AMillionHP
[13] Hero
Lets prioritize missing 2, 3 and 4 characters first before considering anything from 5.
Soul Calibur VI: General discussion
- Thread starter SSfox
- Start date
Crash X
[14] Master
I’d actually prefer Viola over Amy honestly.
I know, controversial opinion over here. Sue me for saying such a thing.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
I feel like it's pretty obvious we'd pick up Yun-seong, Setsuka, Hilde, and Algol before getting anyone else. Hwang goes back home to his old pal Li Long and new buddy Rock, and they make a reservation for Aeon, just in case, who is the only real questionable inclusion really. And if they don't end up moving in the lizard, then I'm sure that Dampierre might can make use of the space instead. The kids are physically incapable of existing, and Z.W.E.I. and Viola may already be represented, for all we know. So there's not really anything left in SoulCalibur V to bring in, except maybe Elysium...
Robert_J_King
Royal Impact Style
I honestly feel like she's useless without malfestation or magic.
Project Bokuho
[14] Master
RaphMcSorel
[10] Knight
Yeah, like when she killed that guy during Raph's story... totally useless. We all know characters that grow up in a harsh environment, in the midst of a fantasy world, are unable to fend for themselves. Especially characters that are trained under the tutelage of an experienced fencer.
Last edited:
AMillionHP
[13] Hero
I’d actually prefer Viola over Amy honestly.
I know, controversial opinion over here. Sue me for saying such a thing.
I probably would have liked her a bit more if they didnt use Amy to do it. I mean.... why? Like let me go change Mitsurugi into a Paladin just because.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
It's a lose-lose situation. People complain about clones, people complain when they de-clone a character too hard. There's just no winning. I'm sure if they had changed Cassandra into the longsword style as was said to have been the plan for her in SoulCalibur V, then some people wouldn't have been happy with that. If they change her up in SoulCalibur VI and use a spear instead of a sword, some people probably won't be happy with that, either.
But, like so many other things in SoulCalibur V, if the story was finished, the characters were fleshed out, and they explained anything that happened, then it's quite possible that people would have been more receptive to the changes/replacements/etc. As it was, we got hardly any justification for anything.
Nyte
Fu-ma's Shadow
I don't even get why some people want SCV characters so bad. We did this entire reboot to get away from it, and we're unlikely to ever go back, so why on Earth would anyone want any of that in?
AMillionHP
[13] Hero
This will all boil down to popularity of a character. Changing anything about a popular character will inevitably piss off more people than it satisfies. Its a more acceptable practice with less popular characters such as Rock or Lizardman.
I dont think any amount of explanations would have excused losing a favorite character for most players. This is why they should have used that opportunity to wipe the cast clean and remake new characters. I suppose that would have been a lot more work and we would have a much smaller roster because of it.... but they would be new.
Its the replacements most people dont like. They think Zwei and Viola are exempt. I dont want any of it.
Last edited:
Crash X
[14] Master
It’s really only ZWEI and Viola that they are asking for. The others are just thrown under the bus. I can honestly understand why they’d want to see them again. They did have unique fighting styles, even if they weren’t the most balanced ones out there.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
I mean, I legitimately liked Natsu more than Taki, and I've seen other people who agree with that sentiment, but the fact remains that Natsu isn't born yet as of the timeline of SoulCalibur VI, so it would be literally impossible for her to show up.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Oh, dude, for real? Look, I can't think of a way to say this that won't be at least a -little- grating, so I'm going to go ahead and go with the metaphor that most immediately occurs to me: When we are all having a conversation about which characters/styles should be included and at what point, and you add to it that you don't think such and such character would be able to compete against such and such character...it's like an ongoing discussion about our favourite music was interrupted by someone announcing which graham cracker they like best. I mean, clearly everyone in the room is opinionated, but some arguments I dare say are more menaingful to a discussion about a game.
And hey, don't get me wrong, I love a good story. In fact I'd go so far as to say that life revolves around good stories. But friend, Soul Calibur isn't that and it never was! It is some high-octane, crazy ass nonsense spat at you in ludicrous prose and set to a full orchestra, as all manner of mayhem and goofiness ensue, in splitting story lines all of which are dubiousy consistent with the next entry in the franchise! But what can I say, it's my brand of crazy. I love it to bits, since I can let go of any real expectations of it. In fact, one of the most endearing feartures of the story is that it encourages you to just tune everything else out and engage in the mechanics. I mean it has a great visual style overlaid that I love, but at the end of the day, the underlying game is what is most important. Besides homie, with a game where someone can put a ten foot sword straight through midsection of their opponent--you know, bisecting the spine?-- a couple of dozen times before they go down (well, lay down to catch a breather for a moment, anyway), I think it's safe to say every character has equally absurd justification to be considered tough.
