Super High-Level In Your Face TIERLIST!!!

I know I'm late 2 da partay but, seriously, I can't find any tierlist (das not a wurd lol) thread that I can post in and I never got to share my opinion. If possible, I want this to be a discussion because I want to talk about everyone's perspective and actually like to hear this stuff (so, if we can, no close, please). I mean, I know people get angry for whatever reason but that's just another spice of life, right?

I'd like it if, rather than posting you guyseses own that you criticize mine. Now, I understand that might not always be the case but I'd at least like for the topic to start off that way so that I can give a chance to give some reasoning. But, please, be direct in your criticism and questioning; it's much harder to answer the question, "Why is *X* here?" as opposed to answering, "Why is *X* here and not here?" or "Why is *X" here instead of *Y*?"

Well, without further delay, my own personal tierlist! =o

A:

Cervantes
Alpha Patroklos
Mitsurugi
Algol
Tira
Viola

A-: Pyrrha

B+: Patroklos
Natsu
Yoshimitsu

B: Nightmare
Siegfried
Pyrrha Omega
Hilde
Voldo
Ezio
Xiba
Astaroth
Ivy
Aeon
Maxi
Z.W.E.I.

C: Raphael
Leixia

D: Dampierre

I also want to make a spreadsheet to see how much what I think matches up with what I think (know what I mean)? So, if someone can help me understand...how to actually make a spreadsheet, it'd be much appreciated!

 

I've never felt that Ast was all that intimidating (Okay...well, I did in 4...and he's unarguably better now...but

yeah). I feel that he really needs to play a smart spacing/and poking game that's way too risky. The range of his

throws is really good, but guessing right on a throw often does as much (or more) than his throw would have done).

Not only that but he's very limited at close range, which is where he's supposed to be the scariest. His damage and

some of his good range attacks are the only thing make me put him so high.

But isn't the same even more true for NM and Sieg which you seemed to have placed higher?

 

Between ZWEI and Raphael, I can honestly say Raphael is much better. Raphael gets constant opportunities to land small amounts of damage and has strong reverse mixups off of it. ZWEI really doesn't get damage outside of whiff punishing, guard bursts, and B+K BE setups. Any character with decent punishment can turtle up to avoid whiffing and his guard burst game is a gamble depending on how the opponent deals with 66A+B. B+K BE setups are counterable in the same way Viola 6B+K setups are; he leaves himself open to set it up.

I have experience against various ZWEI players and have studied the character for myself to see if the "worst character in the game" stigma was true, and nothing has really convinced me that it isn't.

 

Well if i still had the game (see status) then slade I would easily convince u zwei isn't the worst, I believe there is no worst char in sc5 anyway....some chars just have to work harder and rather played differently.

 

I don't agree with either of them. And it makes me laugh that the ones putting him there don't play Raphael at all. And all the other noobs just blindly follow as usual. I wonder what Heaton would say on the subject, for example, or YoungFox.

Ok, this is a point I cannot really understand.

What do you think: How many people (having posted here or not) are able to play each character of the game to its maximum and approach every different matchup correctly?

When you create a tier list, it's more than just saying "This character is good" or "This character is bad". The level of how "strong" a character is, depends heavily on how "strong" the others are, because the tier list is some kind of ranking: So you put the characters in relation to each other - it's an order -, you can't look at the characters in a vacuum, because then everything can mean "good" or "bad". It wouldn't be very smart to have a look at only one character and say "Yeah, he/she must be B-tier", right?

So when you tell us now that our opinions here are laughable, because we don't even main Raphael: What would make your opinion less laughable then? Do you main everybody? Do you know every character perfectly so you can put Raphael in relation to everyone and define his exact tier position?
Oh, and not to mention that people like LP, Xeph or Ring probably haven't put Raphael into low tier, because they don't know anything about him and think that he "just sucks because everyone does".

I'm not gonna say that your knowledge is wrong or unimportant, but continuing your logic: Every tier list here would be laughable, yours very included.

