
Mist : KB/2/B+K/BBB. All these move can be stepped.
Relic : A/2/[A+B]. All these can break by 2A/BB.
Yes AA need take risk but BB/2A will cover it.
So don't go single solution for anti any stance.
Of course it still can G for watch and block for punishment, but it is not very effective.
I don't think RLC K is easy to block, base on the pressure of RLC B.
So......
The main aim of this anti stance (mind game) is giving pressure to Mitsurugi.
Make him guess when you attack and doing wrong things.
A single 6G already can make mitsurugi doing wrong Relic[A] if he want outspeed your 6B+K.
Then Astaroth can duck Relic A and do FC3K + force mitsurugi play wake up.
Just like the case Nightmare VS Cassandra in SC4.
After NM WS. NSS K kill Cass 236 B / Cass 236AB kill NM NSS K / NM ibA trade hit with Cass 236AB.
All is base on guessing. But at least you can choose falling in mind game or not.
NM WS > NSS K. Cass can do 2A. But NM can do NSS 4 > A+B for evade + attack.
Just like guessing Mitsurugi's 2KB.
Guess right = Mitsurugi crying. But it taking risk to eat all Mitsurugi's mid move.
Force opponent play your game. And don't let him know what you going to play.
Apply this mind-set to Mist / Relic / normal 2KB. It is all the same.
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Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Sing: sorry I dont seem to understand what you write. What are those "case 1, 2 ,3" what is the situation? 6B+K is plain bad. there is always better stuff to do, thats all.
AA against MST ?. Why and when do you use AA against stance? you probably mean after 4[A]? who does 4[A] ? Actually I dont even want to start it b/c 4[A] is bad, but your arguement here doesnt seem right (if I understand it correctly) for ex most character AA can be killed by B4 ~ 80 damage. AA is how much ? ~25?
2A , 2K etc sux against rlc. low damage, lots of risk, even on hit mitsu BT with a mixup (BT B+K interrupt almost everything). BB - evaded by everything.
I dont understand why people come up with some solutions that deal no damage (like 2A, AA, BB) to something that easily tears away half life bar (like RLC).
GI against RLC??? OMG.
Forcing a responce must be done with damaging stuff. Either you end up losing more then winning.
Asta punishes RLC A NOT with FC 3K , but with 214A
there is no mindgame. there is only damage evaluations. and for RLC it is high. for AA, BB, 2A and (lol) GI - very low. you want to play like this - okay. If you seek advice - I tried to give it to you, but you wont listen.
Foxbot: Believe what you will. Yet we are discussing matchups and advantages. If you believe its not 6:4 we have something to discuss. Either we'll drown in theory talk.
Sup Hy: Why not xD Talim punishes bad, has short range, weak against stance... etc
AA against MST ?. Why and when do you use AA against stance? you probably mean after 4[A]? who does 4[A] ? Actually I dont even want to start it b/c 4[A] is bad, but your arguement here doesnt seem right (if I understand it correctly) for ex most character AA can be killed by B4 ~ 80 damage. AA is how much ? ~25?
2A , 2K etc sux against rlc. low damage, lots of risk, even on hit mitsu BT with a mixup (BT B+K interrupt almost everything). BB - evaded by everything.
I dont understand why people come up with some solutions that deal no damage (like 2A, AA, BB) to something that easily tears away half life bar (like RLC).
GI against RLC??? OMG.
Forcing a responce must be done with damaging stuff. Either you end up losing more then winning.
Asta punishes RLC A NOT with FC 3K , but with 214A
there is no mindgame. there is only damage evaluations. and for RLC it is high. for AA, BB, 2A and (lol) GI - very low. you want to play like this - okay. If you seek advice - I tried to give it to you, but you wont listen.
Foxbot: Believe what you will. Yet we are discussing matchups and advantages. If you believe its not 6:4 we have something to discuss. Either we'll drown in theory talk.
