Nyte
Fu-ma's Shadow
I'll try to change the subject because god knows this has gone on too long:
I heard Hilde might come on the 28th. Is that true?
I heard Hilde might come on the 28th. Is that true?
Soul Calibur VI: General discussion
- Thread starter SSfox
- Start date
Crash X
[14] Master
Except your confrontational and aggressive posting habits towards others differing opinions towards this topic are not making you look any better by comparison. Honestly, they’re just making you look worse. Even if another’s opinion isn’t the most popular one here or there, at least show some respect and self control towards them.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
I mean, it's possible. There's no real way to know for sure. All we can say for now is Hildegard soon Krone.
masterROBOMAN
[11] Champion
Yeah. When I jumped into scv after struggling to play in sciv, it feels really great. Speed of movement is really satisfying compared to the previous title. In the end, I found myself liking scv even more, what I can't say about sciv.
One day I started to think SCIV was even worst then V becoua how uninspired IV is. While I play SCIV when it comes, playing process feels like stagnation rather than exploring.
But, i'l be honest, I really want to find SCIV bright sides. And, I ask again: Why do you like SoulCalibur IV? How to love SCIV?
DanteSC3
[14] Master
SoulCalibur IV was fine for its time because we didn't have a next gen SoulCalibur game at the time. But it had terrible online, the slowest gameplay in the entire franchise, the abysmal Star Wars characters, the weakest Story mode, and the tedious trudgery that was the Tower of Lost Souls. It was shiny and new but it really didn't last long due to all its faults. Then SoulCalibur V came along and livened up the gameplay while dashing down nearly everything else that wasn't the character creator and online modes. It's really hard to love SoulCalibur IV's gameplay when SoulCalibur V exists. Do what the rest of us did, recreate SoulCalibur IV characters in SoulCalibur V and play the more technically competent game. Hilde is more balanced in SoulCalibur V anyway.
werewolfgold
[12] Conqueror
NO. YOU LIVE IN HELLWORLD JUST LIKE THE REST OF US.
Well, that's certainly where all the SC fans are. My mistake. lol
Oh, hey, look what I found there. That's much better.
yOu CaN't EvEn TeLl ShE's A wOmAn AnYmOrE!!11
How dare you? Darth Vader 4 life. lol
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Rusted Blade
[14] Master
I'd like to suggest to those of my fellow community members who are engaging with Nyte on the topic du jour that it is a mistake to cede to him the concession that he is on the side of "sexy" and you are not, no matter his rhetorical insistence on such; that is not, as I see it, what this discussion is about. Sexy can mean a lot of things. You want to know what I think (for example) Hitomi's sexiest outfit is? I mean, I'm not in the habit of thinking of her designs primarily in those terms, but if I have to choose, I know exactly what it is:
Easily more appealing than all of her lingerie outfits and bikinis put together. You can see she's strong, she's fit and athletic, and she looks like she actually came to fight, rather than take a walk down the runway, or a spin of the stripper poll. That's sexy to me: it's sexy as f---. Of course, I'm not usually looking at my character (or any character) when I play these games, in terms of their sex appeal, as if they are some kind of digital sex placebo*. But when I do pause to consider the aesthetic appeal of a character, including any assessment of attractiveness or "sexiness", it's rarely the overtly salacious designs that stand out. It's the ones a little more rooted in reality and the suggestion of some substance--rather than schoolboy notions of pin-up model sexiness--that stand out for me, and I don't think I'm alone in that.
You see, I don't think Nyte is prevailing here--neither by consensus nor by the strength of his arguments. But he is able to artificially extend the discourse by moving the goal posts and defining "sexy" as being the much narrower set of qualities that he associates with the term. Now, I for one am not inclined to grant Nyte the patent on defining what is attractive and I suggest no one else get sucked into that rhetorical sink hole.
Perhaps sexy vs. practical is also a reasonable discussion to have on another, abstract level. But I don't think its the discussion most of us are trying to have: most of us are happy to entertain, to some degree or another, that it doesn't hurt to have some characters who are easy on the eyes. But the question of the inclusion of sexual elements shouldn't hinge on the presumption that "sexy" automatically means characters who look like they are stepping straight out of Jersey Shore...
