Solo
[14] Master
Thanks for letting me know. I learned something today. xD
Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion
- Thread starter Slayer_X64
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I main Raphael I love em to death but I think its time I pick up another character. What suggestions can you offer me to learn Sieg? Should I just go to training mode an memorize his move list first? Watch videos? For whatever reason im always stuck at the begining when learning a character haha.
Solo
[14] Master
Don't worry about being bad in the beginning, people don't just touch the controller then gain tournament level skill. I would start by learning all of his stances and look at the top ten Siegfried moves thread to give you a push in the right direction. After you learn his good moves and stances. You'll have to practice spacing with them and learn their frames. Then I would learn his combos, I say combos last because spacing and fundamental play are much more important than looking fancy. Hope I helped. :D
J
JustinAkatsuki
Guest
Why does siggy require good yomi to use? I mean I dunno if thats true but I keep hearing that alot=o
Solo
[14] Master
Watch a Sieg player fight and look at how 90% of his hits will be CH. Sieg doesn't have a good way to put pressure on the opponent directly like Nastu or Cervantes. His big damage come from making reads.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Can anyone give me a few pros and cons regarding choosing between nightmare and siegfried ?
Mandy
Yes, a guy.
Nightmare is (fairly) strictly a whiff punisher, he does massive damage off most whiffs, has absurd RO/W! potential, and is arguably easier to play execution wise. Nightmare's moves also have a lot of ambiguity to them, many of them have identical start-ups, or transitions into GSS. Alternatively, Sieg has respectable damage off most whiffs, especially when they are counter-hits, Sieg also gives you some mixups, something NM doesn't really have. In my opinion. while Sieg has decent RO potential near ring edges, he doesn't have as much of a range as NM, and many of his W! combos end up wonky because of how his launcher act.
Most argue that Nightmare is a better character than Sieg; however I find that they're both great characters. If you want to flowchart your way to victory against anyone but the best players, choose NM. If you like swag, I think you know who to pick.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Yeah keep em coming, i'd like to see how you guys actually slot siegfried and nightmare into different niches (not necessarily which one is better).
In terms of ability to zone, keep-away, rushdown , guard crush pressure, grab range/wakeup, meter benefits ?
Solo
[14] Master
Zoning: NM is better because of his superior backdash and larger reach.
Keep-Away: See above.
Rushdown: I honestly don't know. I would say Sieg because he can force mix ups up close better than NM.
GC Pressure: NM all the way.
Grab Range/Wakeup: Their grab range is about the same but Sieg gets more throw damage. NM has much better wake up game.
Meter Benefits: I would say Sieg has better meter options because you can use your BE quite a lot because of his crappy CE. You always have extra, same could be said for NM but to me Sieg has better overall BE moves.
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
They're both good characters. They play differently, of course, but the biggest difference is that people want Nightmare banned/nerf and not Siegfried.
J
JustinAkatsuki
Guest
Dunno about u guys but It's always interesting whenever I see siegfried vs nightmare :D
WuHT
Premium Moderator
aside from the obvious stance frametraps, I always thoguht nightmare was highly punishable while sieg was semi-safe.
Solo
[14] Master
Sieg is a little more unsafe to me because he has less reach and less pushback. Overall though Sieg is only more safe because of crappy stance mix ups.
MKHSpartan
[12] Conqueror
Emphasis on crappy mix-ups lol.
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
Both are zoning characters. NM does this through sheer range and pushback, Sieg through range and speed. Both are equally effective at keeping the opponent at arm's length. Contrary to what many people would have you believe, Siegs lower movement rate is of little consequence outside closerange - and, as far as quickstep is concerned, not even there.
This isn't SC3 anymore (ye golden days of yore!), but Sieg still has much better tools to keep mix-up based pressure on the opponent than Nightmare. Unsafe they may be, but they are still a great way to crack open turtles and they don't need a blinking red bar to start being effective. His poking is also vastly superior.
Guard pressure is Nightmare's domain, though, no questions asked. And his wall damage is retardedly high even without spending any meter. He also has a slew of moves with large R.O.-potential. While Sieg has some pretty nasty stuff in these areas as well, he's not quite as threatening there as Nightmare.
Sieg has the same grab range, a tiny itsy bit more grab damage, but worse wake-up options post grab (due to techability). He's also much more threatening in a crouching position, which rounds out mix-up situations in which he can use his flapjack.
