Signia
[13] Hero
Nice info, but you don't you need to hit K to start the move and then K again for the JF? Or by, (K), you mean you hold and release at the JF timing?
SCV Yoshimitsu Q&A and General Discussion
- Thread starter HajimeOwari
- Start date
JustKill
[09] Warrior
^^^Ah, sorry about that... i just placed the K in the parentheses to show i meant tap/hit K only once by itself in the explanation/notation and not needing K:K at all for either JF recoveries...also adding that you don't need to hold K at all. However, you can but you don't need to... releasing/holding the K has no effect, so feel free to use what feels best for you, but there is only need to input 1 single K(tap or hold) for either versions however its done.
For myself, i find it easier to hit/tap K for each recovery done because i know where the timing for the 2 versions are at this point, but nothing wrong with holding the K either as long as you do it at the right time(s) for each recovery..., slightly off topic: this actually frustrates me when i try it online because i know when to do it from a(somewhat) visual cue but online trashes that completely for me along with timing his other JF's...mostly depends on the connection with whoever i'm playing that makes all the difference, although i prefer to use him in offline settings so i don't miss staple combos or any involving JF's
For myself, i find it easier to hit/tap K for each recovery done because i know where the timing for the 2 versions are at this point, but nothing wrong with holding the K either as long as you do it at the right time(s) for each recovery..., slightly off topic: this actually frustrates me when i try it online because i know when to do it from a(somewhat) visual cue but online trashes that completely for me along with timing his other JF's...mostly depends on the connection with whoever i'm playing that makes all the difference, although i prefer to use him in offline settings so i don't miss staple combos or any involving JF's
Tombstoner
[08] Mercenary
Ive been playing yoshi for quite a while but diddent really start to play him on a "pro" lvl untill sc5.
I have no problem pulling of aB+k or imcf but im having trouble RCCing after imcf to pull of the really spectacular comboes . Can some one plz give me a few tips on how to pull this off.
An expample of what im havin trouble with is this combo:
88K imcf 66b 66aA+B+K in this case its not the imcf that is the problem but linking 66b to 66aA+B+K
Maby i just need an crash course in RCCing or my timing may be off but any help would be apreciated.
I have no problem pulling of aB+k or imcf but im having trouble RCCing after imcf to pull of the really spectacular comboes . Can some one plz give me a few tips on how to pull this off.
An expample of what im havin trouble with is this combo:
88K imcf 66b 66aA+B+K in this case its not the imcf that is the problem but linking 66b to 66aA+B+K
Maby i just need an crash course in RCCing or my timing may be off but any help would be apreciated.
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
For starters, I'm glad you came to ask.
RCC, recovery crouch cancel.
It's done by tapping any direction besides 1, 2, or 3 after a move that recovers crouching. Doing this causes your character to start a dash, which you cancel into a standing attack.
So for something like FC 3K > RCC 3B, you do FC 3K > 8 > 3B
However when stuck next time, try utilizing this thread here. Hope this helps.
RCC, recovery crouch cancel.
It's done by tapping any direction besides 1, 2, or 3 after a move that recovers crouching. Doing this causes your character to start a dash, which you cancel into a standing attack.
So for something like FC 3K > RCC 3B, you do FC 3K > 8 > 3B
However when stuck next time, try utilizing this thread here. Hope this helps.
mkl
[00] Signia's Cheerleader
Another thing to note (that is pretty unrelated but worthy of mention) is that iMCF after 22_88K is pretty wonky as far as having the range for iMCF to connect. In a regular match I feel like it isn't even consistent enough to use that combo and would much rather use that stun for some other more consistent combo. Hell you could even burn meter for bootleg iMCF since it has better reach.
But anyway, essentially what you do you RCC is cancel your crouching state immediately by tapping any direction that isn't downward (1_2_3). It is timing based to a degree as far as waiting for the "cool down" from the move that put you in crouching. So just practice for the fluidity and you'll eventually get it down pat. For that combo you listed though, if the iMCF is not giving you trouble as far as connecting it-- tap 6~66B. Personally, after iMCF I will always tap 66 anyway since it's really difficult to hit confirm a combo on CH without already loading it up. If it connects on counter hit, I'll just have to hit another 6 and B for the standard meterless bnb.
