Strategy/Playstyle Discussion + general Q&A

I rarely use NSS K and GS A now

GS A... still use it sometimes....rarely

NSS K...already removed it from my top ten move list

when my NSS K or GS A gets blocked...

i usually pray

it works sometimes

-LAU
Click to expand...

LOL LOL XD
 
NSS K and GS A are essential moves for nightmare but against experienced opponents you want to use them sparingly

they prevent the opponent from punishing moves in certain ways safely
 
you still NEED to use NSS K/GS A like tiamat said.. it's essential.. the moment you stop using them.. you kinda lose a lot of pressure just because it's unsafe doesn't mean you don't use it... but you gotta be smart about it.

-LAU
 
Be extremely careful about completing NSS A->NSS K Natural combo when NSS A is blocked. It works as a bit of a frametrap...but it's high...and can be ducked easily if you are throwing it out after every NSS A.

At the same time, it catches alotta people for a CH. I'm torn sometimes on whether to do it or not after a block.

Also, I've found it very effective to do a GS A to chase down a retreating Talim (The back-jump). When executed right, I haven't had it fail. Maybe if the cancled the jump forward afterward they'd avoid it/block it?
 
LAU said:
you still NEED to use NSS K/GS A like tiamat said.. it's essential.. the moment you stop using them.. you kinda lose a lot of pressure just because it's unsafe doesn't mean you don't use it... but you gotta be smart about it.

-LAU
Click to expand...

There's the fucking kicker. Don't not use shit just because it's unsafe if blocked. If you want safe, use Sophie or Voldo, not Nighty.
 
err...I rarely use it doesn't mean I don't use it :)
LOL
on certain situation I still use it

BTW...

I just had some match with my friend
I tried this:

Wall :
FC B+G > Turn around > WS B > NSS A+B > .....trap or 2A+B

my opponent is setsuka tho...
sometimes It worked sometimes it didn't

but I could be wrong
I haven't tested it yet because My PS3 isn't in my place :(

correct me if I wrong :)
 
Nightmare's sideroll thread

I'm having trouble in dealing with opponents who side roll and so far I've found just that 1k stays consistent in hitting the opponent if he rolls both ways. I was just wondering if I've missed anything in what to do or what moves are good to use if the opponent siderolls a lot.
 
ok is this a tech trap?

CH 22_88 A B if they tech 2 A+B will miss but if you use 33B instead it'll catch them if they tech left and backwards
 
22AB > 2A+B can be avoid by right recover. You can use 3B for guaranteed hit instead of 2A+B. Try 1A sometimes too, that will works but can be blocked and don't follow up (on right recover).
 
IkI: 88AB is better than 22AB. 2A+B can be guaranteed depending on the enemy character and the distance
 
Oh, good to know. It's weird that one side is better than the other side :|. I'm gonna use this side but it'll be hard to adopt, I always step with 22 :o
 
Hey there, new to 8WR, first-time poster, new to NM, and I have a question for anyone with some experience.

I have trouble with mitsurugis that are good at high-low mixups (my brother is a good example). It seems every time I get knocked down, I lose 30%-40% of my life, but every time I knock him down, I maybe get a 1K in :(

Usually when I get a knockdown, I run up right next to him, and do a few things:
∙if I'm close enough, usually I'll 1[A]6 -> GS mixups (i.e. KK or A if I think he will try to counter, WS B if I think he will duck, throw/FC throw if I think he will stand & block)
∙depending on what move I knocked him down with, Techtrap him with the appropriate followup move
∙throw if I think he will get up and block
∙3B OR 6B:B if I think he will get up and block low

The problem is, this whole strategy seems to be nullified if he gets up, ducks for just a sec to dodge a throw, then reacts accordingly ( I can't tell you how many times my throws have been ducked and then I get countered with a WS attack)

Anyone have any advice for me? I guess this isn't just for mitsus, but they're the ones I've been having the most trouble with.

When I knock someone down, is it bad to immediately run up to them and then use options from there? Or should I use mid-range options (3B, 6B:B, 11B) and try to keep my distance?
 
