Yoshimitsu Combo & Tech Trap Discussion

Signia

[13] Hero
I got a quick question.

Is 1B+K techable after a:B+K ???
No, but you have to be close enough to hit them or else you have to move closer, in which case they can tech it. But, if you're that close you usually can DNK them for more damage. Even if you can't, that doesn't do any more damage than 3B 6K or 3B a:B+K 3B, which are always guaranteed. Only possible use I can think of for doing 1B+K is to push them really far away toward a ring edge or wall. DNK will do the same, but you can't always land that. So, dash-in 1B+K if you think they won't tech and you want ring position?
 

TwoSwords

"The Winquitter"
@Signia

Then I going to use this more, thanks by the way.

I like the fact it has a massive push back when it hits.

I only find myself doing on certain people in the cast that rely close range.

If I need the space the ring position matain the distance with my life lead or if I want to get back in with Flea stance I can do all of this.

It just works with how I play that's all.
 

AvDaniel

[09] Warrior
No, but you have to be close enough to hit them or else you have to move closer, in which case they can tech it. But, if you're that close you usually can DNK them for more damage.
Wait a bit just for clarification, is there a way to guarantee a DNK after earslicer without a wall or ring edge closeby? Or does the dash forward make it impossible for DNK to land?
 

Signia

[13] Hero
To guarantee it you have to be close enough before you launch them. And as I said earlier it's character specific, and I don't know which characters it works more on. Being to their side, you're usually closer. Also, something I didn't mention, you can dash forward or step a bit in between a:B+K for a really minor change in closeness and ringout trajectory, and according to Maxou it can help you land DNK. I haven't seen any difference in success though.

Just read the distance, see how their legs flop, and know the DNK hitbox. In general, I know that it's the right time to DNK whenever they're right in my face when I launch, like after a close whiff after a sidestep or after a JG (since JG nullifies pushback).
 

rudeb0y

[10] Knight
I've been experimenting with some tech traps after 3B a:B+K.

Deathcopter is my main go-to follow-up, or 66A+B if I can read a back-tech. At this point in the game though, anyone decent can usually tech-JG a step-deathcopter, so they will, in my experience, generally tech side JG.. 80% of the time - as it will dodge 66A+B.

But that's just against me I guess, because I have yet to really use or master step-iFC3K.

Can throws in tech-traps still be teched.. or ducked for that matter? Because I really like 6 (delay) 214A+G as a follow-up. Catches front, left and right for 113dmg. Delay is necessary especially to catch right side. I think I'm gonna try this out and see how it goes.

Step 3B also works for these techs for a re-launch but the timing is harder

I also think more 2A+B mix-ups on wakeup, over 4B or 3B+K.

2A+B leaves you at -6 on block. It can probably feel more like -3/4 because of 2A+BB. If the 2nd hit is CH, combos with 66A+B (54 dmg I think). If both hits hit, you are at +11! Although you are far away to really do anything - step 2a:B maybe, against long range chars who might try to use something at that range, or use the frames & space to set-up 66A BE.

Not to mention, hits grounded and can set-up FLEA situations. Useful, as a lot of the time i'm getting people staying down so I whiff 4B. It also breaks in the same as 4B, too.. so this is definitely viable as a 4B alternative / mix-up tool.

Also finding some love for a:B+K outside of combos. Ok, the frames on normal hit are not great and the range terrible.. but the pushback/blockstun seems good on it to set-up a whiff and on CH, big iMCF combos. As an i12 punish it can be hard to use but it's worth trying.. 30 something damage with clean hit, -6 up close in their grill, which isn't too bad place for an iMCF. More damage close range for less frames vs, AA.. other thing is it wouldn't be affected by reduced damage near end of life as it is a 1 hit 26 base dmg move. Great for smashing tech-jumping moves out of the air as well.

On just guard it is -21... so just something to be wary of.
 
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rudeb0y

[10] Knight
The more you know...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjcLMsl9iPMNdDEyNW1PWm5CN0E0VmVVMnVBLXR0ZUE&usp=sharing

Basically, after 3B a:B+K - you can trap left techs with 66A+B on:
  • Alpha Patroklos
  • Cervantes
  • Maxi
  • Mitsurugi
  • Nightmare
  • Siegfried
  • Yoshimitsu
  • Zwei
A severe lack of females.

CE traps right and back on everyone. It traps ALL TECHS on the following for 144 dmg total:
  • Alpha Pat
  • Astaroth
  • Cervantes
  • Hilde
  • Maxi
  • Misturugi
  • Nightmare
  • Siegfried
  • Voldo
  • Yoshimitsu
  • Zwei
So learn who 66A+B works on, then add Voldo, Hilde and Astaroth to remember the CE list :)

Spacing required against some of the cast -however a simple input of 6 before a:B+K seems to solve the issue and make these findings consistent.
 
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Signia

[13] Hero
A tip for dash-in CE that's needed for a lot of tech traps: do the first 236, and take your fingers off quick so that the game thinks you just did a forward tap-dash. Then do 23A+B+K, and CE should come out. This technique also makes it possible to GI CE against Viola's 44A BE.
 

