Tier Discussion

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Heaton said:
Man, you people really hate Raphael.
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No, I love Raph, but Project Soul hates him. I picked him up and I feel like he has a lot of great tools, but he's just so linear that it pains me. Every other character in the cast has someone that does something he does but better.

First sensible buff for him would to actually make his CE RO...

Partisan said:
I can't win with Raph/don't use him but it just makes sense that he is...SICK-NASTY-BRO-TRASH.
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Only played one decent Raph on XBL: Dark NightxLord
 
Partisan said:
I can't win with Raph/don't use him but it just makes sense that he is...SICK-NASTY-BRO-TRASH.
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To be fair, you can't win with anyone that doesn't have a stupid spammable broken overpowered 66B. And that, my friend, is truly SICK-NASTY-BRO-TRASH.

Mandy said:
No, I love Raph, but Project Soul hates him. I picked him up and I feel like he has a lot of great tools, but he's just so linear that it pains me. Every other character in the cast has someone that does something he does but better.

First sensible buff for him would to actually make his CE RO...
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Something you may need to consider is that you're not playing him in a way that allows you to benefit from his tools and use him to his full potential. I had a similar epiphany recently and it's what led me to all but dropping Siegfried entirely. For example, I almost never have problem killing step because I'm either at close range where 2A cannot be stepped at all, or I'm at far range where their stepping is inconsequential to anything except positioning, which I can also control at that range by moving myself.

Linearity is rarely a problem for me just because his most linear moves are, in general, things you don't want to just throw out for no reason. 236B is now barely punishable, but even to those who it's not, the disadvantage on block can put you in such bad situations that it's preferable to only use this move when you know or anticipate a hit. 66B is similar to 236B, though you're allowed leeway with using it on block, and it can be a good option if you can't punish but still want to pressure at close range. 44B and 4B are great examples of insanely linear moves that should only be used on anticipation - that is, if you guess right, they have no chance of whiffing, and if you guess wrong, they have no chance of hitting, neither of which are the moves' fault, but yours for not having sufficient yomi.

And making his CE ring out doesn't really make sense. It's already very useful for interrupting strings and punishing things that are barely punishable - making it a clone of Patroklos' CE just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Raphael does have strengths, but people seem to just point at his weaknesses and end the discussion there. Of course I'd be happy with a buff, but anything I've seen people suggest in this topic wouldn't actually help a spacing/close range poke game at all. People suggest things like damage buffs or giving 22B back its 1.01 stun, and I think something like those would just supplement areas in which a buff doesn't directly help his playstyle. Raphael is one of the best spacing characters in this game with a slight emphasis on a solid (and annoying to the opponent) close range poke game, and when you think of Raphael buffs you need to think in relation to how will it will benefit his main game.

Ask yourself: if you're having trouble with Raphael, is it because the character is terrible and not viable under any circumstance? Or are you playing the character in a sub-optimal way that doesn't benefit from the character's inherent strengths, in which case you'd be better off playing a different character or learning the optimal way? It's not my intention to antagonize you, but instead to try and have you re-think how you play the game and what characters would benefit you the most. Save possibly for Dampierre (and even that's debatable), there isn't a single character in this game that is so terrible you cannot win with them ever. It might be worth it to your game to try some more characters and see if there's someone who fits you better - I have a feeling there most certainly is.

Azazel said:
I actually love the character
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There's an old saying: "If you love him, let him go." It doesn't apply at all in this context, but the point I'd like to make is that there isn't a single character on the roster that isn't viable. Even if Raphael is "bottom tier" as so many have put him in, he's light years ahead of where Mi-na, Rock, and Yoda were in SC4 comparatively. So even if he is bottom tier, it's only by an insanely slim margin, and he's still very much viable.
 
Heaton said:
Even if Raphael is "bottom tier" as so many have put him in, he's light years ahead of where Mi-na, Rock, and Yoda were in SC4 comparatively. So even if he is bottom tier, it's only by an insanely slim margin, and he's still very much viable.
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Hey now, Yoda won Evo. I agree a lot with what you said, but when you listed to what a lot of the 'pros' are saying about how the game is evolving, they're talking about how it's more offensive and rushdown then it is defensive. Granted Raph may be an excellent spacing/poke character, when the game lends itself to more aggressive play, Raph all of a sudden, is no longer as powerful as he should be.

My argument is just that if you take Pat you still get good pokes/range, just about the same damage, and what is in my opinion, a neater package. Then we look at characters like Mitsu who has tracking that just seems to be too much at times. In essence it comes down to "you can do everything that Pat can do as Raph, except you have to work 2 times harder", and if you're willing to work harder, you will be the better player, and your character will seem that much more powerful, but bottom line is if you grabbed Pat to begin with you would probably be lightyears ahead.

At least that's my take on tiers and why I believe Raph sucks. Ironically I've been picking up Sieg lately and enjoying him quite a bit.
 
Mandy said:
Granted Raph may be an excellent spacing/poke character, when the game lends itself to more aggressive play, Raph all of a sudden, is no longer as powerful as he should be.
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But that's the thing tho, hes not. NM is better at zoning than he is.
 
Mandy said:
Hey now, Yoda won Evo. I agree a lot with what you said, but when you listed to what a lot of the 'pros' are saying about how the game is evolving, they're talking about how it's more offensive and rushdown then it is defensive. Granted Raph may be an excellent spacing/poke character, when the game lends itself to more aggressive play, Raph all of a sudden, is no longer as powerful as he should be.
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its not that hard...

Take every character and add them broken moves and higher damage...

Than takes raph and remove most his mid (he already had issue with those) and lower his damage even to 1/3 in many moves while obviously making him unsafer, more linear.

Not enough? well simply you can shorten his range, on the contrary of the rest of the cast...and obviously lower other characters long range unsafness so you cannot even punish them with 236B that now is no more a punisher.


Really raph has huge issue that doens t even needs to be tested to see.

Yet i think the game would be better if every character was like raph instead of the opposite.
 
well better than leaving old main because it needs work to win, but failing the same with top tiers...

Also another great constructive discussion by mr synraii.
Those are comments that will make the game and the community better.....
 
Artilust said:
Viola forum Jan2012 - "Omg Viola is so bottom tier she does no damage."

Viola forum May2012 - "Omg all those buffs Viola didnt need half of that."
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And that's why balance patches shouldn't be released shortly after the games' releases. Mostly they can only fail.
 
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