Raphael General Discussion

the only thing i discovered this weak with raph is :

When in japanese voice mode, if he gets left-side grabbed by amy (flip then classy back stomp) he lets out a really funny yelp.
 
I don't see why Raph is underestimated. He has a good CF game and does nice damage. Prep/VE shenanigans have enough variety to make anyone seem psychic. I guess his weakness to step doesn't bug me since I like to space and poke with him for the most part. So what do you vampire mainers think he's lacking?
 
he lacks speed, damage, options, and most importantly, tracking. The most unfortunate part of this is you must give up 2 of these things (along with safety) to gain one of these advantages.

He does have some fun things - Gauge damage, parlor tricks stuff that will work - you just have to play it perfectly
 
Piggy I'm not seeing the lack of damage. He's got plenty of moves that hurt ex. 66A, 2A+B, 236B, 11B, 1K (24 is great for a hard-to-read low), 33K:B, 8A+B, 66A+B to name a few. His throw game is above average. A throw = 55. B throw = 50. Left = 60. Right = 62. Back = 65. SEA's moves aren't too damaging but that's about it. People seem to say that cuz it's easy to assume. You can't expect him to put on the hurt like Asta can.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by his lack of speed and options?
 
Mikosu- The problem with most of the moves you listed is that they do average damage (imo) and if they get stepped or randomly ducked Raph will get punished for more damage than he was going to dish out.

66A- Great move

2A+B- I have two problems with this move. Extremely steppable and a lot of the people I play against are pretty good at blocking it on reaction. I dont like using it outside of combos/oki.

236B/11B- Great moves that do awesome soul gauge damage but it takes just a tiny sidestep to get on Raph's backside. I try to use these moves in situations where I know my opponent won't step

1K- is good against a lot of the cast because they can't punish it that badly. but against opponent who plays against Raph a lot they SHOULD be blocking this consistently.

66A+B- Do people actually land this move outside of post GI mixups? I can't remember the last time I've hit this move on a ducking opponent. The move and combo should do way more damage considering how slow it is.

I think Raph's only problem is that outside of 4B/CH Prep A his damage is very average at best. Raph doesn't have that random/panic button move that he can just throw out and be safe from retaliation (Amy 33B, Sophie 66B, Voldo 1K, etc). Pre patch I would argue that move used to be BB but now not so much :/
 
I'm not saying he isn't linear. We all agree on that. I'm just saying he can do damage. You considering it average proves it. I hear what you're saying though. 4B, 2A and even 6BB seem like Raph's panic buttons to me. Either TC it or stuff it the old school way. Still risky but everything comes with a risk really ex. stepping those other characters' moves you listed. So the consensus is he's mid-low due to anti-step issues?
 
If anti step issues were enough to put you in mid/low cass would go there as well. Course she does more damage in general.

his only problems are anti step and damage are lacking, but they aren't so bad that he can't handle it, and he has plenty of strengths to offset these (such as range, and he outranges nearly everyone)

He's somewhere in mid tier. There are quite a number of characters worse than Raph.


also raph's 66A+B, the majority of the time I use it I don't expect it to hit (much like Nightmare's 66B if you play him at all). the block recovery and SG damage make it worth using this
 
mikosu said:
You considering it average proves it.
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It does?

When I say average at best I really mean average at best. To me most of his options are below average and the few that are above average (like the ones you listed) are somewhat risky because of the problems associated with them. There are ways around most moves but the good ones are the ones that at least give you a beefy reward for landing them.

Ironically despite my bitching about his damage, I think Raph is really strong in this game. If his range, versatility in punishing, and soul gauge game are used correctly I think he is borderline Upper mid to mid tier.
 
It did, but I see now. Considering what is easily and realistically applicable most of the time I agree with you. Plus I can't debate with Tiagol. He's scary =/
 
Don't get me wrong - I love the way Raph plays in this game, and I agree that he is mid tier; however, you have to keep in mind what I said about sacrificing 2 or 3 good things to accomplish something good...

66A is trash, really, I don't know how you guys get away with it...a slow(ish) advancing High that will get TCd by accident even by Raph's 236B - but this is a great example...you'll probably eat 50 damage, but if not, you stop step and do 30 damage on hit. For damage you need 44B and 22BB:B

All the other moves listed (save 1k) are easily steppable (by accident) as well as being generally slow and unsafe. If you were to grade Raph - he would have maybe on A (gauge damage), but he would have a lot of solid Bs (with decidedly low marks in tracking and ring out)

His lack of speed is just that he is relatively slow (compared to top tier characters). 6BB is solid at i13, but can only be used as a punisher since it is unsafe. He doesn't have many good, safe, interrupting options, but he has enough to make him usable.

Lack of options is similar - I didn't mean that you don't have options really, cause Raph, unlike most characters, really needs to use a lot of moves in the move-list. What I meant for options is you really have to decide how you are gonna play a match and play it that way...you ahve to be either Spacy & Poke (Safe), Step & Punish (consistent JFs), Rush (high risk / reward), or CF (is...well...cf). Lack of options means you really need to pick one of these and go with it depending on the match-up. His inability to stop step sort of pigeon-holes Raph into playing certain styles, especially against fast steppers / hard punishers / TC heavy etc.

again - don't get me wrong, I like the way Raph plays, and I will continue to use him in tournaments, the problem just is that, depending on how you use him, there is always a character that does everything he does, but better.
 
66A is vital because it tracks both sides from a quite far distance and is safe on block. It actually has decent speed considering the range it covers. By comparison, Cass has NOTHING that tracks both sides at this distance (maybe 1A but I don't think that's as long range, plus that can be reacted to unlike raph 66A). I bet quite a few characters don't have anything to track step at this range.
 
66A is vital because it tracks both sides from a quite far distance and is safe on block.
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If they are that far away (to get hit with 66A tip range) is it really worth trying to close and hit them and do less than 30 damage? When they can TC under it and wail you for far more?

The risk v reward on this move just doesn't seem to be worth it to me, but that's just me
 
It's more about having the option to use 66A than the raw risk vs reward. If they are doing random TC moves from far away you should be able to counter this somehow.
 
he has anti step.......just all viable options are high

if they are randomly TC'ing 236B it hurts

damage is good for single hit moves

but his combos are lame

he has good mid range options i pity the foo who attempts to step VE A
 
you still get away with VE A? I get duck / punish almost every time

Tiamat - good moves from range (236Bs, 66A+Bs etc) are what I fear when using 66A - not a random WSB or 2A or umbrella or some such.
 
I get fucked up for doing VE A, especially playing against all the NM's in MD. VE K however is getting better and better.
 
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