So, read the whole thread and these are thoughts going around about Yoshi:
"I don't know, C-tier?"
-nubs
"I own Signia and he's the best Yoshi so he's bottom tier also I'm trying to troll him"
-Xeph
"He's actually really good"
-Other people who've played me or Lolo when he mained Yoshi
So uh, yeah I agree with LP's placing. Fuck you Xeph!!
In all seriousness though, Yoshimitsu seems like gimmicky garbage until you see a high-level player use them. Every character looks stronger when a strong player uses them, but with Yoshi, there is a huge divide.
You have to be good at everything to play Yoshimitsu...
-If you can't execute or CH-confirm, you have bottom tier damage, can't use his BEs, and can't utilize his ringout game.
-If you can't JG, you will easily be kept out and spaced and will lose opportunities for big damage that he needs.
-If you don't understand spacing and know how each character does it, you won't know how you have to play at various ranges and it will hurt you more with this character than any other.
-If you can't whiff punish well with other characters, you won't be able to whiff punish anything with Yoshi.
-If you don't know all the frames, you won't know how to set up iMCF, how to catch backsteps, and when you're able to attack safely at mid-range.
-If you don't have a feel for the length of the block or hit stun of every move, you won't be frame perfect on iMCF and you'll make the move slower and less useful than it is.
-If you can't read your opponent, at least which mixup they're thinking about, the risk/reward on your mixups won't be good enough.
-If you can't handle a large effective movelist and high execution, playing Yoshi will wear you down
But if you master these things...
-Your step-catching will be highly damaging and will ring out very far
-Your whiff punishing will be among the best
-Close range will be uninhabitable for your opponent
-Your opponent will be constantly worried about iFC3K while risking interruption or spacing if they try to stop it
-You will wear out your opponent by forcing them to react quickly and think about frames too much
BUT even you cannot do these things, a good player can still pick up and play Yoshimitsu because his basics are comparable to the top tier's. BB is i14 +4 -6 and his AA has decent range being i12 +6 -6. 3K is i14 +6 -6 and is a tracking mid. His 2A is the standard fast 2A and his 2K is the standard 2K except the damage is a bit low. His go-to jumping attack, j.K a tracking, knockdown, RO/wallsplatting mid at i20 but is -12. For punishment he has 6K for -15s and 3B, which reaches further than you think, for -17s, both way above average. There's also 2B for all those -16s that push out far. He even has i13 +8 -6 mid in 6B.
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So, a lot of you are probably thinking, WTF is this guy talking about? iMCF isn't that great! His whiff punishing is awful! What's this damage you talking about, he's got nothing! His tracking is sucks too!
Oh, you sad, sad little man.
(what follows are excerpts from my work-in-progress Yoshi guide)
3B DOES A LOT OF DAMAGE
On landing a 3B or any other launcher, you get 60 damage with 3B 6K or 43 into a damaging UB setup with 3B a:B+K, a mixup where the opponent has a 1/3 chance of guessing right. I usually go for the mixup unless the round will end with 6K.
The mixup that Yoshi gets every time he gets a launcher or a CH that can be converted into a CH iMCF, and then converted into a launch is as follows:
-Step-in 8A+BG cannot be avoided by a large portion of the cast, and must be rolled forward or back-teched (under Yoshi) by the rest. It can't be punished if forward rolled, but can be if back-teched. It does 40 damage + 10 from 3B/2B tacked on the end of it if it hits grounded, and 73 damage if they tech using the 66A+B followup (added to the initial damage from before the a:B+K). 90-something damage if they get hit grounded, 110ish if they tech.
-Immediate 8A+BG catches everything but play-dead and sometimes left roll. Same damage as Step-in 8A+BG. This includes forward rolls. If you take a tiny step, one that's not big enough for the move to hit grounded, it looks like something that can be forward rolled, but it actually can't. This makes mixing between these two ambiguous. If they play-dead and it misses, you are not only safe but are at advantage.
-66A+B beats forward rolls tech traps forward and back tech and left tech on some characters, dealing 18-25 extra damage and is safe, usually making the combo around 75 damage. If it catches a tech it's 60 extra damage or more if you go for another tech trap, making it 100-something damage. So this beats both options that beat either Step-in or Immediate 8A+BG, while either of those two beat what beats 66A+B. This is why they only have a 1/3 chance of guessing right if you use these three options equally.
There are other options though.
-236B beats only "play-dead," but beats it harder than 66A+B does, doing 60 extra damage. However, it is forward rollable on close launches and can always be side-teched.
Yes, a close launch works differently than a far launch. This shit's complicated! Basically the thing that's different is now you have to step too far in order for 8A+BG hit grounded. It takes so long that now it's possible to tech and step it. So now to hit grounded it's better to do 236B, and mix that with Immediate 8A+BG and 66A+B. This is also what you have to do against Pyrrha, PyrrhaO, and in the mirror match, since 8A+BG can never hit grounded against them.