Nightmare has a much better wake-up game. Rolling against NM gets you killed. Rolling against Sieg (in most cases) means you eat a 1K, tech, and reset positioning. Both characters have an easy time getting knockdowns, NM just makes much more off them. As a saving grace, Siegs has way more (and arguably stronger) tech trap options.
Nightmare gets meter extremely fast, but without the prospect of an immediate R.O./wallsplat the immediate benefits he reaps are very marginal. There is his CE, but the whiff recovery and meter cost make its risk/reward fairly disproportional. Sieg on the other hand has rather mediocre (if not slow) meter gain. Yet he becomes a totally different character from 25% meter onwards. Suddenly gambling faster moves against his SCH transitions no longer seems like such a good idea, any whiff inside 3B launch range or launcher-punishable move is up to over 1/3 of your life gone (+ ridiculous R.O./wall splat distance). At 50% meter he can whiff punish you from ANYWHERE. At 75% meter every major mistake is half your life gone.
And while Nightmare has very high meterless damage (and therefore can end rounds rather quickly with a few correct reads), he cannot compete with Siegs top-end meter-based damage outside of wall combos. As such Sieg is arguably a more threatening character during the endgame - at least damagewise.
Something you didn't mention here is reverse-mix-up potential. Both characters excel at this. Nightmares backstep is ginormous, the same applies to his B+K. His CE, while costly and extremely unsafe on whiff, has solid damage and G.I.'s moves of all levels. Siegs B+K is arguably the most powerful anti-horizontal auto-G.I. in the game. Let's see if they are so free about abusing their 2As after they eat a 60% combo for it. 2A+B is a very underrated tool for back-step based evasion, 2_8B+K~SCH B is powerful, if situational, 66A catches the horizontals B+K won't GI and Sieg - unlike NM - also has a number of pretty effective TC moves.
ChaosK
[13] Hero
NM has better range but sieg has 3B
NM has better NH dmg but sieg has 3B
NM has better movement but sieg has 3B
NM has better GB but sieg has 3B
NM has better RO but sieg has 3B
NM has better meter gain but sieg has 3B
NM has better wake-up but sieg has 3B
Thats how i feel about it.
On a more serious note. I'd give Sieg the edge at poking (mainly because of B6) and no one seemed to have mentioned it so far but i think sieg is better at block punishment. Unsafe lows get you punished with WRB and if he has meter he can even start to punish close range mids/highs quite nicely with 66 K BE, he also has B6 which becomes quite effective against other spacing chars like NM due to the big range.
About the meter discussion i guess its a matter of how you look at it. On the one hand you could say that NM is better because he doesn't depend on using his meter, while sieg needs his meter for everything and cant really work without it. On the other hand all of siegs BE's are very good and really improve his game a lot.
About unsafeness, while they are both equally unsafe on their general moveset (sieg even slightly more), the difference between the two is that sieg is not as reliant on his unsafe stuff as NM and can work better with his safe moves alone.
NM has better NH dmg but sieg has 3B
NM has better movement but sieg has 3B
NM has better GB but sieg has 3B
NM has better RO but sieg has 3B
NM has better meter gain but sieg has 3B
NM has better wake-up but sieg has 3B
Thats how i feel about it.
On a more serious note. I'd give Sieg the edge at poking (mainly because of B6) and no one seemed to have mentioned it so far but i think sieg is better at block punishment. Unsafe lows get you punished with WRB and if he has meter he can even start to punish close range mids/highs quite nicely with 66 K BE, he also has B6 which becomes quite effective against other spacing chars like NM due to the big range.
About the meter discussion i guess its a matter of how you look at it. On the one hand you could say that NM is better because he doesn't depend on using his meter, while sieg needs his meter for everything and cant really work without it. On the other hand all of siegs BE's are very good and really improve his game a lot.
About unsafeness, while they are both equally unsafe on their general moveset (sieg even slightly more), the difference between the two is that sieg is not as reliant on his unsafe stuff as NM and can work better with his safe moves alone.
Nightblade
is SUPERCHARGED!!
Sieg may be more unsafe on the surface, but ability to stance cancel (all with different evasive properties) significantly changes the 'safeness' of quite a few moves. We all know this already - just saying that there's a (?) after a lot of Sieg's stuff whereas Nightmare's tactics seem more cut-and-dried for the most part. That said, while I do believe that NM is more solid than Sieg, I also think Sieg has more potential because of that (?).
Shit. Nice post Sacharja. O_o
Shit. Nice post Sacharja. O_o
Bastet
[12] Conqueror
I'm glad to see people picking up Siegfried :D
To start with him, at first you can go to the training mode and then go through every move that is listed at least once.
