Why did you pick Siegfried as MAIN?

every character has a move that can interrupt 3. Some can do it more brutally than others assuming its a ch (which it genrally would be) but all characters have a i14 move.
 
@endnow

Lows that are hard to see AND advantageous on hit? Yeah, few characters have those.
4B+K is reliable against pokes. Its not as powerful a retreat as X 44B for example, but it does its job. Ive good experience using it against shortrange characters.
As long as were talking about mobility in the sense of options with auto-retreats/auto-sidesteps etc I think hes at least part of the upper field. There arent that many characters that have so many options to slip through your fingers.
Yeah, speed in general is a weakness as he is one of the slowest characters in the game. SCH K trades with i16 after 3 at most ranges, so a+kA would be guaranteed. Its silly hard to buffer on-point in a reactive situation, though. K is always good, 6A does the most damage on NH while being uninterruptable, 6K and 66KA are great when youre sure itll be a ch. When you think hell hold G you could also punish with your own 3.

Other than the obvious unsafety and speed issues I dont see any glaring problems with him.

@Mikey

2A+B has surprisingly effective evasive properties. Im not the kind of guy to just pull stuff from my ass, but if you dont believe my word, thats fine. Just go test it against peoples BB, 3K, 2A or comparable pokes and see what its like.

@onlywingedangel

On the topic of Cassandra. As far as keep-out with Sieg goes, its not meant to last "forever". Actually no characters keep-out games works like that in practice. Rather, its meant as a brick wall they have to pass through before they can get their game going. Unlike at closerange you control the match here and can chip away at their health and soul gauge. Also, I remember saying this before, but Sieg - with all the range he has - is a character that excels in closerange. So playing your range game right is also important for deciding when the fight will be taken to that range.
 
Some other characters moves that are lows, outside of stance, give advantage on normal hit and ch that I find hardish to see or that I found on wiki that was a low that fits the above criteria and is under i19. lets assume a low under i20 is hard to see for arguments sake. i20 is a third of a second true? How many people are really that quick?

Cass 1a,
Voldo 1a, BS 1a, BS 22_88kk, BS 2b and MC b to name a few
Sophie 11_99 a[a]
Hilda 2A+K
Ivy SS 2A+K
Taki 1a
X 1a 1k
Mitsu 2kb, 11_99k, 11_99a, WC 1_3 A+B
Amy 2B+K, 1a (is -1 on block but very hard to see and totally safe so enough to make your opponent think about ducking)
Setsuka 1a, 11_99a
mi na 3A+B, 2A+K and to a lesser extent 1a
Tira JS 2A+B, gs 11_99b and looking at her frames quiet a few Knockdown lows
Talim has her Wind leap delayed A low (dunno exactly how to say it technically) which is forever getting mixed up on me with her respective b and k mids. Even tho this is technically a stance Wind leap is pretty much all she has

IMO these lows are all better than anything seig has outside of stance other than A+K,a,2a which in itself is flawed because its execution (imo again) is motherfucking hard. Sacharja I mean no disrespect but i really dont think im wrong on this one. When I play against Seigs unless he goes into stance Im not tempted to duck.

You can maintain all your other contradictions if you want because wheather 4B+K works or not is purley anecdotal but I can back up what ive stated above with frame data...
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
and what lows does sieg have? 2A+B? Yeah the move is ok with its tech trap possibilities, it TCs (?) and (found out only today) slight stepping properties but I think its very seeable maybe cause i play sieg and ive seen the animation alot but I doubt it since its i28.
1aa is a part of a solid tech trap but again is quiet seeable at i27 and highly punishable on block. I supose 1a could be a decent low becuase if they block it they may expect the second A thus wont punish in time but even if its a ch its still -6 to you :|.
Lets forget about lows that are part of a natural combo like b2a because after having seen the move a couple of times your opponent will block it everytime no problem. 3kkb is a joke.
 
with all the range he has - is a character that excels in closerange. So playing your range game right is also important for deciding when the fight will be taken to that range.
Click to expand...