Enligh10ment
[08] Mercenary
I'm not 100% sure about this but I don't think you can link 66b to 66aA+B+K. and 66b leaves you in a standing position so you don't need to crouch cancel. Instead you can 88k>imcf>66b>dnk/66A+B.
AVNjonnitti
Hot Dog
what do i do after i get knocked down and yoshi goes into that helicopter stance? i play patroklos
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Your correct... cept that ender isnt guaranteed.
Duck if he does the mid let go of block if he does the high punish if he does the low block and punish if he throws duck and punish... Ducking beats everything and the DGF B is easier to react to than the DGF K
Enligh10ment
[08] Mercenary
66A+B isn't guaranteed after a 66b CH? maybe you thought I meant 66A+B after dnk? in that case yes you're right. I was suggesting that he can follow 66b with dnk or 66A+B ^^
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Ah i see now... Well least we cleared any confusions haha... For shame
Frostheart
[10] Knight
Near a wall, (CH) 66B>66A+B sometimes gets wonky (this happens for DNK too), but if you're doing the DNK version do stop immediately once you see a hit not connect or eat a punish.
Okay this is for playing against opponents familiar with the Yoshi matchup. For pressure setups, I know Signia does a lot of 6B>iMCF and 2K>iMCF (and of course, iMCF>iMCF) but 22K is actually a pretty decent tool too. I know the standard is to iMCF after this frame trap but people familiar with the setup will either backstep or block and wait for the iMCF. This is when you do a run-in grab or iFC 3K. It's a high, but under pressure very few people will attempt to TC and punish it.
Against people with good spacing skills, 3K is actually really good, I feel like people don't use it enough- it catches step slightly, does a slight pushback on hit which still leaves you in iMCF range if the opponent tries to do anything, and is -6 on block. So after blocking, iMCF will beat out anything over i16 and people tend not to be as wary with 3K as compared to iMCF after 2K and 6B (outside the standard 4B/22K traps). Just throw out a 3K>iMCF first and observe how they react to it. If they habitually try to interrupt with a 2A (and most will try that or BB if they don't have an AS/NS B or JF twister, I guarantee it), 3K, backstep and 3B whiff punish or 4KB if they are just out of 3B range. If they consistently try to BB after 3K, JG/step 3B. If they attempt to backstep after falling for the first iMCF setup, run in grab or 4KB. If they try to box step, throw out another 3K and reset the setup.
By the way, I found out that Sieg can Base Hold aGI Yoshi's CE for some ridiculous combo damage. So try not to random CE against a good Sieg... and Tira can (CH) 9KK you *while* you're doing CE. Which is very fucking bad news if she's in Gloomy because that means 93 damage with 666B BE. So don't random CE her either. Actually don't random CE at all against good players, period!
Actually the best thing to do is to stay on the ground and wait for him to throw out DGF stuff. Sure, DGF K will hit, but you won't eat a 60-120 dmg mixup. Of course, he can just 3B you until you decide to stop playing dead and block, but generally I hate people who just play dead and skip my DGF mixup entirely lol.
Okay this is for playing against opponents familiar with the Yoshi matchup. For pressure setups, I know Signia does a lot of 6B>iMCF and 2K>iMCF (and of course, iMCF>iMCF) but 22K is actually a pretty decent tool too. I know the standard is to iMCF after this frame trap but people familiar with the setup will either backstep or block and wait for the iMCF. This is when you do a run-in grab or iFC 3K. It's a high, but under pressure very few people will attempt to TC and punish it.
Against people with good spacing skills, 3K is actually really good, I feel like people don't use it enough- it catches step slightly, does a slight pushback on hit which still leaves you in iMCF range if the opponent tries to do anything, and is -6 on block. So after blocking, iMCF will beat out anything over i16 and people tend not to be as wary with 3K as compared to iMCF after 2K and 6B (outside the standard 4B/22K traps). Just throw out a 3K>iMCF first and observe how they react to it. If they habitually try to interrupt with a 2A (and most will try that or BB if they don't have an AS/NS B or JF twister, I guarantee it), 3K, backstep and 3B whiff punish or 4KB if they are just out of 3B range. If they consistently try to BB after 3K, JG/step 3B. If they attempt to backstep after falling for the first iMCF setup, run in grab or 4KB. If they try to box step, throw out another 3K and reset the setup.