Sup Hy: Why not xD Talim punishes bad, has short range, weak against stance... etc
SBA
TFNA
well yea belial, those are the reasons shes low-tier...but there is nothing mitsu can do that would put the match at such an askew matchup...in fact i think she this is one of her good matchups...
Her stance and can nullify mitsus: WL is so good when mitsu goes into his stances (relic more than mist, because the tech step in going to mist can cause her problems), and when a mistu tries to go into stance from any where thats close range, AS can take care of that...
Her short range isnt a problem fighting mitsu: mitsu has to get in close to do any real type of damage any way, right?
also she can punish, and actually isnt bad step/whiff punnishing either..
other than that i just dont find a real reason to put it so skewed...i honestly dnt hav a hard time fighting him..then again i havent fought any real type of mitsu outside of online, and boy that rushdown is broken -_-
Her stance and can nullify mitsus: WL is so good when mitsu goes into his stances (relic more than mist, because the tech step in going to mist can cause her problems), and when a mistu tries to go into stance from any where thats close range, AS can take care of that...
Her short range isnt a problem fighting mitsu: mitsu has to get in close to do any real type of damage any way, right?
also she can punish, and actually isnt bad step/whiff punnishing either..
other than that i just dont find a real reason to put it so skewed...i honestly dnt hav a hard time fighting him..then again i havent fought any real type of mitsu outside of online, and boy that rushdown is broken -_-
stardustwla
[08] Mercenary
If you want some situation. I can just say I will attack when I guess I am save or faster than your attack.
It is my mind game. I always try makeing opponent confuse on my attack frequency(equal what set-up I am playing).
e.g. again
Mitsurugi in Mist stance is not easy to duck normal AA. (except B+K > Relic)
It make Mitsurugi's player wanna doing the solution like Mist B4B for outspeed AA.
(I don't believe anyone can doing Mist B4B when watching opponent AA coming)
so...
I can now step sometime / block sometime and wait your wrong B4B. Then do Heavy punishment.
It is just a case or set-up.
And don't get me wrong.
It is just a point of agree or disagree.
Explain my experience not equal to making argument with you.
Is it your purpose of this post??
In my anti Relic with NM.
I will go GSA/33B/step back/Block mix-up. I think the dmg of this anti mix-up's will let you satisfied.
It is my mind game. I always try makeing opponent confuse on my attack frequency(equal what set-up I am playing).
e.g. again
Mitsurugi in Mist stance is not easy to duck normal AA. (except B+K > Relic)
It make Mitsurugi's player wanna doing the solution like Mist B4B for outspeed AA.
(I don't believe anyone can doing Mist B4B when watching opponent AA coming)
so...
I can now step sometime / block sometime and wait your wrong B4B. Then do Heavy punishment.
It is just a case or set-up.
And don't get me wrong.
It is just a point of agree or disagree.
Explain my experience not equal to making argument with you.
Is it your purpose of this post??
In my anti Relic with NM.
I will go GSA/33B/step back/Block mix-up. I think the dmg of this anti mix-up's will let you satisfied.
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Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Sing: I thought we were arguing this matchup is favorable for Mitsu.
So you claim you can AA MST on reaction?
And I dont get where you coming from, you talk about astaroth first, then jump to other characters naming AA,BB and other strange stuff. I dont know where to start, and we cant discuss everything without knowing what each of us meant in the beginning.
Once again for NM you name GS A, 33B, but dont say where to use it. Transitions are not equal. 236 GS A is i23. For example after RLC K it doesnt beat anything and RLC K CH is 85~92 damage. Thats nice strategy though.
So you claim you can AA MST on reaction?
And I dont get where you coming from, you talk about astaroth first, then jump to other characters naming AA,BB and other strange stuff. I dont know where to start, and we cant discuss everything without knowing what each of us meant in the beginning.
Once again for NM you name GS A, 33B, but dont say where to use it. Transitions are not equal. 236 GS A is i23. For example after RLC K it doesnt beat anything and RLC K CH is 85~92 damage. Thats nice strategy though.
stardustwla
[08] Mercenary
Dear Belial
Different character will have different situation on anti mitsurugi's stance.
