Skill vs. Talent

[HajimeOwari]

THIS ISN'T DISSING PEOPLE WHO USE COMBOS OR WHO DON'T IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO CLAIM TO BE GOOD BUT ONLY KNOW 1 or 2 COMBOS AND REPEAT THEM OVER AND OVER ALL MATCH LONG

If that person is beating you consistently with aforementioned 1-2 combos over and over, then that person is clearly the better player. Why? Because you're losing to it. You're the one making the mistake of getting hit by it in the first place.

If you can beat them, let them talk all they want. Seriously, who gives a shit if they brag when they can't back that shit up? In a nice summary, learn to deal with it or you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Fuzion]

Someone who's beating you with the same old strategy over and over has a skill, period. It may not be the skill you value very much, but it's a skill nonetheless. What you're getting at is that you don't think they have many other skills past the one or 2 "combos" they've learned, and you're probably right. The fact is, we all bring a bunch of strengths and weaknesses to the table when we play a match. If they stumbled onto some strategy that you can't deal with, it doesn't mean they have no skill, they just happened to have something that seems to be your Achilles heel until such time that you learn how to beat it.

 

[TsunamiBye]

I don't know what to say.
Skill is simply your "knowledge"?
Talent is simply "putting it to action"?

 

[ZDamned]

Talent is inherant...
Skill is learned and earned...

I can't draw a damn straight line, but I bet I could practice at it for days and learn to do it, and hell, I may be able to do it well after a long time. That would be called a skill when I become able to do it, it took work, practice and dedication.
However, ask an artist, and they would be able to do it blindfolded. That is talent, an innate ability that took no effort to show.

 

[Ceirnian]

I don't like where this thread is going. Hajime, don't you dare suggest that these people should take personal responsibility for losing. It's obviously the other players fault that they lost! It has nothing to do with the fact that they get hit by dumb shit. Expecting people to place the blame squarely on their own shoulders is asking too much.

 

[T_T]

"Tags

chop , my_talent>your_skill , skill , slap , talent , what_would_sirlin_do"

funny tags. especially the wwsd. that is very lol

 

[MAILBOXARSON99]

ya Oofmatic is an awsome SC4 player but i am trying to show you that these "combos" are out there and people go to youtube and learn these and use THESE COMBOS AND NOTHING ELSE
then they go on to brag about how much skill they have. That don't have any kind of skill they just have the ability to push buttons fast and in order. So when it comes down to it they have no common sense and can ONLY use combos that other good players show them.

i think this whole thread got throw off because of me using the whole "talent vs skill" wording
my bad i'm going to think of better word choice next time.

THIS ISN'T DISSING PEOPLE WHO USE COMBOS OR WHO DON'T IT'S TALKING ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO
CLAIM TO BE GOOD BUT ONLY KNOW 1 or 2 COMBOS AND REPEAT THEM OVER AND OVER ALL MATCH LONG
^^^^^^^^^^^^ That is the goal of this thread
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Serious or not this is the best idea ever

If you're having such a hard time with combos, you should try playing as Yoda.

 

[Plume]

The winner is not necessarily the better player.

Talim loses against Hilde. Do you think that the Hilde player is the better player because he can win with nothing else than one combo?
The most overpowered combo in the game, which can be done by anyone with ease.
Bubbletard Algol wins against Maxi. Do you think that the bubbletard is the better player because he can "win with only 5 moves and one combo"?
Maxi has no proper tools to deal with a bubblespam Algol. It's nearly impossible for Maxi to win.

Online, Mitsurugi is overly aggressive, very hard to stop. But whenever you manage to stop him for a while, he never blocks any of your slow lows and never sidesteps your ranged mids/highs. Never breaks your throws. Always falls for the same setup.
Basically his defense and basics are absolute trash.
Yet he wins because you're not Ivy or Kilik. You can't keep him away all day and stopping his endless random 50/50 online bullshit is extremely difficult for anyone.
Is he the better player?

That Mitsurugi example is terribly common. Terrible players who have no fucking defense... And yet they win most of the time simply because they're overly aggressive online.

There are favourable and unfavourable matchups. And there are tiers. And in the case of online play, there is lag.

 

[MAILBOXARSON99]

The winner is not necessarily the better player.

Talim loses against Hilde. Do you think that the Hilde player is the better player because he can win with nothing else than one combo?
The most overpowered combo in the game, which can be done by anyone with ease.
Bubbletard Algol wins against Maxi. Do you think that the bubbletard is the better player because he can "win with only 5 moves and one combo"?
Maxi has no proper tools to deal with a bubblespam Algol. It's nearly impossible for Maxi to win.

Online, Mitsurugi is overly aggressive, very hard to stop. But whenever you manage to stop him for a while, he never blocks any of your slow lows and never sidesteps your ranged mids/highs. Never breaks your throws. Always falls for the same setup.
Basically his defense and basics are absolute trash.
Yet he wins because you're not Ivy or Kilik. You can't keep him away all day and stopping his endless random 50/50 online bullshit is extremely difficult for anyone.
Is he the better player?

That Mitsurugi example is terribly common. Terrible players who have no fucking defense... And yet they win most of the time simply because they're overly aggressive online.

