Ukkesh
[13] Hero
I liked Leixia...
Soul Calibur VI: General discussion
- Thread starter SSfox
- Start date
Project Bokuho
[14] Master
Can you people take this to the PMs? It's free.
Nyte
Fu-ma's Shadow
@DanteSC3
You always say "if the replacements were explained more, no one would hate them!". No. Patroklos got all the explanation we needed, and everyone hated him.
I'm not sure if you've seen this, but Zasalamel's secret chapter confirms this is a hard reboot. He doesn't enact his plan to achieve death, ending before it ever even started, and instead plans to bring about a new future by collecting the two swords because he received a vision from his future self, perhaps his alternate timeline self...
So yeah, don't expect the events to fall exactly into place that'll lead up to SCV. Wouldn't be surprised if Zas saves Sophitia from death in SCVII.
You always say "if the replacements were explained more, no one would hate them!". No. Patroklos got all the explanation we needed, and everyone hated him.
I'm not sure if you've seen this, but Zasalamel's secret chapter confirms this is a hard reboot. He doesn't enact his plan to achieve death, ending before it ever even started, and instead plans to bring about a new future by collecting the two swords because he received a vision from his future self, perhaps his alternate timeline self...
So yeah, don't expect the events to fall exactly into place that'll lead up to SCV. Wouldn't be surprised if Zas saves Sophitia from death in SCVII.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
It would be a fruitless endeavor. Nyte isn't going to believe me and I'm not going to believe Nyte. We simply see things too differently to agree.
@Nyte If you think I haven't seen that, then you certainly didn't pay attention to your timeline diverging thread. I discussed these points with @TresDias and @Rusted Blade long after you had abandoned that thread when people didn't agree with your stance. I expect the same thing to happen with your thread about Stone not being Rock, that you'll abandon it because your opinion is not shared by many others, which is why I haven't bothered responding to it, since I don't take pleasure in having these arguments with you.
For those of us who have paid attention to the lore at length, in not just this game, but all of the games, see SoulCalibur VI as a retelling of the original events, with a hybridization of ideas that weren't introduced until later in the series, in the interests of creating a cohesive narrative, not changing history. If the continuing story does anything other than have Siegfried freed from Nightmare by Raphael (which was confirmed in Amy's trailer), Zasalamel reviving Nightmare to pursue his plan, his plan failing, creating Night Terror (maybe Abyss, but this isn't guaranteed), awakening Algol, who erects the Tower of Remembrance and the swords come to blows once more with Algol in the center, then I'll take a picture of myself with a chicken on my head while also simultaneously eating my hat.
Nyte
Fu-ma's Shadow
I abandoned the thread because you ruined it. I wanted to talk about how the story would be different and you turned it into a shitshow of you saying that it'll be exactly the same even though it won't. It's mind-numbing. No one at Project Soul is dumb enough to return to SCV, because evidently no one at PS even wanted that vision except Daishi, who quit in 2013 (he works at Sega now).
And uh, hello? The wide community has long accepted that this is a reboot. It's just people like you who like SCV so much that you can't accept it. What was even appealing about it anyways? It was a game the series needed to be saved from.
Don't hold yourself to that, because I won't forget this. When SCVII comes around, and it turns out to be a diverging timeline as show by Zasalamel's secret chapter here, I'll happily bring this up no matter how long it's been.
And uh, hello? The wide community has long accepted that this is a reboot. It's just people like you who like SCV so much that you can't accept it. What was even appealing about it anyways? It was a game the series needed to be saved from.
Don't hold yourself to that, because I won't forget this. When SCVII comes around, and it turns out to be a diverging timeline as show by Zasalamel's secret chapter here, I'll happily bring this up no matter how long it's been.
Azul Hurricane
[10] Knight
Klimat
[13] Hero
My prediction is that SC7 will retell SC2 and 3 timelines, leaving SC2 events mostly unchanged, yet progressively going off the rails with SC3 stuff. Also no need to go heavily into SC4 territory. They might unleash Algol right in the epilogue to excuse his inclusion in the roster, yet don't do anything else with him story-wise, leaving it for the sequel.
The key change is Zasalamel seeking both swords not to kill himself, but "to cultivate the potential that people possess and lead them to a glorious new future".
"A glorious new future" might be a wink to the audience meaning not SCV future
.