So normal AA or Astaroth 6B+K is only a mind game sample.
Not a point.
My point is do something else make Mitsurugi do wrong things in stance.
Only by doing this will make Mitsurugi doing wrong move and get punishment.
In my mind and my experience. This is guessing game.
Mitsurugi in stance is one of the guessing game like guessing Mitsurugi 2KB.
Although you disagree strongly, I am not talking to you only.
So I already said :
"Don't go single solution for anti any stance." in post 68.
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
Let me saying it clearly.
If any character in stance.
Opponent only block because of afraid lose blood.
Then the stance will become invincible.
So don't afraid lossing one or two round.
Change your plan(mind game) will make opponent change his plan(mind game) for killing you.
SC4 is winning who change and success a lot. (my opinion only of course).
Different character will have different situation on anti mitsurugi's stance.
So normal AA or Astaroth 6B+K is only a mind game sample.
Not a point.
My point is do something else make Mitsurugi do wrong things in stance.
Only by doing this will make Mitsurugi doing wrong move and get punishment.
In my mind and my experience. This is guessing game.
Mitsurugi in stance is one of the guessing game like guessing Mitsurugi 2KB.
Although you disagree strongly, I am not talking to you only.
So I already said :
"Don't go single solution for anti any stance." in post 68.
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
Let me saying it clearly.
If any character in stance.
Opponent only block because of afraid lose blood.
Then the stance will become invincible.
So don't afraid lossing one or two round.
Change your plan(mind game) will make opponent change his plan(mind game) for killing you.
SC4 is winning who change and success a lot. (my opinion only of course).
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Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Okay we started that off wrong foot Sing
I want to say I like your videos and I think you're a good player.
But I am a difficult person sometimes :) And it seems we have communication problem, sometimes I cannot understand what exactly you mean.
I agree with some things you say, for example
This show you know what you are talking about, b/c most people start claiming bullshit like "stand and punish stance", they dont understand that if you dont do something and just turtle versus stance you will quickly lose.
So hats off to you, very few players actually understand this.
However there are stuff I disagree. But since you say its just an example its okay.
Just a side note that "mindgame" or "guessing game" cannot be good or bad in terms of player level. It can only be sucessful or not. And that doesnt depend on you if you guess right or not. It is fundamentally a coinflip. But what a player can do is optimize damage he can get off a correct guess.
So back on topic, yes - Astaroth can do something about stance, but in my opinion it is hardly very effective. Compared to other characters Asta is really handicapped against stance. I think it is a big problem for astaroth when mitsu is in RLC close to him. I think substituting MST for crouch to duck throws if good against Asta close, b/c Asta is very slow character. Even if he chose not to do anything after advantage and space instead - mst will instantly be a threat. With other characters its more risky to enter MST upclose. For example BB block - MST. Asta has to change his game. Of course there is threat of 66[K] you have to use different options and adjust your game. But fundamentally I think this is effective and intimidating strategy.
But I still lose to Astaroth more than matchup suggest. And I think that is b/c mitsu high-risk/high-reward game strategy opens up opportunities for some HUGE Astaroth damage and life bar is only 240 T_T. Also minor stuff like Asta 2A+K pickup after bullrush - work on mitsurugi if he doesnt tech (and if he does he has to deal with 3B variations or other stuff) helps Asta.
I want to say I like your videos and I think you're a good player.
But I am a difficult person sometimes :) And it seems we have communication problem, sometimes I cannot understand what exactly you mean.
I agree with some things you say, for example
This show you know what you are talking about, b/c most people start claiming bullshit like "stand and punish stance", they dont understand that if you dont do something and just turtle versus stance you will quickly lose.
So hats off to you, very few players actually understand this.
However there are stuff I disagree. But since you say its just an example its okay.