TwoSwords

"The Winquitter"
Playing with shark attack today and found a combo with it !

The combo is :

CH 33B(B+K), a:B+K then tech of your chioce.

The Earslicer is real tight to fit in after the shark combo but it seems well worth it !

I prefer FC K3 after Earslicer cause of how close they land when it hits.

Great damage & extra hype combo
IMO.

Definitely Evo highlight reel worthly !!!
:sc2yos2:
 

Signia

[13] Hero
Huh, never occurred to me to try comboing off of that. People tend to air control this move weirdly since you change sides, so it might be possible to land if you recognize where they're air controlling. It's still really hard to land even if they AC incorrectly though...

CH 33B B+K into BT B seems to be one of the more consistent followups, though it's still worse than 33B 6K. Good for a failure to CH confirm or a committed 33B B+K, I guess.
 

TwoSwords

"The Winquitter"
Questions on CH 66A BE into DNK.

does it only work on certain characters ?

When do I have to input DNK to get it consistently ?
 

Signia

[13] Hero
Questions on CH 66A BE into DNK.

does it only work on certain characters ?

When do I have to input DNK to get it consistently ?
I thought it worked on everybody, but who knows there might be exceptions. You might just be doing it wrong, though.

The right timing is the same timing as when the game decides the stunned player is crouching or knocked down. You need to hit them when they're knocked down, as opposed to most of the other combos where you want them to still be up. So delay DNK a bit, don't buffer it. Doing it too early will make them get hit crouching, and then the second hit of DNK will whiff, resulting in a terrible combo that doesn't ringout. Doing it too late, when they've completely hit the ground, and DNK will whiff. The correct timing is in between the two timings, when they haven't quite fallen down all the way.
 

TwoSwords

"The Winquitter"
I thought it worked on everybody, but who knows there might be exceptions. You might just be doing it wrong, though.

The right timing is the same timing as when the game decides the stunned player is crouching or knocked down. You need to hit them when they're knocked down, as opposed to most of the other combos where you want them to still be up. So delay DNK a bit, don't buffer it. Doing it too early will make them get hit crouching, and then the second hit of DNK will whiff, resulting in a terrible combo that doesn't ringout. Doing it too late, when they've completely hit the ground, and DNK will whiff. The correct timing is in between the two timings, when they haven't quite fallen down all the way.
well I managed to get this pretty consistently with a little practice. It seems to work on everyone in the cast but there are cases that my DNK connects with only two out of the five hits. I think their is a time period where DNK connects with only two hits regardless of size. Even then it still wasn't an issue cause I got the ring out anyway. Still if you needed the extra distance it poses a problem cause it's pretty much a waste of meter imo if you don't get the win.
 

rudeb0y

[10] Knight
I didn't realise this until now, but CE tech traps all directions after 66A+B (at least on Yoshi).

The catch is, you cannot buffer CE - you need the delay.

You can try and get the opponent to tech after 66A+B with another 66A+B, which they have to either tech or take the guard damage..
 

rudeb0y

[10] Knight
I thought it worked on everybody, but who knows there might be exceptions. You might just be doing it wrong, though.

The right timing is the same timing as when ...
Wouldn't it be more consistent - and better, to do ~6 iMCF, 66B, DNK? Will carry further as well. Buffer 6 during 66A CH, makes the iMCF a lot more consistent to hit
 

Signia

[13] Hero
Wouldn't it be more consistent - and better, to do ~6 iMCF, 66B, DNK? Will carry further as well. Buffer 6 during 66A CH, makes the iMCF a lot more consistent to hit
Whatever you're more consistent with. Sometimes I just do 6B BE if I need the range, just to make sure I get the RO. Dropping a free ringout is worse than dropping any combo.
 

Defiance-K

[09] Warrior
So I've been recently testing on how to make 4B, 3B+K, 66A+B, Deathcopter, etc. knockdowns more dangerous.

Delayed 3B.

Delayed 3B is something that we should consider. I have tested this out against all characters (a tedious task), but I would like someone else to try it to see if I'm completely wrong and if I wasted a bunch of time.

First I did some tests to see how many characters can avoid Deathcopter in a standard 3B a:B+K combo with a back ukemi. The results were rather inconsistent for me, as some characters got hit and sometimes they didn't. It seemed that when I held the back button and I teched back, some characters would avoid Deathcopter. When I didn't press back, those characters got hit. The level of inconsistency when I did it is rather annoying, so please correct me if I'm wrong:

Characters who get hit by Deathcopter through a back ukemi:
Patroklos
Leixia
Natsu
Viola
Xiba
Mitsurugi
Maxi
Alpha Patroklos
Pyrrha Omega

Characters who avoid Deathcopter through a back ukemi:
Z.W.E.I.
Ezio
Pyrrha
Siegfried
Hilde
Ivy
Cervantes
Aeon
Nightmare
Yoshimitsu
Voldo
Astaroth

Inconsistent:
Raphael
Tira
Maxi
Algol

I'm sure my results are incorrect, so please correct my mistakes.
With this in mind, Yoshi is completely open when an opponent avoids Deathcopter after a back tech and can suffer huge damage. 66A+B is our back tech catcher.


