The One True SCV Tier List/Character Discussion Thread

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FenrisZero said:
Yoshi has to rely on poking with 3K and 4K so he can move in and start an offence, which can both be stepped to the left. Apart from having poor long range tools, Yoshi is also missing a good mixup game. Yoshi's stances can all get beat out by simply jumping backwards or BBing. Most of Yoshi's setups are slow enough that you can react to them and evade accordingly.
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Both those are remedied by iFC3K. It has slightly longer range than 4K and is border-line unseeable, and if they are moving it won't matter. 40 damage.
Meter is another area where Yoshi is out shined by most of the cast. He has terrible BEs and an easy mode iMCF which in almost all cases is worse than regular iMCF. Most Yoshi players agree that the best way to use meter is to GI into CE.
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66A BE can be a big risk for a big reward, but yeah, not the best BE. BE iMCF is a bit underrated, as its range is as long as his A. 3A BE is solid, though. CH confirmable launcher from a tracking mid that threatens players from stepping by the edge or get rung out (66A BE can do the same thing but with more range and more risk).

The BEs can be situational, though. Good thing his CE is amazing. at 110-120 damage, it's the highest damaging CE behind Algol and Viola. It breaks in 7 blocks, almost always guaranteeing a guard break they're in the red, but only after pushing them a good distance. It it ends up hitting, 66A+B must be GI'd or they very likely will be broken then. He has the best GI into CE (behind Viola?).

Which leads me to his post GI game; Bad. Unless your opponent is in front of a wall, you're looking at 3B a:B+K deathcopter mixups.
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I thought that was pretty good, I get over 100 if they tech and mess up the JG, 83 total for iFC3K all techs trap, mid-70s if they stay grounded for 66A+B, 90-something if they front or back tech. To beat re-GI he has 1K for 90 damage, which is safe on block but steppable.
 
Mine is very similar to everyone else:

S- Viola, A-pat.

A- Cervy, Mitsu, Omega, Pyrhha, Natsu, Algol

B- Nightmare, Siegfried, Xiba, Pat, Tira, Maxi, Ezio, voldo, Astaroth, Hilde, Ivy, Yoshi

C- Leixia, Aeon, Raphael, Zwei.

This list I just made I'm not even sure if I believe it myself.

I'm completely on the fence with raphael. On one hand, he has a very annoying combination of decent speed and good spacing. At the same time, his damage output overall may be the worst in the game. He doesn't seem to have any "spectacular" move that defines him.

I would like to hear people's opinions on Raphael. Is everyone underestimating him or is he really that bad?
 
Signia said:
I thought that was pretty good, I get over 100 if they tech and mess up the JG, 83 total for iFC3K all techs trap, mid-70s if they stay grounded for 66A+B, 90-something if they front or back tech. To beat re-GI he has 1K for 90 damage, which is safe on block but steppable.
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Mixups are not guaranteed and I've beaten Deathcopter with Rugi FC 3B and FC 1B on wake up so I'm sure other characters can do the same.
 
Raphael is the perfect antithesis to a certain style of play, and that is the fact that he kills turtles. The fact that this primary strength stems from a player vs player thing I see why it cannot really be stated in his favor as an argument of his viability. However, there is a very specific spacing where Raphael dominates any character in the game, especially if they are trying to get in with attacks, and even if they block my pokes on the way in their guard gauge is being heavily damaged.

He has to be played a certain way in my eyes to succeed and it is rather different from most characters in the game. With great defense Raphael becomes the most obnoxious character in the game to deal with based on his superb range that works in tandem with his speed. There is a reason why he gives characters such as Mitsurugi, Siegfried, and ZWEI a difficult time.

This seems kinda abstract probably because it is. Raphael has weaknesses yes but I think he is very capable of winning.
 
Raphael usually can't press frame advantage and have good risk/reward, so he is constantly on the backfoot. Surprisingly though, that isn't that big of a deal. A common way to play this game is to guess right and get frame advantage, then guess between beating movement, stuffing attacks from disadvantage, and doing hit-level mixups if they just block. But you don't have to. Instead you can play the neutral game the whole time, if you want. Some characters are better than others at forcing a neutral game (the situation where attacks are delayed and everyone might as well be at neutral frames +0) and strength in the neutral game is entirely dependent on space control. Raphael is good at both of those.

With his evades, accessible whiff punishing, and a fast, damaging CH tool (6BB), he can discourage the opponent from attacking at advantage. Stopped strings and entering-prep mixups can also keep them guessing. When Raph is at advantage, it's dangerous to attack still due to his linearity. With both players not attacking right away, movement opens up and Raph can stand in his dominant spacing.

In the neutral game, Raph controls mid-long range with fast pokes that threaten with string followups, like 3B, A, B, BB. While spacing in the right place, Raph's linearity feels like less of a weakness. Everyone is linear outside of the range of their step catchers. 66A is pretty good at range. He can also kinda cover the side he steps to with 22_88B, and just keep spamming that at good spacing, due to spacing it leaves him at on block, the fact that he doesn't stick out his hand very far during the attack, and the low total frames making it hard to whiff punish. His strength in the neutral also comes from his accessible whiff punishes, too. It's hard to whiff punish Raph's quick pokes, but Raph can punish anything with 3(B)BB for like 38 or something (better than getting nothing!). For close range sidestep whiff punishes he has 33B BE which does like 72, which is solid.