"To cultivate the potential that people possess" might mean Zasalamel messing with the main cast, testing them in different ways, maybe pitting characters one against the other is some kind of a tournament, a classic fighting game trope that SC managed to avoid so far, but maybe not for too long...
The key change is Zasalamel seeking both swords not to kill himself, but "to cultivate the potential that people possess and lead them to a glorious new future".
"A glorious new future" might be a wink to the audience meaning not SCV future
."To cultivate the potential that people possess" might mean Zasalamel messing with the main cast, testing them in different ways, maybe pitting characters one against the other is some kind of a tournament, a classic fighting game trope that SC managed to avoid so far, but maybe not for too long...
Crash X
[14] Master
Do you even know what a Mary Sue is? A Mary Sue is a character that is seen as a perfect character with no flaws. And with Pat he has plenty of flaws with his character and it’s shown in the story. He’s manipulated by Nightmare into killing civilians. Same by Elysium into killing his sister by preying on his hatred towards the malfested. If he was a Mary Sue he would’ve seen through their deception without any help. He gets his ass handed to him by ZWEI and struggles against Nightmare to which he and Soul Calibur would have died if Pyrrha didn’t step in (due to him being in shock at the truth of his own actions). He didn’t know what to do when Pyrrha became malfested and it was through guidance of Elysium and ZWEI he was able to find his answer. When he kills Pyrrha he ends up in Astral Chaos and regrets her death at his hand. Edge Master even tells him not to let Calibur wield him and that he should be wielding the sword should he wish to correct his mistake. Plus, he’s impulsive, hotheaded, and lets vengeance cloud his judgement and prevents him from seeing the bigger picture of things. If he were a Mary Sue he wouldn’t have been struggling with any of these things.
TL;DR: Pat has faults in his character. Nuff said.
Last edited:
Nyte
Fu-ma's Shadow
I like all of that except the tournament part. That would just be lazy writing.My prediction is that SC7 will retell SC2 and 3 timelines, leaving SC2 events mostly unchanged, yet progressively going off the rails with SC3 stuff. Also no need to go heavily into SC4 territory. They might unleash Algol right in the epilogue to excuse his inclusion in the roster, yet don't do anything else with him story-wise, leaving it for the sequel.
The key change is Zasalamel seeking both swords not to kill himself, but "to cultivate the potential that people possess and lead them to a glorious new future".
"A glorious new future" might be a wink to the audience meaning not SCV future
"To cultivate the potential that people possess" might mean Zasalamel messing with the main cast, testing hem in different ways, maybe pitting characters one against the other is some kind of a tournament, a classic fighting game trope that SC managed to avoid so far, but maybe not for too long...
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Look, I personally couldn't care less about the story of this series; I've always said its pulp shclock, and that the one primary benefit is that it is so easily dismissable that it doesn't get in the way of whatever is done for gameplay's sake. Please keep that in mind so it doesn't seem like I'm going to Dante's assistance with her Zwei=Groh concept--in truth I think it's very ulikely and I've told her as much.
All of that said, dude, you need to chill on this. What is really hurt by her advancing a nerdy theory about a couple of make-believe emos who are themselves arguably the most embarrassing thing to happen to the series ever, regardless of whether or not they are the same person? Freaking out and demanding that she ought to stop forwarding that theory (for...reasons?) is not the healthy response here. Nor is accusing Dante of ruining your threads; you're the one who titled that thread (if I recall correctly) "How much will the timeline diverge", or something to that effect. If you weren't looking to engage with your fellow casual story nuts about that asinine narrative, why ask the question?
If you think Dante's theories are risible, well by all means have fun with tearing them down. I get a lot of mileage out of My Chemical Romance jokes every time Groh comes up. But seriously, feeling like you need to defend the emo avenger (of all possible creative design features) against perversion of his plot line is just...a very sad hill to die on.
Daishi is at Sega now? God lord, I really, really hope that if they ever make a new Virtua Fighter nobody even momentarily contemplates handing him the reigns. Please, please no; I haven't waited this long for a VF6 just to have it ruined by a super meter and anime reversal powers.
But uh, more to the point of your comments, I think you might be wrong about SCV. I don't know how close the events will parallel those of the "original timeline" in the final analysis--and moreover, I can't think of a single thing (or even a single thing related to Soul Calibur specifically) that I care less about. But I'd be surprised if, eventually, we don't see some of those faces SCV return. SCVI covered a lot of ground, story wise; at this pace of the retelling, they get a couple more games at best before they are faced with the conundrum of whether to replicate SCV.