Then try to find some basic combos for him. Afterwards play against the AI to adjust to his moves/gameplay and make sure that his style is suitable for you. Try to experiment a bit with him.
After those minor first steps you can come here and go through the threads for combos and tech traps, top moves, match ups, videos and frame data. I'm sure they will be really helpful. Also if you have any questions use the Q&A thread
But here's my minor Siegfried guide.
So... Picking up Siegfried:Siegfried is all about stance mix ups, spacing, opponent reading, risk, manlyness etc...
First of all you need to learn his 4 stances: Base Hold (SBH), Chief Hold (SCH), Side Hold (SSH) and Reverse Side Hold (SRSH).
Base Hold
This is the stance that Siegfried holds his sword over him and he is crouching under it. To enter it you simply press B+K. The best thing about this stance in my opinion is the auto guard impact which agis horizontals (mid, lows) as well as some stunquakes, giving you the opportunity to hit your opponent with some damaging combos. So the moves coming out of this stance now. One is SBH K, which has a BE version which can give you extra damage as a combo ender and hits grounded unlike the simple SBH K. Another one is SBH B which is kinda slow but launches the opponent. I usually use this move after the agi works. And the last one is SBH A which is a low sweep but rather slow too. This one is cancellable with 2, which leaves you in a crouch and ready to do some mix ups. However it is very risky as you are free to attacks.
Chief Hold
This is the stance that Siegfried holds his sword behind his back. To enter it you can press 2B+K or 8B+K. This stance has an agi if you are backturned that can surprise the opponent and if you press B you throw him over you, taking much damage and wallsplat him if there is a wall in front of you. Anyway, the moves you can do from this stance are, SCH K, SCH K BE, SCH B and SCH A. SCH K is the fast kick and its BE version is a launcher that can lead to a damaging combo. SCH B is our favourite follow up after 3 (B), very damaging, it has clean hit properties but it is really easy to step. So if you see your opponent stepping use SCH A and if he is close you may be lucky to get both hits and if you hold the A you find your self in Side Hold.
Side Hold
This the stance that Siegfried holds his sword at his right side and you can enter it by pressing 4B+K. It makes Siegfried step back a little when entering it and it is mostly used for whiff punishing. A move that is very damaging for the health and the guard gauge of the opponent is SSH BBB but it is risky and stepable. A low sweep is his SSH AA but I recommend using only the first A if you really wanna use the low; use both if you see that you get a counter hit. If you hold the first A you end up in Reversed Side Hold. And the last move of this stance is SSH K which knocks down the opponent.
Reversed Side Hold
In this stance Siegfried holds his sword at his left side and you can enter it by pressing 6B+K and you end up close to your opponent. The moves from this stance are SRSH A, SRSH B, SRSH K and its hold version. SRSH A is a high step kiler with cool range but people often duck it. The real mixup is between SRSH B and SRSH K. SRSH B is a mid poke that stuns your opponent giving you enough time to land a powerful combo. SRSH K is the low spinning kick and if you think that it will hit it'd be better to use the hold version it end up in SBH and land a damaging combo.
Each stance and move has it's own purpose, but they all offer mixups and they are risky.
Siegfried, however has some interesting, strong tools that every Siegfried player must learn and use properly
Top moves & tools
iagA: Strong stepkiller, possibilities for RO and W!
22_88A: God's gift, stepkiller, ROs and W!s
2A: Stepkiller, combo breaker
3(B): Launcher, -1 on block, leads to SCH, W!, oki
iWSB: Same as above, mind game
iWSAA/iWSAA2: Mid then low, leads to mind games if you cancel with 2, same as SBH A2 situation
B6: Nice fast poke
3K: Makes the opponent think twice
K: i13, Siegfried's fastest move, used for interrupting combos
1K: Oki
All grabs, specially the flapjacks: 50/50 situations, mind games
Just Guards and Guard Impacts: Combo breakers, they give the opportunity to make a comeback and do damaging stuff
Frame Data: Essential
I hope you'll find this quite helpful to start with and I assure you that the more you'll use him the more you'll form your own playstyle, use the strong tools into the best situations, etc. Sometimes though you'll notice that you may need to slightly change your playstyle depending on who you fight but the theory is pretty much the same. It just all takes time, practice and faith.
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
All my posts are nice. The moment my fingertips touch the keyboard, every letter is infused with pure manliness.
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