All that said, he's still not that good, lol. His ring control and ringout ability is the worst. He's better by the wall than he was in SCIV but his wall game is still pretty bad. Damage is too low and he isn't the only character with a strong neutral game, and other characters have non-neutral games that actually exist.

FenrisZero said:
Mixups are not guaranteed and I've beaten Deathcopter with Rugi FC 3B and FC 1B on wake up so I'm sure other characters can do the same.
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Lol uhhh I don't think that's even close to possible on deathcopters after launch-a:B+K. Maybe your opponent forgot to press or G or 2 after 8A+B. The mixup itself is guaranteed... there is no option that beats all of yoshi's options.
 
I thank you guys for the responses.

Damn Signia. I feel like you completely nailed it on the head about Raph. I've always felt like he had this very specific niche set of strengths and lots of weaknesses, I just couldn't consciously put it into such a specific analysis.

On the other hand, I am a firm believer that everyone plays best when they use a character that they enjoy using. That's why I don't care how low tier me might be :)
 
I dont see how Raphael can discourage an opponent from attacking, advantage or not. He lacks good and fast, damaging counter tools to stop abuse of TC / TS / TJ attacks from destroying him.

Concerning Asta vs Leixia, I stand by my words. Astaroth can fish counter against Leixia if she wants to play her game, and the damage difference IS a very real issue for her in that case. One could argue on a 5-5 but I cant picture an advantage Leixia at all.
 
damn-I-Suck said:
Who would you say is worse, raph or zwei?
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Imo Raph is the worst character in this game.

Easy steppable and almost no good anti step moves in general, RO game is a joke, damage overall is weak, speed is mediocre(at least his 2A is very good), throws are OK, punish game is OK, range is very good but his stance transitions are quite easy to interrupt and you don´t have to fear any mid/low or throw/mid mixups.
 
Raphael 3A is the quintessential "get off me playa" move. i14 safe mid which gives ample opportunity to run away and continue exploiting spacing/range dominance. Even on normal hit +2 seems like a good idea for me just to do it again until I have an opportunity to escape. As for counter hit fishers...you have 6BB which is easily hit confirmed into the brave edge for around 70 damage, I can't find fault with an i12 long ranged high that does so much. 1K is also a decent fisher despite it being -16 on block. Raphael does not have to be in your face, he is perfectly dominant at a range like 22B and 22A tip range.

-But what about moves like Natsu 66B that avoids it all!

Good thing Raphael has superb movement and whiff punishment range, so if I am at this sweet spot spacing I can simply back up and whiff punish. I hope the Raph soulcast comes out soon, I did a write up that may help some points of view.
 
Side stepping 3A? That's news to me. He isn't supposed to be a high damaging character, he just gives you paper cuts all game that add up from punishment and general pokes. When you incorporate that with whiff punishment and mixups he isn't bad.

EDIT: On counter hit it gives him +11 and a good range for him
 
JAGTHEGEMINI said:
Imo Raph is the worst character in this game.

Easy steppable and almost no good anti step moves in general, RO game is a joke, damage overall is weak, speed is mediocre(at least his 2A is very good), throws are OK, punish game is OK, range is very good but his stance transitions are quite easy to interrupt and you don´t have to fear any mid/low or throw/mid mixups.
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Finally, someone with a brain!
Namco just went completely coo coo and made Raph the worst character in the game after the patch.
 
One thing that bothers me is, how much does execution factor in tier lists?

I see Alpha at the top in everyone's list but do you consider the fact that double twisters WILL be missed sometimes and that not all -12 moves are going to be punished by JF twister? If we're going to assume that execution is not a factor, can we also assume that every CE is going to be Just Guarded whenever it can be blocked. Are we also going to assume that every move that can be blocked on reaction can also be Just Guarded in reaction? It seems to me that the whole 'execution should be discounted' mentality is only applied on easily measurable scenarios (i.e. hard to execute punishes/combos) whereas defense is subject to execution limitations. From what I've seen, low execution characters like Mitsurugi, Patroklos and Pyrrha have had generally much more success in tournaments than higher execution ones, which would suggest that it is indeed important. Taking a cue from sports (they've been around for much longer than SC), I don't it would be wise to evaluate a boxer's abilities from how fast he can do his fastest jabs; it's much more complex than that.

There is one other thing that I think we should consider which is also very hard to measure: the psychological factor. Regarding the Pyrrha vs Omega discussion earlier, I think nobody mentioned that Pyrrha should be placed higher because she can harass her opponent more and lead him into making mistakes. On the other hand, sure DNS B is punishable by a lot of moves, but if you're not expecting it, what are the chances of you actually being fast enough to punish it? Same goes for Raphael; yes his damage output is comparatively low, but since he can attack with good speed from almost any range and has good mixups as well, I would say he can be very threatening in the right hands. He has the ability to lead you into making mistakes.

I myself do not have any tournament experience, so I won't pollute this thread by submitting my personal tier list, but I do think this should be food for thought.
 
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