More tellingly, the allusions to Viola in Amy's trailer make it clear they are certainly contemplating where things go with regard to the SCV thematics. I happen to agree with you broadly about the quality of the characters introduced in SCV; I often call them the SCV Edgelords (see what I did there? So clever..). I certainly am in no hurry to see the return of the likes of Xiba, Patrokolos, and especially Zwei--a character so profoundly dumb in both concept and execution, I feel almost offended that they expect me to take extra effort in typing out his name like an acronym. But uh, quite a few of us fondly remember Viola, Natsu, and Leixia--or more specifically, their movesets. I mean, I love Taki, but I find Natsu to be, by a significant margin, the funner variation on that type of moveset. I don't think you'll find much support for your position by lumping some of those characters in with the SCV hate, since they often serve the silver lining to an otherwise largely disappointing entry in the series.
Last edited:
Nyte
Fu-ma's Shadow
@Rusted Blade
What do you mean? Leixia was lower than even Patroklos on the poll and Taki outplaced Natsu by a very wide margin. Now, I know the poll isn't the end-all-be-all, but that's a good microcosm of public perception. Fans preferred the classic characters over the newcomers, as if that needed to be stated. I'm just tired of her spreading around her theories like it's fact, and she's so convinced we're going back to SCV that it offends me. The series should never go back to that era, because if it was "just fine", then it wouldn't have rebooted itself with Okubo even saying it's because Namco didn't want to make another game if it was going to be like it.
I mean, SC just won the goodwill of the entire fanbase, something that's been lacking for many, many years. So I get touchy when someone suggests just throwing it all away for no good reason. The status quo should revolve around the original cast, not some wannabe replacements no one likes.
What do you mean? Leixia was lower than even Patroklos on the poll and Taki outplaced Natsu by a very wide margin. Now, I know the poll isn't the end-all-be-all, but that's a good microcosm of public perception. Fans preferred the classic characters over the newcomers, as if that needed to be stated. I'm just tired of her spreading around her theories like it's fact, and she's so convinced we're going back to SCV that it offends me. The series should never go back to that era, because if it was "just fine", then it wouldn't have rebooted itself with Okubo even saying it's because Namco didn't want to make another game if it was going to be like it.
I mean, SC just won the goodwill of the entire fanbase, something that's been lacking for many, many years. So I get touchy when someone suggests just throwing it all away for no good reason. The status quo should revolve around the original cast, not some wannabe replacements no one likes.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
That's the part where you're misinterpreting my beliefs. You assume that my prediction that we'll go back to SoulCalibur V means that we will repeat the past mistake of cutting the cast. That's not true. They won't be throwing away anything if we continue at the same pace that we're on right now, keeping what we have instead of letting things go. As I've mentioned elsewhere about the roster, my hope/dream is that we keep everyone from SoulCalibur VI, including the DLC folks, moving to SoulCalibur VII, and continue to add more. This would extend to SoulCalibur VIII, where I would see us revisiting SoulCalibur V events, keeping the old guard, while also adding new characters. This was normal all the way up to SoulCalibur V, with the exception of Hwang and Li Long not making the cut for SoulCalibur IV. But by that point, they didn't have the best of track records anyway.
They have more than proven that they are capable of making varied movesets with the same weapons, so there's no reason why we couldn't have older versions (or not, if they get Ivy's alchemical concoctions) of the cast along with their younger progeny. We can bring back Patroklos, Pyrrha, Leixia, Natsu, and even Xiba, and have them coexist with their forebears. It was a mistake to cut the originals, they understand it was a mistake to cut the originals, but if Mortal Kombat can have the old mixed with the new, and Tekken manages to do this too, then there's no reason why SoulCalibur can't also accomplish the same. Or are you even against that idea, do you hate the kids that much, that their existence, even with the continued existence of the original cast, would also manage to ruin the good graces?
And I'll repeat again, I do not present what I believe will happen as fact. I think you've got me mixed up with Frayhua.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
I honestly don't think that it is, even remotely. A few hundred people participated in that poll; that's roughly .000001% of all people who have ever played a Soul Calibur game. That's well below the threshold for statistical relevance. The poll was a marketing effort to begin seeding interest in an eventual follow-up; Namco is a Forbes 2000 company with all the serious market research resources that entails--they wouldn't rely on such weak empirical evidence for any reliable indication of the relative attachment of players to particular characters, and neither should you.