BUT what if they can tech and JG 8A+B? First off, I've never seen anyone do it every time. Second, even if they do pull it off, it's safe, you're at -8 or something. I usually respect my opponent's abilities once they do it twice, as they've proven to me that they WILL tech and they probably will JG it. The mixup THEN is:
-8A+B~G, the middle-timing cancel of the deathcopter. This normally useless option (needed against Leixia crybaby too) now will hit for 91 damage (60+31 damage from 66A+B followup = 91) if someone is JGing to the timing of 8A+BG. Option select JG-sidestep to beat both is prohibitively difficult or impossible.
or
-iFC3K, which catches all techs. It does 40 extra damage. Not sure how punishable it is if they don't tech. I wanna say it's -14-15. Now we just need to beat "don't tech."
and
-66A+B. Or you can go for 236B or just keep doing Step-in 8A+BG. They can both options, iFC3K and whichever one you choose if you don't just 66A+B, so it's either a mix between 66A+B and iFC3K (which is kinda weak) or it's the same mix as before but with iFC3K added in.
iMCF IS AMAZING
It's i10 from standing, i9 from crouch. It TCs. It's -3 on block. On CH, it leads to... ^that. It can be used... pretty much any time! Just throw it out, see what happens. JUST DO IT. Oh, it whiffed? Who cares lol, they can't whiff punish it on reaction. Oh it got blocked? Perfect, you're at -3! That's the ideal time to... DO IT AGAIN. iMCF recovers in crouch, so at -3, your i9 iMCF comes out at i12. That's faster than a standing 2A, and anything faster than that is a high... which will be TC'd. That's right folks, iMCF frame traps into itself.
Against characters who don't even have a fast 2A, -4 to -6 is fair game for iMCF, depending on how slow the character is. -4 is like every time you get hit and -6 is like every they block you. And of course -2 is whenever you 2K them, making the move feel like advantage on hit against every character.
iMCFing a lot forces your opponent into using fast attacks, jump attacks or it forces them to back off.
-Even when your opponent can interrupt an iMCF, it's usually only with a select few moves. It limits their options to only fast, short ranged or unsafe moves. Depends on the character, but whatever it is, you know it's coming, and you can probably either backstep it or block and punish it. Even when your opponent is attacking from a place from where iMCF would surely whiff, attacks extend hitboxes, so iMCF will usually reach if their attack will.
-Against jump attacks, Yoshi has a few really good options. One is a:B+K, which starts the UB setup if it hits someone in the air. Another is 6K, which can easily be confirmed into the second K, which (usually?) can't be air-controlled. This does 99 damage, though 6K is unsafe. One last one is 6B, the fast mid punch, which relaunches high enough to do 6K for 50 something damage.
-If they backstep, they're at the mercy of iFC3K or 2G4KB if they're close enough. If they're not close enough, they've spaced properly. In this case, following them right away puts you in a bad spot if they decide to backstep and poke you. There's no real answer to backstep at (their) advantage except a mixup between dashing in and running a iFC3K-mid mixup. The exception is at -4 or better you can 44:bB, which is i16, and catch a CH on backsteps and convert it into a launch.
So, every time to you land one of these practically risk-free punches on CH, you can either launch into setups or bA for max damage of 69.
HIS WHIFF PUNISH IS ... GOOD
For sidestep, he's got 3B, and I've already said how good that is. 22K and 22B can be used for bigger whiffs, but they can randomly whiff up close. At range, 22K won't guarantee followups but 22B is good.
For backstep, ... 3B. It does have enough range, more range than 66B, but your spacing must be tight. Outside of that, you have 44KB for 46 damage. For big whiffs, however, like against characters who can throw out long ranged moves that can't be whiff punished even by 44KB, you have 33A+B. I don't input it like 33A+B, but do it out of 8WR already so it comes out faster. I do 4, (see whiff) 4123A+B. It's important to do the 33A+B version because with this version, it's possible to combo into iMCF for HUGE damage.
So his whiff punishing isn't the best in the game, but if you land 3B and run the setup when you can, he's definitely up there. If you can land 33A+B iMCF 3B, you either get 93 damage with 6K or 82 into damaging setups -- definitely a top tier whiff punish, though it's not always possible on reaction to whiffs, usually requires a commitment. Seems to work against NM 3K (hit) 1K (whiff) and 1K (hit) 1K (whiff) if you commit.
And how could I forget CE? His CE does 110 damage, but it has the range of his BB, so it can only really be used as a sidestep punish. It's i16 but the input time will be the deciding factor.
HIS STEP CATCHING IS RISKY BUT DAMAGING AND RINGS OUT FAAAAAR -- AND HIS BEs DON'T SUCK
Yoshi is not linear. He has a great basic AA, and combined with a good dash, there's your safe range tracking. 44A is a safe tracking mid if that's what you really need (against Natsu/Pyrrha), though its range is lacking for its speed.