Just a side note that "mindgame" or "guessing game" cannot be good or bad in terms of player level. It can only be sucessful or not. And that doesnt depend on you if you guess right or not. It is fundamentally a coinflip. But what a player can do is optimize damage he can get off a correct guess.
So back on topic, yes - Astaroth can do something about stance, but in my opinion it is hardly very effective. Compared to other characters Asta is really handicapped against stance. I think it is a big problem for astaroth when mitsu is in RLC close to him. I think substituting MST for crouch to duck throws if good against Asta close, b/c Asta is very slow character. Even if he chose not to do anything after advantage and space instead - mst will instantly be a threat. With other characters its more risky to enter MST upclose. For example BB block - MST. Asta has to change his game. Of course there is threat of 66[K] you have to use different options and adjust your game. But fundamentally I think this is effective and intimidating strategy.
But I still lose to Astaroth more than matchup suggest. And I think that is b/c mitsu high-risk/high-reward game strategy opens up opportunities for some HUGE Astaroth damage and life bar is only 240 T_T. Also minor stuff like Asta 2A+K pickup after bullrush - work on mitsurugi if he doesnt tech (and if he does he has to deal with 3B variations or other stuff) helps Asta.
stardustwla
[08] Mercenary
for the case Mitsurugi doing BB on block then going 6B+K > mist.
Astaroth at up close is very horrible when he have frame advantage and doing i63214A+G / B+G.
And he can always do something make people don't duck.
66K / 66[K] hold little / 6B+K on hit or GI success / 6K / 4B / 4.
All this move will make people down or frame advantage on hit.
Do it "sometime" for stop mitsurugi 6B+K, guess it.
Guess right 2 times will make astaroth win a round.
Astaroth at up close is very horrible when he have frame advantage and doing i63214A+G / B+G.
And he can always do something make people don't duck.
66K / 66[K] hold little / 6B+K on hit or GI success / 6K / 4B / 4.
All this move will make people down or frame advantage on hit.
Do it "sometime" for stop mitsurugi 6B+K, guess it.
Guess right 2 times will make astaroth win a round.
HajimeOwari
[11] Champion
This. I don't think there are many people who play Mitsu like you.
And then you can replace Mitsu with Yoshi and that's how I feel about Yoshi talk.
alexlsc
[08] Mercenary
Belial : What if Ast play turtle just crouch guard, all the move are not guessing just reaction?
Following is the move in RLC and what would Ast player react
A/[A]: FC3K Punish
B : Ast Hit by RLC B
K : -16, 2K/4B Punish
[K] : -11, No punishment, start over
A+B : 6K/FC3K Punish/Interrupt, 6K/FC3K have TC do not hit by A+B
A+B whiff if Ast player do not react.
[A+B]: 6K/FC3K Interrupt, 2A_B+G Interrupt [A+B]{2}(UB) ,whiff when [A+B]{1}(GB),
RLC A punish 2A_B+G whiff.
B+K : FC3K Interrupt all MST move
A+B+K: Nothing Happened, maybe punished by some fast move e.g. 6K/FC3K/2K/4B
2 : Nothing Happened, maybe punished by some fast move e.g. 6K/FC3K/2K/4B
8 : FC3K Punish
Only RLC B and 2A_B+G whiff punishment can deal dmg if Ast play turtle just crouch gurad.
Refer to the above list, I can't see any advantage using RLC against Ast. Is there anythings I've missed?
For Ast, if that is not within kiss range, I think 4B+K.B is better choice against RLC as 66[K]/6B+K,
RLC A 1st hit may whiff due to the range and 2nd hit crouched by 4B+K's TC, A+B+K can't GI low...
Following is the move in RLC and what would Ast player react
A/[A]: FC3K Punish
B : Ast Hit by RLC B
K : -16, 2K/4B Punish
[K] : -11, No punishment, start over
A+B : 6K/FC3K Punish/Interrupt, 6K/FC3K have TC do not hit by A+B
A+B whiff if Ast player do not react.