Well that much is certainly true. But whatever PS's reasoning, they seem to be headed towards reconstituting at least some of that cast at a later date. It's hard to read the Viola details in Amy's trailer any other way. And while I hope their approach is measured and well thought out, I honestly can think of worse things than getting some of those movesets back. I may think the aesthetics of the new characters were not great, but Viola, Natsu and Leixia's movesets were killer--some of the better things about V.
But why, man? Why would that offend you? especially if you're so convinced it's not going to happen? And anyway, the reason SCV was a problem was because it was a weak game (on the whole--it had a lot of positive things going for it too, even if the bad changes did far outweigh the good), not because it was a weak story. It's not like they are going to bring the same creative team back even if they do revisit those events, so what does it really matter so long as the gameplay is solid and they don't kick out half the established characters the second time around?
Yeah, but it's not like Okubo is sitting at his desk watching this forum and was gonna make SCVII a remake of SCIII and SCIV, but now he's gonna skip straight to SCV because Dante suggested it. Let her have her fantasies about Zwei being Groh after he changed to a different colour of emo hair dye. It's going to have zero real-world impact, and (as you said) if you really feel like it, five years from now you'll be able to give her an "I told you so"--though frankly, I hope we all live interesting enough lives in the intergnum to have completely forgotten this conversation by then, because the alternative is too sad to ponder. :)
Last edited:
Nyte
Fu-ma's Shadow
@DanteSC3
Yeah, I just don't see it. Patroklos is widely seen as the worst protagonist ever, and he's from a game with no shortage of bad characters. Better to just introduce brand new characters that'll hopefully endear themselves to audiences. I wager Azwel is more popular with fans than all the SCV kids put together, so that's a start.
Yeah, I just don't see it. Patroklos is widely seen as the worst protagonist ever, and he's from a game with no shortage of bad characters. Better to just introduce brand new characters that'll hopefully endear themselves to audiences. I wager Azwel is more popular with fans than all the SCV kids put together, so that's a start.
Fatal_Exodus
[14] Master
Nyte
Fu-ma's Shadow
A few hundred? Over 10,000 people voted, which is more than how some statistics across the United States are formed. It's a good demonstration, and let me be clear that it's not the ultimate proof (I said as much), but it's good enough. I just get offended by people who say things like that, because I have every right to hate SCV. It nearly killed the series, and was the game that made us wait so much longer for a proper sequel to be made. I'll never forget that.
As for Viola? It's entirely possible she could just be rebooted in the New Timeline without the time skip. Not too hard to do.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
The inherent flaw with that Facebook poll was still the fact that you were only able to pick one character, which is not, in and of itself, telling of a person's overall opinion of the series or the other characters. I didn't partake in the poll, but if I did, I would have voted Seong Mi-na, Hwang, Amy, Raphael, or Xianghua. It would have been a hard choice, even among those, because I have many reasons for liking each of these characters, for their moveset, their story, their appearance, or anything else inbetween that I haven't mentioned. But let's say I ended up voting for Hwang. This doesn't mean that I hate everyone else on the poll, or feel like Hwang is unquestionably better than everyone on the poll, even. It's only natural that the new characters in SoulCalibur V wouldn't gain votes, because SoulCalibur V was an incomplete mess of a game that didn't paint a full picture for any of its new characters, except perhaps for Patroklos and Pyrrha, and that's even a maybe, because there would have certainly been more events to happen in the aftermath.
If all you have to go by is a character's appearance and moveset, and maybe some hints at their personality from dialogue snippets, then you literally can't feel as strongly for that character, as opposed to a character who has a full backstory and historical relevance through several titles. A new character in a fighting game has to, in the same game they're introduced, establish their relevancy and relation to everything that has come before. Viola, Z.W.E.I., Leixia, Natsu, and Xiba did not accomplish this task, so other than liking the limited amount of data you have and your possible projections for their future, there's just no possible way that you can fairly judge these characters, because they aren't fully explained or established. I can't really understand voting for these characters unless you really enjoyed their moveset and what they brought to the table from a gameplay standpoint, because that's all they really offered. And in that respect, it's not surprising that Leixia placed so low, because her moveset was extremely derivative of Xianghua and Hwang, while Natsu was more of a Yun-seong brash revisit to Taki's style and Xiba was a more Monkey King folk legend and silly interpretation of Kilik's style.