66A is -12 so fast characters can punish you and you're right in their face for mixups if they block it. Conversely, if they get hit by it, you're at high positive frames and they're subject to your mixup. The range isn't so great, though.
iFC3K is what your opponents at range should be afraid of, though. It's a tracking, long range, low sweep that does 40 damage. It's like Mitsu's 2KB, except it has more range, doesn't cost meter, isn't punished with standing attacks, and does 10 less damage.
But where his tracking abilities really shine is in his BEs. Everyone, even most Yoshi players, think his BEs suck. That's only really true for 6B BE, the BE iMCF, which is i13, has more range, and has even less total frames than normal iMCF, but it's never really necessary if you can do normal iMCF.
66A BE - does 91 damage or 79 into setups on CH. Can be stepped and punished hard on block and combos on NH for a measly 41, but the damage is totally worth it. As a bonus, the move also pushes the opponent a long distance in between the first and second hit, and that distance added to what you get with the launch makes for insane ringout potential. Replace iMCF with 6B BE and/or 3B with 3A BE and the distance becomes a ringout doom combo.
3A BE - Similar to 66A BE, but the BE extension is easily CH confirmable. You also have the option to use it as a delay-string mixup. 3A is -14 on its own, but threatens with the rest of the string. This move can replace 3B in iMCF combos in order to ringout over short walls if 4A JFs is too difficult for you.
So... notice anything interesting about these two BEs? They're tracking... and they ringout. So... if they're by the edge, and they want to be NOT by the edge, they want to step away. But, these moves will ring them out if they do that, by any definition of "close to edge!" The existence of these options offers powerful control over ring positioning that no other character has.
His ringout game is THE BEST in the game with a Viola in a close second with third far away, and his BEs lead to his highly damaging setups. Instead of low-risk low-reward step-catching, which is always how tracking has been in SC, he has high-risk high-reward step-catching.
HE IS NOT THAT WEAK TO KEEPAWAY
With good JGing, no character can really be kept out. But most of you (ok, all of you) do not utilize step-in JG so you do not know why this is true.
Even without JG though, Yoshi has powerful options at range and can even play comfortably at mid-range in a few matchups.
The most important option is iFC3K. No other character has a tool like this one, and it messes up everyone's idea of how to space a character. Normally, when you're at mid range, there is little reason to duck, especially in this game, where there are so many safe tracking mids. With this move, Yoshi can stay at a range where he can run mid-low mixups but the opponent can't. The move can't be read on reaction, and those who think they can will be fooled by 2G4KB. Eventually you will be predicted and punished hard for it, but predicting requires ducking, which stops movement and temporarily limits their movelist, not to mention risks getting hit by mids.
For safe poking, there's 2B. Most characters cannot get the range Yoshi does at i16. Why is i16 important? Well, for 2K/1K setups. If someone does a spaced 2K/ 1K on you, they can usually backstep anything that will interrupt another 2K/1K. Another 2k/1k at i15 +2 will come out at i17, so you have to look to your character's moves that will reach a backstep and trade favorably with another 1K. Against Yoshi, a character that's supposedly easy to keep out, this common setup should work on him, right? Wrong. 2B beats both options, and they have to have a fast 2A to beat you out.
2B's range and safety makes for an ability to control the mid range. Even though it does little damage (18), throwing it out there limits options. 2B is the only safe, non-committal tool Yoshi has to check them at this range, the range where they can throw out safe pokes with no possible retaliation, so this makes this range harder for them enter and run their spacing game. It's also worth noting that move TCs, so you can step around and throw it out while TCing their high-tracking and being safe on whiff to stray high tracking moves.
The 4A series, which is highly underestimated, is a tracking high and gets Yoshi in. The first few attacks may whiff, but if they try a standard whiff punish, they may get hit by the next attacks. If they block, they still don't know if you're going to stop, so you can run string mixups against them. On hit, the string becomes a natural combo. What most people don't know and never seem to learn is that in this game, 4As are +1 or +2 on hit, depending on the range. In SCIV, it was - on hit. So if you land a hit, you're up close at advantage, a great place to be. If it gets blocked, you have a string mixup. Yoshi is especially good in string mixups because of iMCF, I don't think I need to explain why.
Lastly, you can just give up on getting in and run IND mixups (MED in SCIV). Some characters have good answers to every option, but sometimes the timing can get messed up by a quick heal or IND 2A+B where Yoshi teleports into nothing. If they can't or are unable to stop the mixup, the risk reward is pretty good. IND A tracks both ways and is very hard to backstep. It's +2 on hit. IND K tracks one way and is hard to step the other way, but is easy to backstep. If it hits it does big damage. IND B is advantage on block. The mixup has unlimited range, so if you really can't get in someone, you can force them to play a guessing game with this.
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So, his so-called weaknesses can easily be overcome, but you must a be a great player to bring out his potential. This isn't to take away from the abilities of players of other characters, but from the perspective of a tier list, which is a ranking based on each character's potential Yoshi definitely belongs in at least the second highest tier group. Nobody is going to read all this, are they