By the way, I found out that Sieg can Base Hold aGI Yoshi's CE for some ridiculous combo damage. So try not to random CE against a good Sieg... and Tira can (CH) 9KK you *while* you're doing CE. Which is very fucking bad news if she's in Gloomy because that means 93 damage with 666B BE. So don't random CE her either. Actually don't random CE at all against good players, period!
Actually the best thing to do is to stay on the ground and wait for him to throw out DGF stuff. Sure, DGF K will hit, but you won't eat a 60-120 dmg mixup. Of course, he can just 3B you until you decide to stop playing dead and block, but generally I hate people who just play dead and skip my DGF mixup entirely lol.
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
Yeah, I'll add that Leixia's 9K can stuff Yoshi's CE at point blank range. Just wait for when Yoshi starts spinning. However like you said, beware of using a stray CE unless it's to interrupt or after a GI.
Signia
[13] Hero
Yeah I just noticed 3K on block might be good place to iMCF. I do it after BB, 6B, and 6A, so why not after 3K? It was -8 in SCIV so it never felt like a good time iMCF then. Other on-block moves I might start doing it after is AA, 2B, 2A, 9B (lol). AA and 9B are -6. 2B is -8 and 2A is -7 but it leaves you crouched, so iMCF is a frame faster.
Though really, -6 isn't the best place to iMCF in a lot of MUs. The reason 6A and 6B into iMCF work so well is the the unfamiliarity of the moves -- they are pokes with short blockstun and low pushback. BB works because that move usually the "evade or GI setup" move; I have people doing evade-catching moves or delaying or moving and attacking and that's how I CH with that. A lot of mid CH moves are i16 as well, or mids just start to get strong at that point. That's ok because you'll trade, but you gotta be frame perfect!
Really, the key is to do -6 iMCFs when they don't want to 2A or BB (or if they're a slow character). And that's when you're:
-outside of 2A range, so they won't want to 2A.
-at a range you can backstep BBs or other fast mids, so they don't want to BB.
-outside of their AA or step-catching range, or at a range where you can backstep it. If you're within their fast-step-catching-zone, they feel more comfortable doing a BB, since they know you don't want to step, right? Though, if they actually AA, you'll CH them, so you might want that option available to them.
-not too far away or you won't CH their backstep catcher or mid-sidestep catcher and will just whiff and look dumb.
So if you want to attempt -6 iMCFs against Pyrrha or Mitsu, you gotta keep those subtle differences in range in mind. The spacing I'm thinking of is also a great place for them to dash-grab, which you will CH! For every other character, this spacing is a good place to 2A. The fact that you will CH slow moves that will actually reach you and be able to backstep fast moves that can interrupt you makes this spacing good for a lot of characters. Even if they decide to back up or sidestep, they will have a very hard time whiff punishing on reaction; they'd have to commit to a guess.
So, in conclusion, -6 iMCF requires frame perfect execution and deep knowledge of spacing and matchups to be successful, and it also helps to know how forcing fast reactions affects decision-making. Pretty much what this character is all about. Gotta have the whole package....
Frostheart
[10] Knight
Agree with a lot of things above about space knowledge and matchup, why I mentioned 3K is because of its deceptive range, safety on block and the fact that it works against a number of characters who do not have many options to counter the set - Sieg, Zwei etc. Which is why I pointed out it doesn't work against say, something fast and damaging like i14 AS B4, or double twister. What I meant to say about 3K is to use it to test what the opponent tries to do after seeing you throw out iMCF after it in the first couple of rounds, like how you use 6B and 2K (isn't 6B the same frames on block too, iirc?)
If they notice that you snap iMCFs after a 3K - or 6B, 2K, whatever close-range pressure tools you have (btw I know that you already do this setup but for the benefit of others) - 90% of the time people will do these 4 things or something similar if they have no other alternatives: freeze up, backstep, 2A or BB. It's all about reading which of these habits they tend to throw out and reacting accordingly. Like, after a couple of times or so of iMCF-ing after 3K, throw out a 3K without the iMCF, block and see what happens. If pressured enough a lot will freeze up, so subsequently dash in grab; even better, 3K them again and reset the pressure game... or if 2A is their answer, commit to a single backstep and 4KB... If you notice they try to backstep? 4KB. BB? step and punish.