Welcome to the forum! to address your questions...

why are you getting hurt so badly after knockdowns? you should stay down and sideroll a lot, nearly irregardless of the matchup. it's better to take a ground hit than to stand up into a mixup. in addition, moves that hurt you a lot for staying on the ground can generally be seen on reflex and blocked. for example you can be lying on the ground and keep an eye on what he's doing, if he see him winding up for a strong ground hitting mid you can try to block it, otherwise stay down/sideroll

if you get hit by 2kB while on the ground, if you try to get up the second hit will get you. however, you get a free WR B after he HITS you with the B, so this really shouldn't scare you in the least.

from GS you want to mixup WS B with throw, it's the most solid mixup. doing a throw is usually more unsafe than doing a WS B so keep that in mind

for okizeme aftger knockdowns it depends on what knockdown you got. in general 1[A] and GS B variations are solid things to try, as well as 11B. depending on how the opponent tries to beat 1[a] determines which countermeasure you should use. if they try to hit you out of it with a non jump move, release the 1A early, if they try to jump or GI start doing 1aK. GS B you want to mixup doing either GS B6 or GS so that they cannot punish the same ways.

hope that helps, post if you need more information or have other questions
 
Tiamat said:
Welcome to the forum! to address your questions...

why are you getting hurt so badly after knockdowns? you should stay down and sideroll a lot, nearly irregardless of the matchup. it's better to take a ground hit than to stand up into a mixup. in addition, moves that hurt you a lot for staying on the ground can generally be seen on reflex and blocked. for example you can be lying on the ground and keep an eye on what he's doing, if he see him winding up for a strong ground hitting mid you can try to block it, otherwise stay down/sideroll
Click to expand...

Ok I will try more down/sideroll and less tech/back&front roll

Tiamat said:
if you get hit by 2kB while on the ground, if you try to get up the second hit will get you. however, you get a free WR B after he HITS you with the B, so this really shouldn't scare you in the least.
Click to expand...

What exactly do you mean by a free WR B? Does this mean that after I get hit with 2kB (both hits), no matter the situation, I can always do a WR B for guaranteed damage every single time? If so, I did not know that.

Tiamat said:
from GS you want to mixup WS B with throw, it's the most solid mixup. doing a throw is usually more unsafe than doing a WS B so keep that in mind
Click to expand...

Yes, I am bad at using anything except KK out of GS. It works so well online that I think I have developed a bad habit of using it every time.

Tiamat said:
for okizeme aftger knockdowns it depends on what knockdown you got. in general 1[A] and GS B variations are solid things to try, as well as 11B. depending on how the opponent tries to beat 1[a] determines which countermeasure you should use. if they try to hit you out of it with a non jump move, release the 1A early, if they try to jump or GI start doing 1aK. GS B you want to mixup doing either GS B6 or GS so that they cannot punish the same ways.

hope that helps, post if you need more information or have other questions
Click to expand...


When you say GS B, you mean simply doing GS from standing position (234) instead of doing it after a move? If so, I haven't thought of simply using grim stride for mixup opportunities. I almost always use GS only after a move, either 1[A]6, 33B6, or 66K6. I guess I should start using standalone stance moves more often for confusion?

I think my main issue is, I don't feel like I have a fast, safe, powerful punisher for peple who are overly reliant on duck-blocking. It seems like whenever I sense the opponent will duck-block, my punishers are too slow, and he has time to stand up and block before my attack finishes. Like I said, usually I use 3B and 6B:B if I think the opponent is about to duck-block.

Also, Tiamat, I have a question about your guide, specifically the frametrap section. You have moves listed for different frametrap situations (on hit, on CH, on block). I am unsure what it means for those moves to be listed under that category. It's my understanding that if a move is a frametrap, then you can use a move after it, and it will be a guaranteed hit on the opponent if they try to do anything except block. But this only works for certain moves after the frametrap move, not all moves. I played a fair bit of SC3, and my favorite frametrap was cervantes' 1K->WS K. However, this only worked with WS K. If you tried to do any move other than WS K after hitting a 1K, then your opponent could use a fast move to counter you.

So, put simply, can you explain the frametrap section of your guide?
 
first off when I say WS B or WR B I mean the same thing just to be clear, I'm trying to start using WR as the abbreviation

What I mean is, if you get hit by 2kB you will be hit into the air. However, if you block the first hit and get hit by the second hit, it will not hit you into the air. Also, if you are on the ground and get hit by the 2k part and try to stand up, the B will hit you, but in this case as well you will not be knocked down. It will put you into a crouching state and he has so much recovery that you can hit him for free with WR B even though he just hit you. Record mitsu 2kB > hold G in training mode and play the recording to test this stuff.