Really? I thought you said Siegfried was best at mid-range? Now my siegfried is usually played at Close-mid range (mostly close range). Unfortunately that's where Cass and Sophie excell.
 
endnow said:
and what lows does sieg have? 2A+B? Yeah the move is ok with its tech trap possibilities, it TCs (?) and (found out only today) slight stepping properties but I think its very seeable maybe cause i play sieg and ive seen the animation alot but I doubt it since its i28.
1aa is a part of a solid tech trap but again is quiet seeable at i27 and highly punishable on block. I supose 1a could be a decent low becuase if they block it they may expect the second A thus wont punish in time but even if its a ch its still -6 to you :|.
Lets forget about lows that are part of a natural combo like b2a because after having seen the move a couple of times your opponent will block it everytime no problem. 3kkb is a joke.
Click to expand...

2A+B doesn't have solid TC if any at all. It has small backstep that evades mids and lows. a+kA:2A is excellent low, it's punishable and somewhat blockable on reaction, but rewards on hit are superb. +8 on hit is enough for you? On close, you can use 1K, which carries risks on block. However, it's not blockable on reaction so you can mix your mids to encourage them to stand.

A good low-mid mixup is a+kA2A_a+k[A]~SCH to mids. Your low is safe, gives +frames and it's hard to see from mids. Remember that your throws are practically i17 lows, which gives excellent oki and damage when success and +frames when escaped (if I remember correct). Throw a lot, since you have good grap range
 
@endnow

Well, first off most of those lows are actually quite seeable (is that even a word?) on reaction. Also, Amys 1A is certainly not -1 on BLOCK nor safe in general. Second, I never said Sieg has good lows (outside stance). My point was, as long as the character has something comparably good for the same purpose (fast UBs, throws, GBs with guaranteed follow-ups), having no good lows is not necessarily a disadvantage.
Anecdotal isnt the term I would choose. I mean I could list all the setups, show matchvids or just bring in some of my competition to tell you that it indeed works, but - as arrogant as that sounds - I consider myself credible enough for me not to go through that effort, unless someone insists. Or maybe I should finally start working on that Sieg strategy compilation vid Ive planned on making since SC3, haha.

@onlywingedangel

Aaaaah, you caught me. Well, let me rephrase to clarify. Its true that Sieg is best played at midrange (for the obvious advantage at that range he has over the vast majority of the cast), the character itself is most powerful at close- or at least close-to-midrange, though.
 
Conclusion: Sieg has weaknesses, everyone does well maybe except Hilde and Amy.

Thanks to someone online I have learned that B6 can be useful if many of you who have already figured that out

SCH A B6 mindgames are great spacers, as well as 44A.

I must say as I said before

Siegfried's worst enemy, is himself.

Seriously I AM scared of Siegfried mirror matches, its scarier than sophie, algol, amy or anybody you can throw at me!
 
onlywingedangel said:
Btw I didnt see any point in that post other than Fuck Nightmare and SRSH mindgames.
If Siegfried was the best how come there isn't a Ban siegfried thread, there has definetely been some aganist Algol and Hilde, and i think they are already banned...in some areas. None for siegfried? because Siegfried has nothing that makes him overpowered, because there are things that make him fault.

NO one is perfect, If you were like Thugish_Pond or something (well not even Thugish is this good probably) The kind of good your talking about is where Siegfried is winning YET completely safe, which means that Siegfried does no unsafe moves and you would have to know when to do them, and read your opponent like a book for ALL characters. Siegfried is all about risk, Hit and Miss, if your risk suceeds you deal a bunch of damage, if you fail it could be very deadly for you. But most of siegfrieds move take risks, and that is what playing him is all about. You stay safe with moves like 6B or SSH A+B auto retreat, you are not going to win
(1P)
Click to expand...