*Overwhelmingly I am concerned with mechanics and the flow of the simulated combat and even when some part of me is pausing the enjoy the game on a visual aesthetic level, I don't think the size of the digital fighter's cans-cans (Get, it Hilde's boobplate? Cans cans! Oh god I'm a riot.) plays much of a role for me. But I do spend a fair bit of time on character creation, and there are certainly plenty of creations where I have an eye towards making the character of flattering design.
Easily more appealing than all of her lingerie outfits and bikinis put together. You can see she's strong, she's fit and athletic, and she looks like she actually came to fight, rather than take a walk down the runway, or a spin of the stripper poll. That's sexy to me: it's sexy as f---. Of course, I'm not usually looking at my character (or any character) when I play these games, in terms of their sex appeal, as if they are some kind of digital sex placebo*. But when I do pause to consider the aesthetic appeal of a character, including any assessment of attractiveness or "sexiness", it's rarely the overtly salacious designs that stand out. It's the ones a little more rooted in reality and the suggestion of some substance--rather than schoolboy notions of pin-up model sexiness--that stand out for me, and I don't think I'm alone in that.
You see, I don't think Nyte is prevailing here--neither by consensus nor by the strength of his arguments. But he is able to artificially extend the discourse by moving the goal posts and defining "sexy" as being the much narrower set of qualities that he associates with the term. Now, I for one am not inclined to grant Nyte the patent on defining what is attractive and I suggest no one else get sucked into that rhetorical sink hole.
Perhaps sexy vs. practical is also a reasonable discussion to have on another, abstract level. But I don't think its the discussion most of us are trying to have: most of us are happy to entertain, to some degree or another, that it doesn't hurt to have some characters who are easy on the eyes. But the question of the inclusion of sexual elements shouldn't hinge on the presumption that "sexy" automatically means characters who look like they are stepping straight out of Jersey Shore...
*Overwhelmingly I am concerned with mechanics and the flow of the simulated combat and even when some part of me is pausing the enjoy the game on a visual aesthetic level, I don't think the size of the digital fighter's cans-cans (Get, it Hilde's boobplate? Cans cans! Oh god I'm a riot.) plays much of a role for me. But I do spend a fair bit of time on character creation, and there are certainly plenty of creations where I have an eye towards making the character of flattering design.
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Rusted Blade
[14] Master
[I'm taking the uncommon action off double posting, so as to keep these two different streams of discussion a little more isolated.]
Now, there are several possible rhetorical objections to that line of reasoning: we do make fun of Voldo quite a lot; are he and other goofball characters the kind of standard we want in our expectations for a characters like Hilde?; the design could be such an effort and yet still be received as campy or even juvenile by the audience; and yet more. But the one I settled on as most relevant was an objection to the predicate assumption that 1) the work actually was the primary product of a woman, 2) such that it represents her creative output and not something that came with instructions in the vein of "more feminine than her previous design" or just outright "Boobplate."
Now I will grant you, that is a high bar to meet, but it wasn't my bar: that is the underlying assumption of the argument advanced by the other party, because otherwise, it is simply not a "woman being allowed to express her sexuality" in any realistic sense, I'm sure we can agree. I merely pointed out that, as statistical matter considering the industry, it is extremely unlikely that any of those things was true--let alone all, and you really do need all of them.
Now in that context, you're telling me that it is really more incumbent upon me to prove a negative on all of that, than it is for the party making the original affirmative assertion to prove their own foundational predicate? If so, I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree and don't think we are going to come to an agreement on that part. In fact, I'd suggest that if that's the weight you've decided to weight the burden of proof here, I would counter the implication of your own comments with the suggestion that you have some confirmation bias here: you subject arguments which confirm your assumptions to a much different standard than those which run counter.
Also, perhaps you'd like to clarify which of my views are "extreme"? That seems a bit much, if I'm frank.
And for the record, I for one am happy to end on a note of agreement, slight as it might be in the grander scheme.
I think you're confusing my meaning and/or the course of events here. An assertion was made that the tit plate might be considered, rather than example of silly pandering design, an expression of female sexuality, with the added implication in the framing that some of the opposition to the design represented implicit bias (rather than reasonable cause to find the design goofy) towards suppressing female sexuality at a level we don't for male (I suppose the example in mind there was something like Voldo's codpiece).