[A+B]: 6K/FC3K Interrupt, 2A_B+G Interrupt [A+B]{2}(UB) ,whiff when [A+B]{1}(GB),
RLC A punish 2A_B+G whiff.
B+K : FC3K Interrupt all MST move
A+B+K: Nothing Happened, maybe punished by some fast move e.g. 6K/FC3K/2K/4B
2 : Nothing Happened, maybe punished by some fast move e.g. 6K/FC3K/2K/4B
8 : FC3K Punish
Only RLC B and 2A_B+G whiff punishment can deal dmg if Ast play turtle just crouch gurad.
Refer to the above list, I can't see any advantage using RLC against Ast. Is there anythings I've missed?
For Ast, if that is not within kiss range, I think 4B+K.B is better choice against RLC as 66[K]/6B+K,
RLC A 1st hit may whiff due to the range and 2nd hit crouched by 4B+K's TC, A+B+K can't GI low...
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- #78
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Hajime: yes probably you're right. it is especially annoying, when people, trying to educate you on matchup, bring up some stuff that you last used over a year ago and found better stuff since then xD
btw on Asta and Yoshi case I'll quote myself from FR forum:
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
alexSC: missed your post somehow O_o
B - . Is it okay to get hit by RLC B all the time?
K - is it okay to sit down unless you get hit by RLC B
A+B+K if you anticipate RLC A and UB you will never punish A+B+K
2 - same as A+B+K
8 - never use it.
btw on Asta and Yoshi case I'll quote myself from FR forum:
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
alexSC: missed your post somehow O_o
A - punish with 214A, not FC 3K.
B - . Is it okay to get hit by RLC B all the time?
K - is it okay to sit down unless you get hit by RLC B
A+B+K if you anticipate RLC A and UB you will never punish A+B+K
2 - same as A+B+K
8 - never use it.
Yes, your proposition inquires Mitsurugi damage evaluation = + infinity. Way to lose this matchup.
yes it can be used but at any range still subject to RLC K and RLC B, especially last. Its okay option, but do you want to spread you attention to something you'll never use otherwise. I'd still go for 66[K] it has way more uses.
alexlsc
[08] Mercenary
I've same opinion with Foxbot that I don't believe "Astaroth is very weak vs Relic stance to the point where you can completely win the match using only RLC"
I just want to make the strategy as simple as possible, you may found that my list almost got one common move : FC3K, player choose to Crouch Guard and wait for bullrush can be a very very simple to do, so ,that it is highly possible that can punish A+B+K,2,8 too (Notes: You cannot buffer A+B+K after RLC 2/8, buffering A+B+K will become RLC A+B). Player may bullrush all the time execpt RLC B and RLC [K], that is a possible plan changing reaction.
For against RLC B, I think that is not impossible that player can standup guard from crouching, of course that is very hard but that is still a possible reaction, If block RLC , 6K is a more simple move for punishment.
For against RLC [K], FC2K interrupt all move execpt RLC B and FC3K interrupt all move except RLC A and RLC A+B+K, Ast player may do nothing just start over like my pervious post, and that will be a bullrush punish if RLC A or A+B+K followed by RLC [K].
If there have a player that got a very good reaction with RLC B, using this strategy will make Mitsurugi cannot deal any dmg using ONLY RLC. Whatever the situation changes, Ast player just waiting for bull rush. The strategy is based on reaction but not guessing, although the punishment dmg is not good but it is still a successful strategy to shut down RLC. And I think all the player can practice to make it work.
Both 4B+K and 66[K] against RLC will be interrupted by both Delay RLC A, RLC B and Delay RLC K too, but 66[K] got one more risk that will run into Delay A+B+K aGI. Also 4B+K is faster. 4B+K.B>2A+K GTD Combo, 4A+B.B>A+G GTD Combo for 1P Ast ONLY(there are a bugs that 2P not work), 4A+B.B>214A (All directions tech trap) deals 74, 70, 122 Dmg respectively compare to 66[K]'s 46 and a weaker follow up. That's why I said that is a better choise.