Hey man its your oppinion and its probably right for most every avarage Siegfried player but Im just trying to tell you guys those weaknesses can easily be overcome they just go against wat u do and how you think. A pro Siegfried is unstoppable cause they wouldnt let any of these issues hold them back, trust me I seen it. I even asked one and he said he never really thought about it lol. Cause he dosent have to, just deal wit it on the fly IF it comes up. The stuff about hilde and algol though yea I seen it and it can also be beating cause its just cheap shit everyone knows and hates but the thing is every cheap tactic has a simple solution. You just gotta pay attention and find out wat it is. I had to beat some of that shit before my self...bad times
 
Hey man its your oppinion and its probably right for most every avarage Siegfried player but Im just trying to tell you guys those weaknesses can easily be overcome they just go against wat u do and how you think. A pro Siegfried is unstoppable cause they wouldnt let any of these issues hold them back, trust me I seen it. I even asked one and he said he never really thought about it lol. Cause he dosent have to, just deal wit it on the fly IF it comes up. The stuff about hilde and algol though yea I seen it and it can also be beating cause its just cheap shit everyone knows and hates but the thing is every cheap tactic has a simple solution. You just gotta pay attention and find out wat it is. I had to beat some of that shit before my self...bad times

Reply With Quote
Click to expand...

Was the pro siegfried Offbeat Ninja? hes the only one.

Weaknesses can be overcome, its true and it does make you a better player. But all weaknesses cant be overcome because new ones will always arise and if a siegfried player has come up with a completely different and effective play-style 100% work aganist all characters than please let him share his godliness.


Hate: Cassandra.

Is it me? or that all the new SC winning phrases are like Hating on the other player?

like Amy's "Words of a loser are meaningless"
or Cassandra's "I win guess this means im the best"
or how about
Taki's "Pathetic"

Man its demeaning i tells ye!
 
*Amys 1a is -1 on hit* Typo my man.

sdnkorento:
You dont have to tell me how good A+K:A:2a is im well aware of it, my only problem with it is i find it difficult to execute every time which is a flaw for me but you can disagree, maybe you can get it out every time and if you can all power to you. That said i dont see how A+K:1:2a is a mix up with A+K:a since they can both be avoided by blocking low. Ive got no problems with 1k I use it alot but since it does minot damage and gives your opponent advantage I dont think many people are gonna think about crouching on prediction for it thus it doesn't give much mixup potential.


Sacharja:
Il start with the posetives by saying ive seen alot of your matches and that you do have credibility with me as a player and Stop procrastinating on that strategy vid! in fact I suggest you start a thread for it so everyone can contribute ideas for it. There are a few Sieg combo vids out there already though.

All those lows are quiet seeable aye? do you think? I put it to you that they are all better than anything seig has. but this is besides the point since you seem to agree with me when i say seig has no great lows outside of stance. I guess the argument is 'is this a weakness'. Well his grabs are both quiet powerful so they could make someone think about ducking so there is merit in your argument but i maintain that if almost every other character has better lows that seig outside of stance then its a weakness in some way but like any other weakness it can be compensated for :-).

4B+K effectiveness you could back up with facts and whatnot? Well not for the sake of argument but more for the sake of people learning from you maybe you could give us examples and descriptions anyway? Its not something you 'have' to do but I feel it would help anyone reading it enough to justify you going to the trouble

Sacharja When I go through a bit of trouble on my posts in an effort to contribute to a disscussion and im met with "Yeeah... not many characters have those" and "those lows are seeable" its got me thinking that maybe your a bit arrogant good player or not. I put it to you that other players with credibility would still generally be less dismissive of someone who is trying to put forward an argument and is backing it up with facts. Thank you sir :).
 
Sacharja said:
Its true that Sieg is best played at midrange (for the obvious advantage at that range he has over the vast majority of the cast), the character itself is most powerful at close- or at least close-to-midrange, though.
Click to expand...
Maybe that is the reason that all my opponents choose to retreat a lot, and I feel more comfortable fighting at mid or close range. Maybe we are thinking in same ways.

-Stryker-
 
You just gotta pay attention and find out wat it is. I had to beat some of that shit before my self...bad times

Reply With Quote
Click to expand...

Okay I got one,

Soloution to a 1-Connection 1A Mitsurugi

Leave Session lol.

In all Seriousness, Siegfried is usually not meant to be played as a Pitbull and although he has his weaknessses and his strengths I kinda see what ZHENKROBIUM is saying in how Siegfried players (as they get better and better) develop their own way of playing rather than sticking to one, This "own" way of playing makes all siegfried players very hard to understand from the opponents view points. Everyone has their different mind games and stance dances. I mean hell one player could only do SRSH K A+B while another could only do SRSH B B4 (Tech-Trap?) This makes Mirror matches very scary for me.