And for your interest: My opinion is also influenced by daGOTTh who wrote the Raphael section of the official guide. That's not absolute, but it isn't laughable either.

 

I don't agree with either of them. And it makes me laugh that the ones putting him there don't play Raphael at all. And all the other noobs just blindly follow as usual. I wonder what Heaton would say on the subject, for example, or YoungFox.

As far back as Sunday Heaton told me personally and I quote, "Raph sucks". Laugh now.

 

LP, I agree with what you said about Cervantes, Astaroth and Pyrrha Ω.

...I think Xiba is pretty damned good so I dunno. As for Maxi, I could see him being worse than I imagine, but not enough to be lumped in with Leixia and Raph...

I used to think Xiba was monstrous, but I did a lot of anti-character training against him so that I had a better chance of beating Grunt Dude. I found that if you do learn how to deal with his gimmicks, he becomes extremely unsafe. He has very strong reverse mix-ups, but these are also very risky. So I think he's a high-reward but higher-risk character,
especially when he's against a character like Tira.

I explained the Viola thing higher up. As for ZWEI, he does S-rank damage and I honestly think he probably deserves to be higher, but, as said earlier, no one has shown that he deserves a higher rating so it'd be pompous of me to put him any higher.

Kerrigan got 3rd at EBO, and also DTN got really good with ZWEI before he stopped playing the game. I still think the character's flawed but there are protagonists out there doing good things.

Also, I think ShenYuan is probably more qualified than I can ever be to speak on the matter of Tira.

Does ShenYuan play with or against Tira? I didn't know.

Like Hikari said, you have to look at Tira as a whole, not GS and JS separately. Tira has a general weakness to spacing and stepping, but also she's difficult to use because of her varying movelist, self-damage, and random transitions even in combos. And if you don't want to take player skill into account, you still have to account for the fact that she has random transition moments mid-match and between rounds, which can hinder her at certain times.

I think she's potentially toptier, or close, because I think JG mastery could make her insanely strong.

 

Hey I'm not starting this with you Kalas. I was just answering a question you've asked me. Our opinions differ it's no big deal. LP provided me with a decent answer as to what he thinks about Raph. Which I appreciate.

 

my top few are Viola/Nightmare/Cerv/aPat. I would just say they are all about even.

(Yes, I'm singling you out >:D )

What do you think it is that makes Nightmare top tier? I haven't seen anyone claim such in months, not even the worst of the scrubbiest players even I can body without effort seem to be believing it at this point. Of course I'm asking because I disagree, I'm interested in what causes the difference in opinion.

 

A+
Cervantes Strengths: Excellent Movement, Damage, Range, Speed/Punishers/Whiff punishers/ Lows/Grabs/BE/CE/ pokes/ mixups/ has + frames, Strong wake up game, Decent Gauge Damage, Meter builder (8B+K), Escape tools
Weaknesses- Can be slightly unsafe. 1 frame slower 2a than general cast. Open to CE/hard punishes if you (initiater) guess wrong. Excellent tools can leave in you in small DA, thus you take some risk but can result in high reward

Viola
Brave Edge, Damage, forced Mixups and strong mixup, Gauge, Grabs, Pressure, Frames due to orb, pokes, CE, INFINITE, whiff punisher, Resets, FEAR, meter builder (passive from pressure), wake up

Weakness: Few bad matchups, low range, lack punishers

Patrokolos- POKES, DAMAGE, FRAMES (SLIGHTLY LOW EVERYWHERE), 66B (-2) LAUNCHER THAT GIVES MASSIVE METER <-- WTF?, PRESSURE, MORE POKES, CE, PUNISHER/WHIFF PUNISHER, GC, TCs,
Weakness- 2nd B SHORTER than first B of BB, a little linear, MUST BE CLOSE, GRABS