66A+B Tech Traps (In these scenarios, you will be on the left side; opponent on the right)
*These are done from default distances. You would want to connect as close as possible.
*66A+B is replaceable with 4B, 3B+K and other knockdowns that enable ukemi.

I tried to find some meterless options after a successful 66A+B hit. We have 3B and 4B as our heavy damage options.

66A+B delayed 3B should be implemented if you can get the timing down. It will still connect as a combo if they don't tech, and it will hit if they tech (If you are on the first player side, it will connect and launch if they tech away from the screen. If you are on the second player side, it will connect and launch if they tech towards the screen).
Z.W.E.I., Siegfried, Nightmare and Astaroth will get caught by 3B in all tech directions. Everyone else can avoid it by teching towards towards the screen.

Then we have 66A+B 4B to account for those who really want to tech and avoid the delayed 3B tech trap.
4B (no delay) right after 66A+B will catch those who tech towards the screen. So we have delayed 3B for people who tech away from the screen and 4B who tech towards the screen. 4B will hit all tech directions on these characters:
Patroklos, Z.W.E.I., Leixia, Natsu, Ezio, Raphael, Pyrrha, Xiba, Ivy, Aeon, Tira, Nightmare, Maxi, Astaroth, Algol and Pyrrha Omega.

However, if the opponent decides to just stand up, 4B will whiff and you'll be at -14. We can mix it up with FC 3K, throws, etc. if the opponent does not want to tech.

Combos

With this information, we can create some bizarre combos. For example:
66A+B > (tech) 4B > (tech) delayed 3B > a:B+K
3B > a:B+K > 66A+B (if they teched back) > delayed 3B > a:B+K
3B > a:B+K > Deathcopter (if they tech) > delayed 3B > a:B+K
4B > 4B (tech traps into itself, however they will not be knocked down. You are at +1 if they back tech, +2 if they front tech).
Deathcopter > Deathcopter (if they back teched. Again, they will not be knocked down since you can't seem to use the same knock down in the combo. You are at +9 on hit)
3B > a:B+K > 66A+B (back tech) > delayed 3B a:B+K > 66A+B (back tech) (same premise, you are at -6)
66A+B > delayed 3B > a:B+K

With these options you'll want the opponent to be discouraged from teching. You are then able to do whatever you want. FC 3K, throws, guard damage, etc.

On another note, if Patroklos uses 1K and follows up with an immediate BB, you can avoid the first B by doing nothing and punish him before the second B connects. I would only recommend this if you have some next level mind reading skills.

*I have the data in a crude Microsoft Excel document. I can send it to those who want to test this.
 
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TwoSwords

"The Winquitter"
@Defiance-K

Cool stuff on the tech combos !

Also, could I get the data test it myself if you still have it ?

Maybe you could send it to my Email ?
_________________________________________

I've been playing with 22_88K and I feel like there are a few important things to point out about it. In wall combos 2A+B,B and 1B+K will end the whole combo you've set up. which means DNK is impossible to combo here. To apply DNK with 22_88K you ether have to do it after 22_88K or after a 7K wall slap after the iMCF hits. Both these options deal great amounts of damage about around your standard Yoshimitsu wall combo. The combos below are how to get most damage out of 22_88K combos.

( Note that Jumping K after iMCF is character specific, I will leave a character specifics list below just in case anyone is interested once I've tested it but I've tested it on Astaroth, Pyrrha and Viola. Works on all but Viola. )

Combos

With jumping K W!

22_88K~iMCF~7K~W!~DNK~W!~3B~a:B+K~66A+B

Without jumping K

22_88K~DNK~W!~3B~W!~iMCF~RCC B3~a:B+K~66A+B

I thought this might help people how didn't know how to combo off this. Hope this helps !


iMCF into Jumping K Character specifics list

(Coming Soon !)
 

Defiance-K

[09] Warrior
@Defiance-K

I've been playing with 22_88K and I feel like there are a few important things to point out about it. In wall combos 2A+B,B and 1B+K will end the whole combo you've set up. which means DNK is impossible to combo here. To apply DNK with 22_88K you ether have to do it after 22_88K or after a 7K wall slap after the iMCF hits. Both these options deal great amounts of damage about around your standard Yoshimitsu wall combo. The combos below are how to get most damage out of 22_88K combos.
You can't reuse the same stun in a combo. I would often screw up wall combos because if a 22K hit and I started a wall combo, I would 2A+BB out of muscle memory instead of paying attention. 22K and 2A+BB use the same stun so it will put the opponent into a normal position if they connect. Just like how if your opponent techs twice into Deathcopter, the second Deathcopter will not knock down and will leave you at around +9 on hit. I guess you can try a combo reset if the opponent isn't paying attention, but I don't really think there would be a use in a failed wall combo.