So I think you'll find that when most people talk about whether Amy should be in or not, they aren't really talking about which period of lore she should hale from. They are talking about the moveset: that sweet, sweet indescribale je n'ais c'est quoi of a particular groove of a particular -playable- character that just feels right in your hands. The pacing, the anticipation, the ideas about how to set your opponent up for punishment. Oh god, I love it so much, it can't be normal.
Anyway, to the extent that the story is guiding what gets in thematically here--and it clearly is important to Namco to try to mollify the bush league as to story, and have made a modest effort to retell the original narrative with a tighter continuity and to try to make its lore somehow compelling after said fictional world not taking too much time to take itself seriously for twenty plus years. Honestly, I almost weep every time I think of how many resources (that could have gone into expanding other elements of the game instead) went into creating those undending hours of monotonous static sketch scenes with their purposeless banter delivered by literally and figuratively two-dimensional characters, in uninspired, mind-numbingly, stupifyingly boring plots. Basically they kept all the crazy and shook out all of the fun of letting you enjoying it through gameplay. Greeeeeaaaat.... Everyone wanted Soul Calibur to be a visual novel, right?
Errr...anyway, getting back to what I was saying, to the extent plot continuity has become important to their rebranding efforts after V, that's the very thing that makes it very clear you haven't a chance of getting Viola. Presuming she is Amy, that variation makes no sense to the set-up here--and indeed contravenes every single thing every developer has said about their approach to this game and every little bit of material in the actual content of the actual story of the actual game so far. It isn't gonna happen. And on the gameplay level, I can understand someone being bummed at the thought that her style might be set aside for a good while now. She was unique. I felt like she was one of the bright spots of the otherwise questionable roster choices (and yes, to some extent, the related story and continuity choices ) that they made with that game.
Actually while we're at it, let's talk about how bizarre and rushed that whole catastrophe felt? And I don't mean because it didn't feature enough stories from enough of the cast. I eventually got to telling people to get lost with that complaint; if you get 60 hours out of a Soul Calibur story (and I don't think any give you near that much), you'd still be talking about a single digit percentage of what I'm going to put into multiplayer and training. I hate to be all elitist about it, but shit, I'm a pretty loyal consumer here, 21 years in, I think--can that be right?--so I feel entitled to preach about priorities. But anyway: no, it wasn't that the game felt rushed in the sense that they ran out of time to do everything they wanted, it felt more like they started out knowing they weren't going to be given enough time, brought in a new director who also wasn't given time to adjust his thinking on his design approach from his previous franchise and then began to make bad decisions in a panic, and never had enough time to go back and re-assess them and put some time into exploring alternatives.
Exhibit one: that dumbass story, its mostly puerile new characters, and what those choices meant for the roster. Look, at this point I think it's appropriate to note that, with the benefit of time, I've been able to accept SCV as a meaningful entry in the series and celebrate it for those things that it actually does pretty well (like balance, and customizability and matchmaking features), but holy moly were there some bizzarre choices when it came to the cast. I like to think at some point a month and a half into development someone said this to a fellow employee:
"Ok, so let's get this straight, we're making a new entry in the franchise and we want to make it newer and edgier and more anime/manga in visual style and storytelling, so we're gonna advance the story some years, so everybody would be a bit older and more seasoned, and then--we're gonna cut out most of our younger cast who would have been coming into their prime at this time? Oh, but we're going to keep the majority of the older cast--Ivy's looking pretty good for 65--her bdsm calesthenics treat her well, I guess. But a bunch of the characters who were kind of in the middle bracket age-wise have been replaced by knock-off analogs that no one asked for--so we can make them do basically the old style but, you know, goofier for a lot of them. But all of the really young ones have been axed. I was thinking at first it might be interesting to update them to more mature versions of themselves, visually and stylistically, you know? But the last guy who brought it up got torn a new one regarding deadlines, so if it's on the storyboards it's good for me. Go! Oh, and don't forget, Kilik and Sophitia are mimics now, even though we have Edge Master back. Why? What did I just say?"
Viola is at the heart of that problem. Look, I like her design and (as you know is more important to me at this point) I like her playstyle--it was a highlight in the gameplay--which, like most other areas of that game, left me with very mixed feelings. But why did she have to come at the expense of a variation on Amy's fighting style that could have been truly killer? That crystal ball weapon and amnesiac storyteller narrative could have been given to a completely new character, and apparently at one point she was planned as a Romani gypsy, which would have brought a new culture into the fold--which, being in a Soul Calibur game isn't a huge win for diversity, but it's kind of nice when a new character is noticeably not Northern European or Japanese. Of course we don't know for sure Viola is in fact Amy in story terms. Personally, I tend to think the art assets send a pretty clear signal, but at the end of the day it is a trivial concern for me: whatever the reason, leaving Amy and Talim out of that entry was game design negligence! Viola's style was a novel one that I enjoyed. Amy's is a masterpiece that feels like pure poetry in motion when I'm sitting in the pocket with her epee. Why would you want to repeat that injustice? Do you want to hurt me? What kind of blindly hurtful animal are you?