Gloomy Tira- FRAMES, MOVEMENT, BEs, WALL COMBOS, DAMAGE, TCs/TJs, WHIFF PUNISHER, CE, PRESSURE, SCARY, effed me up at evo, POKES, GRAB GAME, SAFETY, wake up game
WEAKNESS- YOU CAN CHANGE TO BACK TO JOLLY

ALGOL- FRAMES, DAMAGE, BE, CE, TOOLS, MIXUP, BUBBLES
WEAKNESS- WEARS A THONG OR PANTIES,
A
Alpha- DAMAGE, HE FLASHES WHITE, GRABS, SAFE LAUNCHERS EVERYWHERE, praises, PUNISHES, 2a --> CE, 2142k, TWISTA, TRADES IN HIS FAVOR
Weakness: NO MOVEMENT, NO FRAMES, ONLY LAUNCHES, HARD TO WHIFF PUNISH FAST MOVE IF NOT 8WAYRUNING WITH LAUNCHERS. HE'S NOT SETSUKA, NO MID STEP KILLAS, NEED TO BE FLAWLESS BUT HUMANS ARE FLAWED, JUMPING, NO GAUGE DAMAGE
Omega
FRAMES, DAMAGE, TAS B, TC, CE PUNISH, FRAMES AND GAUGE DAMAGE, POKES,

WEAKNESS: UGLY EYES, NEED TO BE STRAIGHT FORWARD.

Natsu- RISK> REWARD
A-
Astaroth
Mitsurugi
B+
Ivy

im not done! but too tired

 

WEAKNESS: UGLY EYES

;__;

 

;__;

No need to cry Poon Slayer.

 

(Yes, I'm singling you out >:D )

What do you think it is that makes Nightmare top tier? I haven't seen anyone claim such in months, not even the worst of the scrubbiest players even I can body without effort seem to be believing it at this point. Of course I'm asking because I disagree, I'm interested in what causes the difference in opinion.

Would be happy to respond. I just cant seem to win against him without being able to just guard every-move he does. In all honesty the main reason I put him up there is because I do not know the match up. It is the equivalent of some beginner thinking Raphael is the best because they cant beat him. I'm sure if I got to know him more I would not think this :)

 

What is up with Algol placing so high?
Seriously, am I missing something?

 

I'm content with where Tira is. She deserves to be there. All those who said she was low tier should watch EVO12

 

Pat's definitely a top tier character. So A+ definitely.

I think that B list needs to have a B -

Xiba kind of really sucks more than people realize IMO. I can't put him on even ground with most of the characters in the B list. It's not really a mystery why people seem to barely use him these days. The lack of exposure will cause people to not be fully prepared for Xiba but still most seem to have an easy enough time dealing with him.

To be specific, his range is very unimpressive, he lacks a strong punishment game. His agi is good, probably one of his better points and the CE. He can be linear, his best horizontals are highs so they will get tech crouched and ducked. 33_66 AA BE should be NC and safer on block. Playing him, I always get the sense that he is incomplete.

 

Off the top of my head, I'd say my version of the tier list would look something like this:
S-Tier:
Viola
Cervantes
Alpha Patroklos
Mitsurugi

A-Tier:
Patroklos
Pyrrha
Natsu
Pyrrha Omega
Astaroth
Algol

B-Tier:
Nightmare
Tira
Hilde
Voldo
Ivy
Xiba
Maxi
Yoshimitsu(or C Tier)