Now, there are several possible rhetorical objections to that line of reasoning: we do make fun of Voldo quite a lot; are he and other goofball characters the kind of standard we want in our expectations for a characters like Hilde?; the design could be such an effort and yet still be received as campy or even juvenile by the audience; and yet more. But the one I settled on as most relevant was an objection to the predicate assumption that 1) the work actually was the primary product of a woman, 2) such that it represents her creative output and not something that came with instructions in the vein of "more feminine than her previous design" or just outright "Boobplate."
Now I will grant you, that is a high bar to meet, but it wasn't my bar: that is the underlying assumption of the argument advanced by the other party, because otherwise, it is simply not a "woman being allowed to express her sexuality" in any realistic sense, I'm sure we can agree. I merely pointed out that, as statistical matter considering the industry, it is extremely unlikely that any of those things was true--let alone all, and you really do need all of them.
Now in that context, you're telling me that it is really more incumbent upon me to prove a negative on all of that, than it is for the party making the original affirmative assertion to prove their own foundational predicate? If so, I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree and don't think we are going to come to an agreement on that part. In fact, I'd suggest that if that's the weight you've decided to weight the burden of proof here, I would counter the implication of your own comments with the suggestion that you have some confirmation bias here: you subject arguments which confirm your assumptions to a much different standard than those which run counter.
Also, perhaps you'd like to clarify which of my views are "extreme"? That seems a bit much, if I'm frank.
I think we both know that is neither what I said nor what I meant. The wording of my statement very clearly indicated that a female designer wasn't impossible, but that it was statistically improbable. Beyond that, I also assume anyone so into a game as to be here on this board knows enough about the industry that they understand why that is improbable. I don't usually take the time on these particular forums to extensively cite industry statistics for general trends I presume my fellow forum-goers are well aware of, as a matter of common knowledge that extends even beyond hardcore gamers like us.
That's a fair enough position. There are caveats, plenty of them, based on what we do know about this game, but I don't want to needlessly drag out every little point, when they aren't critical to the fundamental arguments, and when your last point is perfectly reasonable in general. But again, I'd reiterate that the context of how this topic came up is of relevance: if we are going to consider if a specific should be treated as an expression female sexual expression/autonomy, we should first have some indication that the design substantially arose with a woman, not just be able to point to some vague (and still statistically improbable) implication that it did.
And for the record, I for one am happy to end on a note of agreement, slight as it might be in the grander scheme.
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Nyte
Fu-ma's Shadow
I'd like to point out that this began when I was explaining Okubo's design philosophy -- the game must be as appealing as possible. This shows in multiple ways, such as the spectacle in the battles, visual effects, over-the-top CEs, cool designs for the men, and sexy designs for the women. It was meant to entice people into playing the game. That's because it's a niche game in a niche genre, and needs to do everything it can to get people to play.
People tend to focus on the latter point.
People tend to focus on the latter point.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
I don't think there is anyone here (at least not that I have seen) that would disagree that this clearly the aim of Okubo's team, or indeed of just about any developer; you treat the notion that the game should "look good all around" as if it is a point you alone are on to, as opposed to the completely obvious principle that it is. Nobody doubts this is a priority for Project Soul and I doubt anyone finds it irrational or unreasonable. The part you seem to be missing is that "looking good" is highly subjective. And even if everyone agreed that "sexy women" is a critical facet of that test, a "sexy woman" is itself, again, a highly subjective concept.
So when you attack any objection to a design on the grounds that you like it as a matter of fan service, and then reduce the argument to "You are trying to drain sexy out of the game, but I, the self-appointed defender of the series, will stand up to it, as it can only be described as the PC sanitizing of the game!" it comes off as obnoxious posturing, with you vainly prioritizing your concept of "sexy" as the only one which counts. No dude, there's a million other reasons why someone might find your concept of sexy to be divergent from their own, other than your standard assumption (and assertion) that the other party is a puritan who wants to reduce the game design landscape to a genderless, sexless, pasteurized affair. Nothing could be further from the truth for most of us. Sorry, others have conceptions of sexiness that were informed by more than Cheerleader Bikini Carwash 2, and are not trying to "censor" anything when commenting upon some of the design choices being misfires for them, even if we assume that sexy was the intended effect.
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masterROBOMAN
[11] Champion
Um... Why should i need to recreate SC4 design aesthetics when i really dislike SC4 design?