The way to do GS mixups is to do a GS, but wait till the GS ends, then go into a WR/FC mixup. WS B and throws are the usually the best moves to use for mixup here

example of using GS move by itself would be A+G throw > 236B. if they try to attack or crouch they will be hit. also if they try to sideroll they will be hit, though this will hit them far away and your pressure will end. make sure to mixup whether you are using GS B6 or GS . once they are blocking it a lot you should start doing 1[A] mixups

It is annoying trying to get people to stop ducking with nightmare but your best bets are 3B and 33B from standing. for a safe move you can try 11K. from crouch WS B is excellent for hitting crouching opponents because it is very fast and gives good combos. this is why GS (end) WS B/throw mixup is good



I'm glad you actually looked at my guide, sometimes I think it just gets ignored. About the frame trap section, I use the term loosely. All it is saying is that you have the advantage after those moves in those given situations.

examples:
block example- a:G+A slow input is +7 or more on guard, so many attacks will beat the opponent if they attack
normal hit example- WS K gives a lot of advantage on hit, +5 maybe. if you are pretty sure the opponent will attack you can 4KK for good damage. if unsure, just go for 1K
CH example- 1K is +2 on CH, this means that if you do another 1K or a WS K after it hits, you will beat nearly all attacks. only very fast highs can beat those moves, and if they start doing highs you can just do things like CH 1K > 66K6 or CH 1K > FC grab

based on the enemy's attack options changes your frametrap usefulness. for example, siegfried cannot hit nightmare for doing CH 1K > WS K, but sophitia can if she does her fast AA.

stance frametraps are also complicated, but hopefully this gives you some idea what I'm talking about. if you need more explanation on frametraps ask away
 
Well I guess I would just like a list of commonly used frametraps. After reading the guide and playing around a bit, I found that the one you mentioned, 1K->WS K is a fairly reliable one, although sometimes I think I get a CH when I really don't, and then I get countered as I try to do my WR K.

I guess a good starting list would be all frametrap combos that are 100% guaranteed for every character (so CH 1K-> WR K doesn't count since some characters such as sophitia can counter with immediate AA). I suppose combos that are 100% guaranteed for all characters except 1 or 2 would still be useful. That way, I at least have a good base to work with, and then I can begin branching out to mixup attacks once my opponent begins to guard after I do a frametrap move.

So, what are some good common moves to use after frametraps? Or should I just use my imagination?

Also, what does FC mean? I don't see this term in the Newbie Silencer anywhere. Is this Forward Crouch (example would be NM's 3B while crouched which is an attack throw)? Last, I'm not sure what 3[B| means, my only guess is 3 where NM goes into his NSS after the move.
 
combos means guaranteed damage, frametraps never guarnatee anything. be sure to not mix up your terms

FC means from crouch. it actually means full crouch but that sounds stupid.

I do the brackets like [B| as a habit I picked up on the other forum because if you kept putting in s you would get all sorts of random crap bolded because of the HTML thing. ignore it, =[B|= etc all the same thing


so you want frametraps that are 100% uninterruptible? what criteria are you looking for? every frametrap can be beaten with a GI, many can be beaten with step, if the frametrap is with a high move fast TCs can beat it, if frametrap is into a low they can jump it, the list goes on.

list of stuff that can only be dealt with using GIs or evades of some kind:
WS K normal hit > 3K/1K
CH 66K6 > GS B
a:G+A (slow input) blocked > 11K
9K normal hit > 1K/3K
GS A normal hit > 11K

stuff that can be beaten only by super fast TCs:
[A] (blocked) > NSS K
NSS [A] (blocked at specific range) > NSS K


That's about it if you want the super solid frametraps. however, other traps like CH 1K > 1K and 1[A]6 (blocked) > GS B are generally more useful despite being technically interruptible by high moves.
 
I think I finally figured out the mystery of 66K6 vs 33K6

33K6 does 2 more damage so, why do 66K6? the answer seems to be that 33K6 has inferior TC frames!

test:
record WS K or 11K at point blank range (-5) into 66K or 33K

1P character should be amy. block his kick then 6BB. if the recording did 66K you'll lose, if the recording did 33K you'll hit him out

in short, 66K has faster TC than 33K, and I think that the faster TC frames are worth giving up 2 damage. I think when at disadvantage, do 66K, if neutral try 33K


Also...somewhat major revision of Nightmare guide is now completed. Frametrap section, Okizeme section got updated, post GI got updated with bA6 as an option, "body attack" added under interrupt section near the top, among various other things. only the stuff in the first post was updated, the second post about character matchup stuff is still a jumbled mess of crazyness
 
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