A lot of this is dependent on guesswork because you cannot hesitate in committing to your move, but also good reading of what the other guy does - in a short competitive span of first to 2 or 3 games not many can simply change their habitual decision-making process with a snap of their fingers. This is basically the framework of Yoshi's pressure game imo: making them fear iMCF after a move, forcing them into a reaction against it and reading what this reaction happens to be most of the time. Of course, he needs to be in "Yoshi range" to do his stuff, so he has to block or dance and weave around to get into that zone, iFC 3K, whatever. Though I wouldn't need to do any of these if the other guy doesn't know what to do against DGF or how to respect Yoshi's killzone and so doesn't space appropriately; I'll just go into a somewhat autopilot mode of stancing and iMCFing my way through.
Thanks for the 2K>iMCF 4 months ago btw; oh, and I haven't really thought about 6A into iMCF though. Come to think of it that sounds good too! Though the standard reaction after that is to crouch block rather than press buttons (and 236B4 will still kill you if you try to throw out stuff regardless), or that's what I've seen so far anyway.
Signia
[13] Hero
You're right, 3K is perfect, especially the way I laid it out in my last post. Yeah, it's all about reading them and their responses, but that's all dependent on the spacing. A good player will recognize those subtle spacings and how the risk/reward of the options changes, even if subconciously, and I was just showing you how that can help you land CH iMCFs. I do what I can to take the guesswork out.
But again, you're right, you always have to keep in mind how they respond to stuff, there's no really escaping it.
Are people 236Bing or twistering just to stop your pressure? If I force my opponent to do that, I consider it a win. 3B punishes make that such a bad idea.
I just realized you're FrizFroz, the youtube channel I just watched, lol. Good stuff
mechag0dz1lla
[08] Mercenary
Just had to say THANK YOU FrizFroz & Signia! This last page of dialogue btwn you two has been MOST IMPRESSIVE on the subject of iMCF and its uses and setups.
I mainly wanted to ask about a certain combo that was mentioned in this thread, which is 88K > iMCF > 66B > DNK.
I'm not too good with numbers, so forgive me if I seem like a noob, but wouldn't a 88K > 3B combo deal more damage? 88K > iMCF > RCC 3B would work too, right? If so, what is the benefit of the DNK combo over the 3B combo?
I'm not too good with numbers, so forgive me if I seem like a noob, but wouldn't a 88K > 3B combo deal more damage? 88K > iMCF > RCC 3B would work too, right? If so, what is the benefit of the DNK combo over the 3B combo?
TsunamiBye
[14] Master
Anything that relates to DNK in a combo is best used near an edge. It can ring them out. Best time to do it for instance, is if your opponent has a life lead or as mentioned earlier, use it near an edge of the ring.
88K > iMCF > RCC 66B > DNK is a good combo I've yet to master because I'm rather lazy at RCC(Recover Crouch Cancel). This combo imho is great to use if your opponent is near the edge of the ring.
88K > iMCF > RCC 3B? I'd do aB+K and follow up with either Deathcopter, 66A+B, or if close enough, DNK.
There are way better experts than what I know, but as simple Yoshi player; I love to have a chance to DNK. You need it in combos. Happen to use 3B > aB+K to get your opponent near a wall? 3B > aB+K and then follow up with DNK. It's the bread and butter of Yoshi. You could of course experiment, but I humbly think DNK helps end rounds with crucial ring outs or meaty wall combos.
Sure doing a simple 88K > 3B is nice, but it's very mandatory to aB+K to get the whole combo. 88_22KK > 3B > aB+K > and end with either 66A+B or deathcopter or if near wall DNK. Just my humble opinion of how I play Yoshi.
Frostheart
[10] Knight
Yeah actually I forgot how bad of an idea it is to try to punish a possible iMCF after a safe poke with -16 stabs. Just happened to me before and I was like zomg that hurt some. But yeah, mostly I see the other pokes or backsteps as a reaction. How did you fare against shenyuan's sieg last time? He has this aoe of doom around him that I couldn't close in without difficulty except iFC 3K. WS B is too good lol
Benefit of 66B>DNK combo is a no-frills, easy, guaranteed way of RO near edge as an alternative to possibly messing up an a:B+K after 3B. 3B>a:B+K is more for UB trap setups (and you can DNK too near edge anyway). Btw pocky you don't have to RCC to iMCF 66B!