DanteSC3
[14] Master
I meant moreso "recreate the characters that didn't make it into SoulCalibur V (most of which whom were in SoulCalibur IV) in your preferred design" than literal SoulCalibur IV recreations, unless you happen to like a SoulCalibur IV design best for someone.
masterROBOMAN
[11] Champion
well, it's still doesn't ends my quest to find hidden gems in SC4 disc. right now, SCIV is still the WORST SC game for me.
But, someone is actually loves this game, and i want to know why. I feel i missing something...
FluffyQuack
[14] Master
I think it's super likely. I go into detail on why here (jump to 8:14 if the video doesn't start there):
Basically:
- Anna for Tekken got announced about a month before her release.
- Anna (which was the first release for season 2) got released the same day Tekken got a permanent discount.
- SoulCalibur VI will get a permanent discount on the 28th of November (this is only announced for Japan so far, but I assume it will be worldwide).
Namco must be planning some kind of big announcement where they announce the discount, release date of Hilde, and that it's possible to buy the new season pass.
I really liked SC4, and I'd probably still rank it as one of my favourite SC games.
- The game has some serious balancing issues, but I don't think that was apparent from a casual standpoint. None of my friends tried to cheese Hilde's doom combo or anything like that.
- The game looked (and still looks) pretty darn impressive graphically. I also like most of the stages and costumes. Some costumes definitely aren't to my taste, but I think most of them looked good in 4. When people talk about SC4 costumes, I feel like they keep referring to Ivy's dental floss outfit, but there are far more costumes in the game than that one.
- I like how they evolved most of the movesets from previous SC titles. The biggest exception being Ivy. I dropped her in SC3, and SC4 did nothing to convince me to use her again.
- The singleplayer-content wasn't bad. It didn't get close to SC3 by any stretch, but I enjoyed the story mode and tower of lost souls. The one thing I did hate about the singleplayer content was how CAS items had stats.
- I didn't mind the slower-paced gameplay (aka slow movement), although it is weird to go back to now.
- Music was great.
- And though the execution was wonky, I liked the premise of Critical Finishes. I found it neat it was an alternate way to finish fights which wasn't about reducing the health gauge to 0.
- Roster-wise it's pretty hard to complain. It has almost every legacy character.
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wondersophitia
[07] Duelist
Does Sophitia's wet tissue costume count? Or how destroyed parts aren't just vanished? Something that V and VI failed to do.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
There's another factor that argues for it: this is the day that launches the holiday gift buying season in earnest. Now most people do not buy DLC as gifts, as it is difficult to gift it on most platforms, so if you want to hit the holiday season at all, you want to catch people before they have exhausted their money reserves on presents. And then anybody who does get the base game as a gift can also be tempted by the easy availability of the DLC content once they receive the game.
Soul
Valide Kösem Sultan
Well first, it had the best roster. So many characters, 2 new ones ( one of which became a fan favorite
), uniquely designed bonus characters, Odd but regardlessly fun guest characters, and thankfully no mimics.The movelists of the characters were very rich, which enhanced the gameplay and made it a lot of fun. Clones became more original (Cassandra, Amy, Mi-na, Nightmare, Rock) and Setsuka in this game remains the most fun character i ever played. There was just something about her that made me play her for hours straight without feeling the slighest sense of boredom. Idk if it was her just frames, difficulty, or simply the design of the character, but i sure hope to see her again this season pass.
The graphics were amazing. SCIV was way ahead of it's time in terms of graphics. The stages were also great. A good amount and well designed & detailed. It was really hard for me to get bored of looking at this game. The soundtrack was also pretty sweet.
Character creation was a lot of fun. Like the graphics, it was a major improvement to SCIII's character creation. Recolouring P1s & P2s was so much fun and refreshing.
I know the netcode was crap, but it was the first SC to have an online mode. Eventually i would get used to the lag on 3, 4 and 5 bar connections and still have fun playing online and, for the first time, meeting SC players from all around the world.
Like any other SC game, SCIV had it's faults but it was still fun. It was a game and a period of time that i will cherish forever because it really was one of the most fun gaming experiences i had.