There are favourable and unfavourable matchups. And there are tiers. And in the case of online play, there is lag.

You make a choice at the character selection screen. Choosing a top-tier character is a skillful choice, whereas choosing a bottom-tier character is an unskillful choice. If you lose with Rock, you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you think Hilde and Algol are so good, you should play as them.

 

[HajimeOwari]

The winner is not necessarily the better player. Bitch, whine, complain!! Characters win, not players!!!

I guess I was being too polite earlier. These are the words of a scrub. I'll quote myself and slightly revise it...

If that person is beating you consistently with aforementioned 1-2 combos and / or tactics over and over, then that person is clearly the better player. Why? Because you're losing to it. You're the one making the mistake of getting hit by it in the first place.

Either learn to deal with it, or continue bitching and lose to the same shit over and over. Let me sum up your nonsense about counter characters:

Skilled Talim > scrub, spam Hilde.
Skilled Maxi > scrub, bubble spam Algol.
Skilled anyone > scrub, on-line Mitsu who "always falls for the same shit."
Skill > Scrub > Plume.

 

[Plume]

Skilled Talim > scrub, spam Hilde.

I never talked about if Talim wins. Don't put things out of context.
What if Hilde wins? Does that make the Hilde player better? No it does not.
But if Talim wins, then hell yeah Talim is the better player.

Skilled Maxi > scrub, bubble spam Algol.

Yeah. Now what if it's not a scrub spamming? You can't do shit as Maxi.

Skilled anyone > scrub, on-line Mitsu who "always falls for the same shit."

You don't even know what you're talking about.

Skill > Scrub > Plume.

Logic > HajimeOwari and Mailboxsomething.
Actually Mailbox, your logic is totally backwards. Reread your post in a few years and you'll /facepalm.

 

[pineapplejuice]

what if i had both? not that i do, but what if! i might quantum leap.

 

[Nukleurfire]

I think this is just an inherently confused thread.

 

[Soda]

Heh, Well everyone has their own opinion of What Skill is and what Talent is. Everyone also has their own opinion on whats better Skill or Talent...

This thread will never end!!!

 

[Twelve]

What if Hilde wins? Does that make the Hilde player better? No it does not.
But if Talim wins, then hell yeah Talim is the better player.

If the Hilde player wins, he is better at the Hilde/Talim match-up.
If the Talim player wins, he is better at the Hilde/Talim match-up.

Or one of them got lucky.

 

[spongebob]

The winner is not necessarily the better player.

Talim loses against Hilde. Do you think that the Hilde player is the better player because he can win with nothing else than one combo?
The most overpowered combo in the game, which can be done by anyone with ease.
Bubbletard Algol wins against Maxi. Do you think that the bubbletard is the better player because he can "win with only 5 moves and one combo"?
Maxi has no proper tools to deal with a bubblespam Algol. It's nearly impossible for Maxi to win.

Online, Mitsurugi is overly aggressive, very hard to stop. But whenever you manage to stop him for a while, he never blocks any of your slow lows and never sidesteps your ranged mids/highs. Never breaks your throws. Always falls for the same setup.
Basically his defense and basics are absolute trash.
Yet he wins because you're not Ivy or Kilik. You can't keep him away all day and stopping his endless random 50/50 online bullshit is extremely difficult for anyone.
Is he the better player?

That Mitsurugi example is terribly common. Terrible players who have no fucking defense... And yet they win most of the time simply because they're overly aggressive online.

There are favourable and unfavourable matchups. And there are tiers. And in the case of online play, there is lag.

yh i agree with this ppl have got to stop saying the better player is the winner sumtimes. And anyway can't who wins sumtimes be alot about luck aswell?

 

[Vegeta]

Skill vs. Talent. Depends. I know a guy that has skill cuz he can react to situations as they come but he has RIDICULOUS talent because stuff just clicks with him so fast and he has luck because stuff just.....works for him a LOT even if it's impossible or shouldn't have worked. That includes the strangest glitches I've ever and ONLY seen when he plays. Never the same one twice either. Works like that in EVERY game the dude plays. Kinda frustrating. I struggle a lot to get to where I am. Him though...he's something else.

 

[GATOR]

the point of the idea "the better player wins" is inherent to the definition of BETTER. Better: the superior one of two alternatives.

Therefore, on that given day in that given match, you lost... and the OTHER person played BETTER. Were they fancy? maybe not. Did they have more technical SKILL? maybe not. Did they EVEN have a better understanding of the game? maybe not. Overall could you be the more talented player? sure. But facts are facts. The BETTER player WON. Its in the definition homies.

That being said it is MY personal understanding that a TALENT is : a natural ability or qualities. a person who posses unusual innate abilities at something.