But you'll notice that of my top 5 considerations for voting in the poll, none of them were SoulCalibur V characters. But, despite that, I still realize the potential of the SoulCalibur V characters, and believe that if they are given a fair chance, which SoulCalibur V was not, they could establish themselves and even develop a fanbase, especially if they coexist with those who came before. So you couldn't have interpreted the poll to take my meaning at all.
If all you have to go by is a character's appearance and moveset, and maybe some hints at their personality from dialogue snippets, then you literally can't feel as strongly for that character, as opposed to a character who has a full backstory and historical relevance through several titles. A new character in a fighting game has to, in the same game they're introduced, establish their relevancy and relation to everything that has come before. Viola, Z.W.E.I., Leixia, Natsu, and Xiba did not accomplish this task, so other than liking the limited amount of data you have and your possible projections for their future, there's just no possible way that you can fairly judge these characters, because they aren't fully explained or established. I can't really understand voting for these characters unless you really enjoyed their moveset and what they brought to the table from a gameplay standpoint, because that's all they really offered. And in that respect, it's not surprising that Leixia placed so low, because her moveset was extremely derivative of Xianghua and Hwang, while Natsu was more of a Yun-seong brash revisit to Taki's style and Xiba was a more Monkey King folk legend and silly interpretation of Kilik's style.
But you'll notice that of my top 5 considerations for voting in the poll, none of them were SoulCalibur V characters. But, despite that, I still realize the potential of the SoulCalibur V characters, and believe that if they are given a fair chance, which SoulCalibur V was not, they could establish themselves and even develop a fanbase, especially if they coexist with those who came before. So you couldn't have interpreted the poll to take my meaning at all.
Rex Dart
[12] Conqueror
That popularity poll was the worst thing ever inflicted upon the SC series. Yes, worse than Lost Swords.
Nyte
Fu-ma's Shadow
How so? And also, dude that is such a low remark. Damn, why you do that?
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Well, of course you're entitled to dislike it--and you don't even need to rely on the damage it did to the reputation of the franchise to do so. But by the same token, Dante is perfectly entitled to like it, or to see potential in some of its features--even if you and I stand profoundly perplexed by those same design choices. And honestly, SCV may have been a misstep over-all, but I'm not sure that it deserves the blame for tanking the series--it had been on a decline for a while, and I think the ultimate blame goes back to SCIII, the launch of which imploded the competetive scene for the series in such a manner that it's taken more than a decade to (kinda-sorta) recover. SCV didn't help matters, needless to say, but I think putting all the blame at its door is not entirely fair. Anyway, it bears repeating that even with SCV's faults, even if PS revisits it's plot line, it won't be the same development team, and we can expect the same mistakes will not be made. Instead, in the grand tradition of Soul Calibur, they will be all new and fabulous mistakes in the form of things we would never have expected they were stupid enough to do until we see them. ;)
Perhaps, perhapts not. The point is, they are clearly willing to explore re-integrating elements of the SCV thematic and story beats.
Honestly, though Dante, it can't be said enough that your hope that the next games will preserve every character and just add more is not realistic. One can hope that the serialized model proves successful enough for Namco that each sequential game can eventually recomposite a sizeable portion of the roster, but as far as the base game goes, 24-ish is your maximum expectation and even if we exclude SCIII's 14 bonus movesets and the ten guest characters, that's still roughly 50 returning characters; this just isn't Smash Bros. homie--the all-roster isn't happening, much as some of us pine for it.
Yeah, but I think most people did mostly vote based more on gameplay than on the character having an established story, because it's the former rather than the latter that drives the interests of most fans of the franchise--you're an outlier in that regard. I think a better argument for why the SCV new kids were not particularly proper (aside from the obvious factor that SCV itself received a very mixed reception) is that they were simply newer. Of course a character who has been around for 2-5 games (and 7-20 years) longer is going to have more advocates--if the results were any different it would be shocking. As you rightly point out, though, character popularity isn't a zero-sum analysis and the fact that relatively few people picked these characters as their absolute favourite doesn't mean they are loathed or even that they aren't missed by a significant number of players. They just couldn't rise to the top in a "pick your #1 character" contest. If I were asked to make that call and given ten votes, I'd have voted for Amy five times in a row.
Last edited: