The Resolution thread!!

Sorry I don't recall this being a Maxi SA thread about holding your hand on a step-by-step tutorial on how to beat Algol with Maxi, because you know, I OWE it to you to go to such lengths, my apologies...


..I'd rather be sarcastic and move on.


cha cha
 

This argument stems from the same idea that since you, personally, do not have enough character knowledge to beat another specific character, they must be broken. Cha Cha already listed a few ideas off the top of his head for how Maxi may gain position advantage and lock down Algol, and every character has options to get up close and stay there, though some have more than others.

As Tiamat said earlier, the burden of proof lies with you. We can't disprove a negative.
 
Felix007 said:
This argument stems from the same idea that since you, personally, do not have enough character knowledge to beat another specific character, they must be broken.
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It must be nice playing Ivy... Life's not too hard when you bypass the bubble shield from 2 kilometres away? But sure it takes skills to do so. You're skilled, that's why the Algols you fight don't bother with bubble shields. (Or they do, and fail.)

Cha Cha listed moves that are useful once you're close enough to attack Algol. Assuming that you got that close, and assuming that he somehow didn't attack you with 1A or such.
Or better yet, and certainly more probable, he listed moves that work if Algol isn't using a bubble shield against him.

I'll remind you that he didn't show any video to show how he supposedly beat Algol. So we won't know if his Maxi experience has anything to do with what I've been complaining about in the past few pages.
 
The saddest thing is that a lot of people are doing the same thing Plume is doing without realizing it.
 
Yoshi solutions to the bubble shield: MED goes under bubbles. MED 2A+B gets behind Algol. MED A, B, and K can be used when Algol gets close. MED 6A+B A+B if you want to slide forward. MED 2B+K to gain life and force Algol to do something. GI the bubbles. Step the bubbles. Block the bubbles. Wait for the 4A+B bubbles to move far enough away so you can attack straight on. REF A+B B counter attack the bubbles and mash / time the JF to gain life as a bonus. 9A+B and its variations at the appropriate distance.

Now, move along to the proper SAs and beg people for help on how to play against Algol since you obviously can't figure it out for yourself. Let people who have actual contributions to make to this thread post without you trolling.
 
Tiamat said:
The saddest thing is that a lot of people are doing the same thing Plume is doing without realizing it.
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What, asking to Algol players how their character is supposed to beat Algol's bubbles?

I know, I saw several identical posts on this forum and on soulcalibur. Sad, isn't it? Yet the solution seems so close and so simple...

Maybe you could ...dunno... tell people how to beat Algol's bubbles?
If I was in your shoes, I'd be willing to risk it! Because copypasting "you're just not good" must be tiresome after a while.


Edit: We're all tired of that, and none of you will reveal the "great secret" any time soon. So we don't have to keep that up.
 
I don't want to restem an argument, but I would like a GENUINE and SINCERE opinion for my questions that I don't believe were properly addressed before. Now I'm still new to the tournament scene, and by all means, am not the greatest player in the world, but I believe my views are valid. The reason I am posting (or rather, RE-posting) this is for the sake of compromise. I believe that if both sides are viewed and addressed, only then is a compromise possible.

I posted and favored to ban Hilde on the last thread. But I read nearly every comment, and don't feel I received a sufficient refute as to why I am wrong about her. I think she is an OVERALL "normal" character worth playing, but ONE MOVE (her charge-ups) potentially unbalances the character enough for me to believe she is broken and can hurt tournament play. Wanna know exactly how? Go here and look for my post: http://www.8wayrun.com/f21/ban-hilde-t2286/page13.html. If there is anyone on the other side of the fence, please provide for me a counter to why I am wrong.

[/quote]
Why should I have to stand 30 feet back to avoid a simple combo? Why does she have +frames on block? Some may say use 8wr to get away, but that is not always successful, as its not completely safe since the moves are not 100% linear, so even then, its low risk/high reward for the hilde player.
[/endquote]

For these reasons, I believe she tips scales way too far in her favor except in a mirror match, because DOOM combo is way too safe and unopposable for such a generous reward.

As far as the other characters, SW, Bonus, Algol, I believe only Shura should be CONSIDERED for banning, because of her longer reach than Cervy. But even that is not enough for me to believe she should be banned, because she doesn't particularly add anything more threatening than a longer reach. I still hate Cervy/Shura but I don't think they are as over-the-edge as everyone says. Well, in soul calibur context anyways. I think Mitsurugi and Lizardman are much closer to game breaking than Shura (and they are bad). Starkiller's magical break-every-throw move only affects players who rely on throws more than others. Nothing else he does tips the scales too far in his favor. Nobody else, except maybe Yoda is more outlandish than the rest of the cast (especially the bonus chars, who are WORSE off than the regular characters).
 
Sure, my main is Ivy, and I have ways of punishing if Algol begins to start a bubble shield. I also play Seigfried, Nightmare, Cassandra, Yoshi, and a slew of others, and have no problems working to dismantle any bubble shield put forth. It requires me to be situationally aware of my spacing, limitations of the character in question, and reading what my opponent is about to do. It's not necessarily something that can be expressed in a textual format, much akin to learning to ride a bike.

Cha Cha never said he would provide any kind of video. You made this qualifier up in your mind so that you can dismiss everything he has said because it doesn't live up to your fabricated standard. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
 
I find it intriguing that now people are starting to talk about a balance perspective, but then when it gets to Yoda, it's "no, he just breaks the rules, I don't like that, I don't care if he's beatable or horrible."
 
since you're not a certain someone who simply gives up before trying, i'll address this.

BLACKSTAR84 said:
But I think Hilde crosses the line. Yes, the rest of her movelist is not that impressive, but nobody is considering that as the reason for her ban. Its her charge moves, its her doom combo. At worst, its a REDICULOUSLY POWERFUL combo thats completely safe and guaranteed. At best, its a completely safe INSTANT KILL. The latter point alone is enough reason to seriously consider banning her, but the fact that its a SAFE move is what sends her over the edge. If you didn't know, that's SNK-boss-level cheapness. Even in Guilty Gear, you will have to pay some kind of price for an instant kill move!
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there's a lot of stuff in this game that's ro instant-kill, of which also happens to be safe on block: kilik's fotd to asura can be broken but that doesn't lead to anything, and it ro's from the middle of a large ring stage. yoshi can imcf into several different kinds of ro options (including this: http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=6zF_eQnd_PE&feature=related). you don't need to do 4a:A:a:A:a as you can get more than one 44bb in a juggle. that being said, how easy is it to punish imcf? furthermore, how easy is imcf to implement into one's game given how fast it is? that's pretty good for a move that's, what, i9? lol.

the difference is that people haven't gotten abused by such things yet. hilde is easy to abuse if you let her abuse you, and the problem is that people are still frozen when they get locked down and they stop thinking and start panicking.

don't even use ceirn's regionals vids as a basis for banning. there were so many things he utilized that people who are familiar with hilde would never fall for (c3a blocked into c3b and actually having it hit? be real... that should hit rarely at best and should take several attempts to set up). the problem is people are viewing these cali regional vids and thinking "omg, if these really good players are losing to hilde, then it must be broken!" either that, or the players, although good, hadn't dealt with that kind of character and style and couldn't adjust.

Really, if this was present in any other game, ANY other game, she would be immediately banned. VF, SF, GG, even friggin Tekken! Only because of the history of this community is this topic even up for discussion.

i'm sorry, but i'm calling bullshit on the one game i'm more than familiar with that you listed (the rest i have no idea). i've been playing in tournaments for tekken since t3 and not once has a character ever been banned. the only character who wasn't was jinpachi in t5:dr, but he was made with the intention of being ultimately superior and he was on a level of akuma st broken. consider the characters in past tekkens that were simply badass: ttt/t3 mishimas, ttt ogres, ttt changs, t4 jin, t4 steve, t5 steve, t5 nina, t5 bryan... none of those characters, although way hardcore, were never banned.

The only way to avoid being in ANY sort of disadvantage, damage or not, is to hope she whiffs, which is completely laughable!

again, that's bullshit. firstly, you can step the move. but you know what... let's even say you're not good at stepping and say you're forced to block it. what's wrong with blocking the move and being forced to block again? the worst she can do is make you block another move. you're acting like "omg, i have to block this move, and then i have to block another one!? that's broken!" not really. yea, it's good on frames, but as long as you block there's nothing she's really going to do to hurt you. at that point she has to charge it again before she can ever use it. after then she's stuck not being able to use any b attacks or throws.

also, let's say you know that hilde is charging her b, but can't use it yet. what's stopping you from being sneaky and using a b throw? if she breaks it she just screwed up her charge, if she gets hit she's on the ground and is most probably in close range (not her forte). plus, she may have tried to break the throw and still lost her charge in the process.

The only people who actually think that's a logical answer are people who probably shouldn't be playing this game!

no, the people who have a logical answer are the ones who should be playing this game because they know there's a way around everything. nothing in this game is that broken that it can't be danced around one way or another. just because you haven't figured out that "sometimes a good defense is a good offense," doesn't mean that other people haven't.

Why should I have to stand 30 feet back to avoid a simple combo?

why the hell don't you try to bait the move and rush her down so she can't get breathing room to abuse that crap? why not block and make her use the rest of her movelist? why not try different things? who's fault is that?

Why does she have +frames on block?

because namco made it that way.

Some may say use 8wr to get away, but that is not always successful, as its not completely safe since the moves are not 100% linear, so even then, its low risk/high reward for the hilde player.

it's only a high reward if you let it hit you. blocking it nullifies a lot.


i'm going to tell you a story of what i deal with here in japan in explaining why she isn't broken and finish up from there. i'm not being scathing, nor am i being patronizing. just read and try to learn something from it.

the japanese players i've played against are much more defensive than american players i've played against. what i've begun to notice is that the better players instantly turn their game into turtling when i pick hilde. they won't attack until they know they find an opening. they'll block 3 or 4 charges in a row before coming in for an attack, and they make sure i don't get an opportunity to use any charges after that. if i do get a chance, they instantly go back into turtle mode and wait, yet again, for their chance to attack.

when this happens i'm forced to use hilde's other options. that becomes difficult because her other options... aren't that hot. her lows are really telegraphed to the trained eye (aside from 1k_2k), and her throw range could be better. i then use those regular moves to open up options for my charges. however, her other moves are crap for damage and they leave much to be desired with their obvious holes (1kk isn't safe, nor is ws a+b or 33_99k. the last hit of 3ba and 6bbb can be ducked. her long range movelist, outside of charges, doesn't track worth shit) . she has a really, really hard time knocking down a life bar when her charges are simply getting blocked. if i can't start opening up her charge options, i'll probably lose.

the problem with the vids of american players i've seen is that people seem to just forget that there's a thing called "patience". everyone seems so eager to attack hilde that they don't think about what they're doing and they just do it. if you play that way then you deserve to lose. it really makes shit seem broken when you don't know how to handle it; but, you got a brain... use it. it's not impossible to get around, trust me. i've seen people deal with it, and i can as well.
 
and as an addendum:

i just played a cervy that could by-passed all of my charges with the example i gave above. he played great defense and it totally screwed my charge game up. great stepping, step guarding, knowing when to block low and high, and knew when to interrupt and when to sit back. now, i know i'm not the know-all be-all with hilde, but i'm familiar enough with the series, and hilde, to know how to play her to an effective degree. he forced me to play his game and i was stuck using pokes for chip damage. i got the occasionally charge attack in there, but ultimately i ended up losing everytime i picked her. fortunately, he couldn't beat my voldo (a character that i would easily put above hilde in the tier ranking), but that's besides the point.

i know it's tough breaking the habit of offense, offense, offense, but once you remember what defense is she can be beaten.
 
Hilde does take patience, at no point against her can you get lax and start goofing off. And me and OOF would dare to pick the seesaw stage against her.

My theory is it's better to ban things early on, to let your community comfortably grow, then when things start to slow down, unban things to get people interested again. Because doing the unbans early on you take a risk for the success of your community. My theory is, that we let people get good at the game,(the game is still fairly new, and many great known great players have yet to surface, even possible new ones). And so far we have been successful with the ban rules, and so why not continue this way?

I wish we were like Japan which has their players in agreement, even with unbalanced characters in the game. Because at least the masses over there are in agreement. Over here we are in constant disagreement, and divided, and common sense would tell you this hurts our community. Then the obvious answer would be a middle ground, but people are too stubborn and most people are selfish to their own ends. Some of us actually worry whether this will effect offline tourney numbers like SC3. Remember during SC3 some people were concerned with the addition of online being a detriment to offline tournament numbers. With such a division, and careless lack of concern for other players opinions. What new player would bother coming back to(his/her opinion) a broken game? You all know the time, money and effort that is put in traveling, food, shelter...and the like to have an active tournament life. You think such sacrifices will happen to a game people hate, or can't have fun with, or consider competitively unserious?

And if online tournaments start taking some priority, then the possiblity of offline tournament numbers is further strained.

And in addition, whatsup with the ridiculous appeal to unban everything because new players want to use Yoda or custom their shit. Thats exactly the kind of mentality that kills games right there...appeal to casual gamers, you already have vets ready to quit the game because you're appealing to someone who won't even play this game some months from now, because a new shooter or FG is released. Instead of appealing to the very players that put in their freaking time and effort, to play this game seriously, you want to implement, rules that have no real focus on serious competition and piss of the very players that built the foundation of this community. That shit doesn't work...The hardcore players are the biggest selling point for new players, this I know to be true...gimmicks don't sell, any fucking game can have a gimmick. Players come because of the emphasis on competition, and a balanced game is the biggest selling point...Namco did us a favor and tried to balance SC4, the core roster is fairly balanced, niggas be crying about asura, Amy and them other bitches, but I know kats that use rock, and Zass very solidly, and personally as far as the core roster is concerned tiers are meaningless, everyone stands a chance.

However, Algol's bubbles and Hilde's doom combo are concerns...that must be addressed. Everyone or at least the majority of people believe that in competitive play, skill is the defining factor between a win and a loss. In fighting games, balance is where the tools of the characters, aren't so far apart, that there's still a great emphasis on the skill of a player to execute a win. Despite Zass being an ugly match-up against Kilik. Kilik can't asura his way to victory with a couble of other good moves. The kilik player if his up to per with the Zass player has to utilize the Universe tools of SC4's engine to win constantly...ie GI, step, spacing etc.

Algol's bubbles/shield. should be banned.
Why? Despite the fact they block the screen; Despite the fact they interfere with guaranteed combos; Despite the fact the opponent can lose track of them and get hit from behind. They do something even worse...This game is focused on a word called "pressure." Without this you have no presence in a fight, it doesn't matter how skilled you are if you never at any time in a match control pressure you have lost.
How is pressure built? In high level play most of us have seen what players do at the beginning of a fight, they space back words, why? To find an opening and be the first to control the pressure or the flow of the game...these first few seconds determine how the match will proceed. A gi here, a throw here, a low here, constantly within a match pressure is shifting as both players' brains are doing a ridiculous number of calculations.

This doesn't happen against Algol, especially certain match-ups. The bubbles stall for time, and make the opponent have no real presence in the fight until he gets in rage to actually start the fight. Algol, can control the direction of the bubbles by teleporting. The bubbles protect him when his at disadvantage. His back space is godly and 22A+B is probably the best spacing move ever made.

Algol without the bubble shield is an awesome character...he can still win even dominate tournaments. The bubbles add nothing to the game, no depth, nothing, they dramatically change the game entirely for a number of characters. Keeping them just for the sake of keeping them/ or more power to Algol players, is pointless and backwards.

Hilde's doom combo.
This is fine in my opinion, but it gives hilde a stage advantage. Even astaroth and nightmare players have to work to get their ring outs. With Hilde is only a matter of seconds, and it's expected...and remember her ringouts come from whiff punishing. One mistake and you gone son. You keep this in, you're playing a broken game...we must implement ring select to some degree or other.

Bonus characters, custom designers, Yoda players....you guys really like ugly shit don't you? Tasteless...but harmless, annoying if anything else.
 
Fear is the Path to the Dark Side.

Fear not Bubbles and Charges.

Bubbles...work against people that cant problem solve.

Charge's work on....people who cant read an opponent who hasn't used an A or B for the past 5 seconds.

See the Light. Avoid the Dark Side.

This is the way of the Jedi.
 
thanks Tribal for the honest look at my assestment.

I still think that her charge moves are way too generous, but I can completely see where you're coming from. I will certainly admit that I am very quick to rush in (though not nearly as much as before), and alot of times that leads me to get hit; where with other characters, I ignore it ftw, but with her, it's much more high stakes. I have to play turtle with her, but I thought that was just wrong at first--but now I see, that that's pretty much the way anybody (except maybe yoshi and cervy, who can simply teleport, and maybe even Ivy with her long range game) has to play against her. It simply changes the way I have to play the game, which even algol doesn't force me to do.

That's certainly alot to ask for any seasoned player, but this is the only game where its more or less required, which I think is why everybody finds it so weird and wants her nerfed (which I still think would be a good thing), among other characters. BUT, instead of crying foul, I'll just deal with it for now and see how I improve against her. Its certainly unfair, but that just makes me a much better player than a Hilde player if I win.

Thanks alot for all the tips, now I know for absolute certain how to deal with her, maybe I can vs. against you some day.
 
Well, I'm fine with Hilde now that I discovered Rock can't be hit by her doom combo. DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT BANNING ROCK!
 
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