Errr, anyway, you're not getting Viola, and we're getting Amy. Live with it. :P
( @Robert_J_King, for the record, I'm just using you as a foil (and straw man in places); I hope that was obvious--like Soul Calibur's plot, my assertions about contrary opinions are best viewed through a lens of skepticism. humour, and above all, indulgence. ;)
Last edited:
damn-I-Suck
[12] Conqueror
couldn't have said it better myself
damn-I-Suck
[12] Conqueror
@Rusted Blade
Dude, every post you make is TL:DR. That last post you made was the first one that I actually read all the way through. I agree with pretty much everything you said, and you have good writing and vocabulary. BBUUUTTT if you want people to actually read it, you should think about trimming the fat a little. Your entire post could have been summed up in a single paragraph, would have had more readers and 'likes', and the message will actually get across to people.
The first person who stated that they want viola back, I already knew it wasn't gonna happen because that was the whole point of this reboot. And I guarantee you more people hated viola than liked her, of course I'm strickly talking about move sets here.
Namco got wise and realized that appealing to nostalgic old school fans like myself was the right business move. I started with sc2 and I'm 35 years old. The returning cast and the movement speed being closer to sc2's, as well as the return of Soul Charge (even though it's different now), was clearly evidence of this. They realized they fucked up with SC5 both with the story and the roster, and the only way to recover was to go back in time and start over. IF this isn't evidence that SC5 was a complete misstep then I don't know what is.
You say that scv had good balance. Don't take offense when I call bullshit. Viola had an infinite back throw, Raphael was completely useless, Siegfried was ass, Alpha Pat had an i8 CE that combo's from 2A on NORMAL HIT. I actually find it quite hilarious when people claim it's balanced just because it was more balanced than 3 or 4, those aren't even worth comparing IMO. The balance in 3 and 4 (hilde and variable cancel) was SOOO bad, that just about any other fighting game was better. 5 was only marginally better, but still a complete mess.
Fast forward to sc6. I'm finding it incredibly difficult to identify low tiers. Everyone seems not just viable, but actually GOOD. Every character in this game is capable of BS shenanigans and can impose their will to some extent.
And there I was complaining about long posts and there I go making a big post, lol.
Anyway, it was just a friendly suggestion, and the end of the day, you do you.
Dude, every post you make is TL:DR. That last post you made was the first one that I actually read all the way through. I agree with pretty much everything you said, and you have good writing and vocabulary. BBUUUTTT if you want people to actually read it, you should think about trimming the fat a little. Your entire post could have been summed up in a single paragraph, would have had more readers and 'likes', and the message will actually get across to people.
The first person who stated that they want viola back, I already knew it wasn't gonna happen because that was the whole point of this reboot. And I guarantee you more people hated viola than liked her, of course I'm strickly talking about move sets here.
Namco got wise and realized that appealing to nostalgic old school fans like myself was the right business move. I started with sc2 and I'm 35 years old. The returning cast and the movement speed being closer to sc2's, as well as the return of Soul Charge (even though it's different now), was clearly evidence of this. They realized they fucked up with SC5 both with the story and the roster, and the only way to recover was to go back in time and start over. IF this isn't evidence that SC5 was a complete misstep then I don't know what is.
You say that scv had good balance. Don't take offense when I call bullshit. Viola had an infinite back throw, Raphael was completely useless, Siegfried was ass, Alpha Pat had an i8 CE that combo's from 2A on NORMAL HIT. I actually find it quite hilarious when people claim it's balanced just because it was more balanced than 3 or 4, those aren't even worth comparing IMO. The balance in 3 and 4 (hilde and variable cancel) was SOOO bad, that just about any other fighting game was better. 5 was only marginally better, but still a complete mess.
Fast forward to sc6. I'm finding it incredibly difficult to identify low tiers. Everyone seems not just viable, but actually GOOD. Every character in this game is capable of BS shenanigans and can impose their will to some extent.
And there I was complaining about long posts and there I go making a big post, lol.