The real major issues with the game, imo, is the speed and the online. If those two things can be fixed, it would be the best game in the series for me. I wouldn't mind seeing a remastered version of it on the PS5. I'd definitely pay for that.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Alright, I've been dodging this discussion for a bit, but since I routinely assert SCIV is the most unfairly judged game of the series and actually one of the true gems, I guess I should make my arguments:
First and foremost, the game looks amazing. I still think it is still the highwater mark for visual design in the franchise, and the best balance any Soulcalibur game has struck between realism and the vibrant style of the past games. The colour palette is gorgeous in most applications. The stages are inventive, alive with activity and immersive, and I don't really understand where the somewhat vague gripes about the supposedly inferior character designs come from: they seem pretty par for the course for me: certainly nothing as goofy as hammerhead Astaroth, or the half of the bonus character designs from SCIII:CE. There are some close competitors in the visual design: SCII and SCIII primarily, but I think SCIV edges them both out for me. The sound design is also top notch and the music has a huge number of earworms.
I personally love the gameplay. I go back to play every main entry game in the series a bit now and then, probably a fair deal more than even most hardcore players do, so I've had a little bit of time to consider and test the claim that this is the slowest game in the series since SCII. I think it's true only in some specifics, in movement but less so in frames for attack. Specifically, characters step about as quickly, but they cover less distance, unless you are at a run, where the distance covered is of a smaller discontinuity with previous games. Lateral movement is actually super fast, albeit slightly slower than the games immediately before and after it. Many basic moves do have a few more frames than they had in SCIII, but not all, and I believe this was a cognizant design choice to make the windows for impacts a little more generous, and it shows in the gameplay, which much more frequently fell into tense back and forth impact contests at high level play.
Balance was not perfect, but considering the relative lack of post-release patching and thus a testing phase with community feedback, I think it's actually remarkable what they were able to accomplish with thorough in-house testing before release. Yes, Hilde's doom combo should have been caught and yes, she would have been OP without it, but that is not exactly atypical of new characters in games in this series. I concur with FQ that the SCIV critical finish mechanic was a great wrinkle that I would have rather seen refined than dropped in later entries, and by far the most significant way guard breaks have been utilized in any SC game. Yes, the online experience was poor, but this was the first online game in the series, and poor netcode is not the only explanation for why, when we look back on the game, it feels like it had poor latency: the much slower connection speeds for the average player and less developed client services of the nascent online platforms probably played a larger role. And considering how absolutely completely this aspect of SCVI has been botched in a contemporary context, clearly we are grading on a curve.
Beyond all of that, the roster is the best in the series to date (to be soon surpassed after this season pass though, and with SCIII:AE being a close follower as well) and pretty much every moveset was massively expanded upon over the previous entry. CaS was a massive step forward, and we got a tone of content free off the bat, though it was a major annoyance how it was all locked away under conditions, particularly the super tedious tower challenges. I'll even put myself out there as a defender of the Star Wars characters: Yoda was clearly a mistake, but I'd say even he's acceptable just as an experiment. I don't much care about the single player content, but it is worth saying--since the game being skimpy in this regard is a frequent criticism--that it had more of it than any previous Soulcalibur game except SCIII:CE, and that game was broken as a consequence of trying to do too much at once, which is why virtually everyone who played both aditions of the game agrees that the Arcade Edition is the superior one--and it has far less single player content than SCIV.
The game also took more chances and experimented with the formula than most games in the series, from the afore-mentioned critical finishers, to tag battle, to interactive stage elements, to significant reworks of styles that mostly worked, to light RPG elements (though again, I agree with FQ that the stats were ultimately a misfire--mostly because they required you to choose between your preferred design and a good balance of stats for a reasonable build, but also because most people prefer to play things in a purist mode anyway.
Honestly, I could go on for a bit longer. This game really does not deserve its place in the consensus ranking (which I think typically puts it in the bottom third) in my opinion. It's easily a contender for best game in the series, to my inclinations, and if it's beat out, it's only by SCIII:AE, SCII, and maybe this game if the season passes and continued patches ultimately deliver on its promise.
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DanteSC3
[14] Master
Agree to disagree on this point I suppose. I'd much rather have Hwang and Li Long (and Olcadan) than Hilde and Algol.Well first, it had the best roster. So many characters, 2 new ones ( one of which became a fan favorite
You could recolor 1p and 2p outfits in SoulCalibur III already, though. SoulCalibur IV added the ability to actually customize characters beyond just colors.
Mostly agree, but SoulCalibur V did fix those things. Kinda jacked the roster, sure, but I'd really like to see SoulCalibur III: Arcade Edition with SoulCalibur V's online, if we're speaking in wishes and hypotheticals.