P.S. Asta's 6B+K is a HIGH move, RLC A+B+K cannot aGI but counter hit by that.
I just want to make the strategy as simple as possible, you may found that my list almost got one common move : FC3K, player choose to Crouch Guard and wait for bullrush can be a very very simple to do, so ,that it is highly possible that can punish A+B+K,2,8 too (Notes: You cannot buffer A+B+K after RLC 2/8, buffering A+B+K will become RLC A+B). Player may bullrush all the time execpt RLC B and RLC [K], that is a possible plan changing reaction.
For against RLC B, I think that is not impossible that player can standup guard from crouching, of course that is very hard but that is still a possible reaction, If block RLC , 6K is a more simple move for punishment.
For against RLC [K], FC2K interrupt all move execpt RLC B and FC3K interrupt all move except RLC A and RLC A+B+K, Ast player may do nothing just start over like my pervious post, and that will be a bullrush punish if RLC A or A+B+K followed by RLC [K].
If there have a player that got a very good reaction with RLC B, using this strategy will make Mitsurugi cannot deal any dmg using ONLY RLC. Whatever the situation changes, Ast player just waiting for bull rush. The strategy is based on reaction but not guessing, although the punishment dmg is not good but it is still a successful strategy to shut down RLC. And I think all the player can practice to make it work.
Both 4B+K and 66[K] against RLC will be interrupted by both Delay RLC A, RLC B and Delay RLC K too, but 66[K] got one more risk that will run into Delay A+B+K aGI. Also 4B+K is faster. 4B+K.B>2A+K GTD Combo, 4A+B.B>A+G GTD Combo for 1P Ast ONLY(there are a bugs that 2P not work), 4A+B.B>214A (All directions tech trap) deals 74, 70, 122 Dmg respectively compare to 66[K]'s 46 and a weaker follow up. That's why I said that is a better choise.
P.S. Asta's 6B+K is a HIGH move, RLC A+B+K cannot aGI but counter hit by that.
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Belial
King of Hundred Swords
alexsc: well, thats interesting opinion, thank you.
I think it is impossible to react to RLC B. Maybe if your opponent stand still and you only anticipate RLC B. FC 3K is too little damage, and if you expect to punish A+B+K or 2, then you'll be hit by UB probably. And RLC B - certainly.
Lets stop at FC 2K. How many damage? 12? lose to RLC B (49~51 + oki) and on hit Mitsurugi is BT with good mixup BT B+K/BT 2K. So 2K is simply bad to punish stance. Never mind its weak damage.
I dont think its possible to react to everything from RLC. I have travelled and played a lot of people and top players, and confirm its impossible. Even on paper all that require a lot of concentration and anticipation which is very tiresome and hard, where reward is very small.
My experience tells me if you get uplcose to asta in RLC he's in trouble. If you think other way around thats fine.
PS: Yeah I know about 6B+K just Sing told about Asura inbetween and I got carried away.
I think it is impossible to react to RLC B. Maybe if your opponent stand still and you only anticipate RLC B. FC 3K is too little damage, and if you expect to punish A+B+K or 2, then you'll be hit by UB probably. And RLC B - certainly.
Once again we are stuck here a little bit. If you do some calculations you will see this all is not favorable options at all.
Lets stop at FC 2K. How many damage? 12? lose to RLC B (49~51 + oki) and on hit Mitsurugi is BT with good mixup BT B+K/BT 2K. So 2K is simply bad to punish stance. Never mind its weak damage.
I dont think its possible to react to everything from RLC. I have travelled and played a lot of people and top players, and confirm its impossible. Even on paper all that require a lot of concentration and anticipation which is very tiresome and hard, where reward is very small.
My experience tells me if you get uplcose to asta in RLC he's in trouble. If you think other way around thats fine.
PS: Yeah I know about 6B+K just Sing told about Asura inbetween and I got carried away.