That being said, the person MIGHT actually be more talented than you. If I can beat you with the scrubbiest of scrub tactics... and YOU can't counter them. Then that means YOU LACK TALENT at the game. Maybe I still suck balls but YOU SUCK MORE BALLS THAN A MR. BUCKET GAME. Thats some serious teabaggin there... Talent is what comes before you start to learn the game. Talent is when two people pick up a controller to a game for the first time and player one sees an opening and HITS it. Talent is when a tall player and a short player are shooting hoops but the small guy is outrebounding the tall guy because the tall guy can't jump worth a DAMN while the tiny fella got HOPS. Talent is me going over to a person's house and beating them in starcraft the first time I ever palyed it just because my mind works on a different lvl than them when it comes to strategy. THOSE are TALENTS. A talent is not learned or engineered .. its just... THERE.

SKILL though... skill is the more complicated issue. SKill: an ability that is acquired through training

Seems rather simple and obvious. Someone that plays SC and goes onto the internet and learns a combo has skill. They have learned a combo which gains them an advantage over somenoe that has NOT learned that combo. Someone ELSE goes into practice mode and sucks at ducking highs. So they practice at it for a few hours and after a while they are able to judge well enough when ____ character is going to hit high. Lets say these two different ppl are training in order to play eachother and one person is using mitsu and the other ivy (to go with the OP's post). The person using ivy learns these combos and the person using mitsu learns to duck highs.

Okay.. so they go and play eachother. And the IVy does her combo and it hits the first time. From the first hit to the last hit... the person's execution is crisp and clean. THIS is skill. The next time the ivy is at that given range she starts up the first hit of the combo again. but this time the mitsu ducks the first hit and runs in and grabs the ivy. The ivy is confused and doesn't throw break. THIS is skill on the mitsu's part. As well as a small amount of talent. His TALENT was saying to himself "this person just moved into the same range as that last move... I bet she'll do it again." His SKILL was having ducked the move..something he PRACTICED to do.

Now the Ivy gets up and tries to do the same combo again to the same affect. And then stands up AGAIN and yet again.. tries the combo and it fails becuase she get's duck and punished. THIS shows the ivy players lack of TALENT. The ivy play has learned a skill to put towards the game but does NOT have the talent to do what is necessary to win. Lets say though that the Ivy player learned a second combo. This one hits MID though. The mitsu player hasn't practiced stepping. All of a sudden the Ivy uses this combo because she realized that her last few attempts at hittign with the other combo didn't work. DOING this other combo is SKILL. REALIZING to do it is TALENT. She then hits the mitsu and combos. She does it again and the mitsu ducks but this doesn't work. The Ivy player then switches back to the first duckable combo and the mitsu sees it reads it and ducks it. This is skill by the mitsu because he is simply doing what he trained himself to do...duck this high whenever it comes by.

now lets say the Ivy realizes at this point "hmm...every time I use combo A... it doesn't work. Every time I use combo B... it DOES work... I'll use ONLY combo B then until he does somethign that shows me I have a reason NOT to use it."

THAT MY FRIEND IS TALENT!! TALENT TALENT MOTHERFUCKING TAAAALLLEENT. It is the OBJECT of a fighting game to win. You play to get the opponent's health down to zero. Winning at ANY cost..gamewise...is the TALENTED INTELLIGENT thing to do. So that means that if the mitsu player doesn't have a resposne to this one combo..and loses... it was because he LACKED the talent to win the match. Sometimes its not even a matter of HAVING talent to determine who wins. A LOT of the time its whomever LACKS talent the most..lol.

In closing I'll reiterate for all of you. Talent = inherent ability to do well at something. Skill=the learned capacity or ability to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both.

so that means ... honestly... there IS no "ppl have their own definitions of what BLAH BLAH BLAH" ... skill is skill... talent is talent. They are completely different things. Now... saying which is BETTER is another issue entirely that I'd rather not get into right now lol.

 

[HajimeOwari]

I never talked about if Talim wins. Don't put things out of context.
What if Hilde wins? Does that make the Hilde player better? No it does not.
But if Talim wins, then hell yeah Talim is the better player.

So, a Talim player who can't beat a Hilde player spamming charges is the better player, even though the Talim player lost? That's stupid. That's like saying the Maxi player is a better player because he lost to a bubble shield because he didn't take the time to learn how to deal with it.

Yeah. Now what if it's not a scrub spamming? You can't do shit as Maxi.

This is what we call theory fighter. Assuming the Maxi and the Algol player are competent, the winner is the better player. But, we weren't talking theory. We were talking about skill and who the better player is against a five move, one combo Algol.

You don't even know what you're talking about.

If that Mitsu is just spamming and falling for the same stuff over and over, then why aren't you doing the same stuff over and over to win instead of trying to play mind games you clearly don't need to use? He's obviously the better player in that situation, because you know how to win, but for some reason fail to do so.

Logic > HajimeOwari and Mailboxsomething.

Logic is not equal to theory. And that's pretty much all you're spouting right now. While character match-ups do play a role in high level play, it's up to the players whether or not they can implement the proper tactics necessary win in those match-ups.

 

[Nukleurfire]

You are assuming that Talim=Hilde. Your statement

So, a Talim player who can't beat a Hilde player spamming charges is the better player, even though the Talim player lost? That's stupid.

is equivalent to saying that if we got into a fight, and you brought a gun and I didn't, and I lost, that you are a better fighter? Or if I had broken my arm the previous week? Is picking a higher-tiered character a skill?