Anyway, it was just a friendly suggestion, and the end of the day, you do you.
sytus
[14] Master
This. Rusted Blade you seem nice but I very rarely read your posts due to how loaded they are. You're a wordsmith for sure it's just that some of us aren't and find long post exhausting to read.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
It's cool, Dude, taken in the good spirits it was intended, I assure you. That said, I'm quite happy with the length. I feel people that understand the good natured but exhasperated tone of that post will understand why those thoughts belong together in a diatribe. People can read it or not. When it comes to literally the sum total of every use I put my time to in my daily life, posting to a forum about a video game, even my favourite video game, is about as low stakes as it comes. My posts are short or long (ok, mostly long) depending on how much I am enjoying the process of engaging with a given mechanic or design feature or the question of how the series has evolved, as in that megapost; I have no desire to customize them to encourage a high volume of response. And anyway, that post is gonna get a like or three, I betcha. :)
Buuuut, you have some points as to balance--though a lot of those issues got patched up. Well, some of them... Look Dude, cut me some slack, I'm trying not to look like all I can do is shit all over that game. ;) I wish it had been much different, but you know, now that we are more or less back on course, I feel more inclined to be gracious and appreciate some of it's novel features. Actually, I have felt that way about it for a couple of years now, once my disappointment wore off and continued to play it sporadically (though admitedly at nowhere near the level of II through IV). And yeah, it was more balanced than III and maybe IV, and that wasn't nothing! It's likely to always be my least favourite game in the franchise, in terms of how good it was relative to the date of its release, but if you view it as a standalone fighter, try to ignore the standards of the rest of the series, it holds up! That's what I've decided anyway. It helps that it sits neglected on a console that never gets booted up anymore and I finally have a new, more or less satisfying entry...and Amy is on the horizon!
Ah, well thank you for putting it that way, Sytus. That's one of the classiest ways I've ever seen someone say "Where's your off switch?" ;) Well, it's food for my thought. :)
Last edited:
darkfender
[10] Knight
as i said i quit at second patch..
last (third) patch came so late than most people was already gone...
And sorry to tell you there is NO WAY that raph was anything but trash tier.... due to objective reasons.
(QSG)... or now you will tell me that playing literally (when i say literally i really mean it...) with only 2A makes a character viable
explained why raph only lives off those i10....
Change them and there is no reason to not switch to yoshi or other characters.
...........................................
If you believe so.... on the real world they are +0
Without iprep they are from -2 to -6 with a single exception being at +8.
Being at +12 woud mean you cannot block a prep because you would be HIT ON BLOCK with BB
StepG
step starts at i4 and ends at i12....at +0 you can catch it only with A.... i14 so......
can give you this... i rarely use RE due to a personal hate against the mechanic so i am totally not qualified on the subject.
I only use it as a hard counter against a couple of strings.
and after the +12 on block now we should rewrite statystic it seems....
agree but namco Always Patches on tournament players...
Step, duck, AA, and TC.
wrBB is NOT a pressure option.
so raph is a scrub killer now?
Yes raph is safe on block...
As said has a huge problem against step G (so against COMPETENT players).
You can work around it and bait and punish.......
But no way raph is S tier.... expecially when a high damage character can get advantage of damage difference by guessimg random steps and duck.
Leonhart
[10] Knight
I feel SCVI is relatively balanced, especially compared to previous games. But then again, once in a while, you fight someone who is so hilariously strong with a character - as in you-don't-stand-a-chance-despite-being-REAL GOOD - and these characters have been talked about alot in this forum.
I think part of the problem lies in all the extra gunk like CE differentiations with auto-GIs and 360 hits, varying damage and startup frames, and way to many unreactable lows with RO potential. But also this mantra that the entire roster should be super strong this time around. This is just my theory but I do think they'd have an easier time achieving a more consensual balance if they toned down some specific "advantages" and made systems more uniform across the board. Not a major nerf party, just file down the needless edges.
I think part of the problem lies in all the extra gunk like CE differentiations with auto-GIs and 360 hits, varying damage and startup frames, and way to many unreactable lows with RO potential. But also this mantra that the entire roster should be super strong this time around. This is just my theory but I do think they'd have an easier time achieving a more consensual balance if they toned down some specific "advantages" and made systems more uniform across the board. Not a major nerf party, just file down the needless edges.
Last edited:
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Preciesely. Just as it's long been a thing for some top players to adopt "low tier" characters for tournaments just to catch the competition off guard, because that player is good enough to make them work and gets an edge from playing someone his closest competitors have relatively less competitive experience managing, I often found this was the case with high level play for IV and V generally. I made a good friend online through IV because he mained Rock so hard (again, this can't be stressed enough, in SCIV) that he might as well of had access to an infinite combo. To this day, I've never seen anyone do nearly as much with Rock (or Beserker to go back to the most recent version, SCII HD)--or Asta, for that matter.
I agree with all of this. The devs obviously looked for inspiration in the most generally respected game of the franchise to date, SCII. And that game had exactly what you describe here: everyone was a powerhouse. But the different context is noteworthy--SCII had ultra step-guard, so everyobody had to be able to open a can of whoopas when they found their opening. Here, it just feels like the core roster is comprised of mostly glass cannons and...you know, just some regular damn cannons. So most matches are really fun--as fun as they've been in a long, long while--but the ones that aren't so fun can make your eyes roll so hard you strain them.