@ZHENKROBIUM: Although Weaknesses can be overcome, a character is A character, now the greatest Siegfried players can make it so they're weaknesses are nerfed so much. But that doesen't mean they aren't invulnerable. you get what I mean?
 
onlywingedangel said:
Okay I got one,


. Everyone has their different mind games and stance dances. I mean hell one player could only do SRSH K A+B while another could only do SRSH B B4 (Tech-Trap?) This makes Mirror matches very scary for me.
Click to expand...

What kind of ass Siegfried player would use SRSH [k] or SRSH b exclusively?? Thats like his textbook mixup you have to use them both to be effective. Il admit to often preferring b over K because its not punished as hard by the people i play against but still gotta use them both
 
@endnow

Haha, please stick to what I said. Not ALL of them, MOST of them. Nobody can block lows like 2KB or 2B+K on reaction consistently - if at all.
I would agree with you on your assessment on his weakness, if all or at least most characters had a comparable throwgame. But few do. So while his lows from neutral really are anything but impressive, the immense range of his throws coupled with their tracking and setup value more than make up for it. What Im trying to say is this. Having shitty lows and an awesome throwgame is better than having average lows and an average/shitty throwgame. For semantics sake you could argue that he does indeed compensate for his shitty lows with his great throws, thus it remains a weakness in that sense. But since that weakness is not exploitable in practice, Id say Im closer to the truth on this one.

Point taken. I will put some of my recent vids in the appropriate thread soon. There wont be that much 4B+K, if at all, I dont remember, but it would be much more demonstrative and helpful then the theorycraft here imo.

I see where you are coming from. Admittedly, I could be more eloborate on some of my points. Let me say, though, that I dont see that many facts in your argument, but rather your personal view on it. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, I do it myself - as seen in my previous post. So when I say "most of those lows are quite seeable", it means *I* can block most of those lows on reaction, consistently. And I expect players of similar or higher skill level to do the same. Point being: They can be better than what Sieg has for all theyre worth, it still doesnt make that big a difference on high level play. So taking everyones favorite hypothetical scenario of two players with the same skill level and anti-character knowledge Siegs throws are a great asset compared to a low that gets blocked (and thus punished) much more often than it hits.
 
@endnow: a+kA2A is low while a+k[A] enter into SCH where you have SCH B and K which are both mids. Hard to block

@Sach: do you have time for Sieg's strat compilation?
 
sdnkorento:
im undecided on a+k:a. Two positive's about the move are that its i15 and on hit combos with SCH [a] or SCh a when near a wall for 30-40 damage. On the down side its just as interruptible on block as 3b at -4 and it can be ducked for even more damage (WR ch for example). I suppose it has its strengths and weaknesses like any move and as a result is still usable at high level play but I personally wouldn't use it as a frequent mix up.

Sacharja:
With reguards to lows being seeable or not. I find that when im familiar with a characters animations (Hilda, NM, Talim, Taki, Astroth, Yun Seong, Kilik, Mitsu, Seig) from having played them alot their 1a like lows become very seeable and in some cases totally useless. Assuming you are familiar with the character (as you do when you talk about high level play) these lows dont mean much and yes you are right. Seigs 1a Will never hit me if im blocking. So i see your point aswell and I appreciate the respect you gave in your last post :P.

gee this thread is becoming a little off topic dont you think?

Lets talk about this strategy vid though Sacharja.
there are already 4 (I think?) combo vids of seig on youtube atm one focusing on agA into a wall (LG would marry that move if he could), one on SBH a into a wall and the other two just on general combos so I think in that area seig is fairly well covered. What did you have in mind for the vid? I have quiet a few ideas for it such as showing BT stance play (SSH A+B is useful in high level play if you get stepped), tech traps, 4B+K, what options you have after a landed 6b or a blocked agA (these both put you at +2) such as 3b, agA, grab, 6b, 4k ect and what to do post GI or Parry. This is just my opinion but to anyone thinking of picking up seig I think a clip like this would be very helpful. Theres a great Mitsu strategy clip out there somewhere That shows situations you can use certain moves in.
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
Oh yeah and dedicate the clip to Warble. He plays seig
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back