C-Tier:
Ezio
Siegfried
Aeon
Lexia

D-Tier:
Raphael
Z.W.E.I.
Dampierre

S-Tier: These guys got it all. Damage, Mixup, Speed, Safety, Space control, you name it.
A-Tier: These guys are very strong and extremely well adapted to this version of the game. They've got flaws but they've still very good at adapting to almost any matchup.
B-Tier: These guys are competitive. they have a good balance of strengths and weaknesses, and can adapt relatively well to most situations.
C-Tier: These guys are viable. that being said they've got their fair share of weaknesses, and there are a variety of situations that they struggle in, characters that they struggle against or attributes that they lack. they can still do damage, but they're not as consistent as others, or as reliable. keeping that in mind, if you underestimate them, you're in for a rough time. these guys will shred you for matchup ignorance. they can still win, they just dont look pretty getting there.
D-Tier: These guys have a tough time. They're vulnerable to alot of things, and have alot of holes and weaknesses. their damage isnt necessarily bad, but their consistency is. I wouldnt say these guys cant win, since even they have good matchups against some characters, but its an uphill battle against most of the cast. still they may be able to pull a win out occasionally when they need it, whether based on luck, ignorance, or just one of those matches when everything goes according to plan.

now if you want me to be snarky:

S-TIER = BAN US!!!
A-TIER = NERF US!!!
B-TIER = WE'RE OK!!!
C-TIER = BUFF US!!!
D-TIER = HELP US!!!

Feel free to give me feedback if ya want!

 

I was playing today... I picked Raphael and messed around a little.

I went back to Pat and... I felt naked. I felt myself reaching for 3A but it wasn't there. I saw whiffs I couldn't punish. I always had to run forward... Honestly, I don't like running forward. I am the type of guy that played Vergil in DMC3SE and only used teleports to move because it looked cool, and stood still and dodged at the last second because it looked cool.

Don't run down the hall, even when monsters are there. Casually stroll by like they don't exist.

Exertion is so blasé, you know...

Playing Pat felt dirty and uncomfortable. It felt like how Lolo colorfully describes Pat. And I feel awkward, because all the listings here tell me I'm wrong.

I went back to Raphael and it... It felt like I had found something I had lost. Felt like I had been looking for this all this time and I didn't know it.

Felt like home.

CH spacing with 6BBB and BBB is amazing (though somewhat difficult to confirm 100%).
Whiff punishing from anywhere on the screen feels great and you don't need special charges (Hilde).
66B has super long range and + frames when you're late?!
3A is i14 horizontal mid that's arguably better than Nightmare's 3K.
Speaking of which, 2K is comparable to Nightmare's 1K, which I consider to be one of the best low kicks in the game. Looks like backstep traps work the same, too.
66A+G is 60 damage with great oki. B+G is only 45, but... the distance! You get a ringout or wallsplat if you're anywhere near the edge... Wallsplats are 85 damage minimum! I can't even get that with Pat half the time off 66B+G!
33B does an unusual amount of damage for a low with that kind of range...
33K BE is 75-85 damage. Really?? i16 +8 on block and you get 4 of them?!

I was inspired after watching Gohan. Not going into Prep after 66B really blew my mind, and I thought... Maybe I'm missing something about this character?

If he is the bottom of the bottom, I think this game is relatively balanced. He has some good stuff. I know that Dampierre has Bravo! Encore! and various ways to get it, so I think maybe not too much disparity lies between the top and the bottom.

Admittedly, I haven't put him through his paces... haven't suffered crushing defeat yet. Maybe I am being too optimistic...?

 

Alright everyone, enough foolishness.

God Tier:
Raphael (2p)

S Tier:
Raphael (1p)

A Tier:
Raphael (CAS)

B Tier:
--------------
(wait there are other characters you can pick?)

*I thought this would be the appropriate time to use this, also I didn't make this picture. One of your fellow 8wayrunners did*

 

snip

You didnt' even mention his 6BB BE, which I think is one of his strongest CH moves despite the meter cost! yay lets all feel good about raph.

 

What is up with Algol placing so high?
Seriously, am I missing something?

I placed Algol towards the bottom of the second highest tier because i believe he does have some great tools. He has to be played differently, he isnt strong in the typical sense of having great punishers or a devastating low / mid mix up. But he does have some other things such as his shoryuken, his damage with meter and even decent damage without it, his bubble frame traps, and deceptively good range on a few moves. I dont think he's at the top, but i believe he's somewhere up there.