WuHT
Premium Moderator
the current art director Hideo Yoshie. He's been around for a long time.
Soul Calibur VI: General discussion
- Thread starter SSfox
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Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Yeah, I do think if anyone is going to break through in this manner, it's probably going to be Bangu, insofar as he was pretty well set up for it at various points in the past and he is, at least in an adoptive sense, a family member of one of the main orster characters, which is an archetype they like to pull from at times, for the sake of providing context for a character who is similar but not identical in style to an established moveset. I don't know that his chances are particularly great anytime soon, but if ever there was another established background character promoted to the main roster that made some sense, it would be him, I think.
Well, I'm not sure what a "semi-canon appearance" is, but I'm pretty sure that even if Namco was going to recycle Geralt's moveset into a new character (something I think is highly unlikely in itself), they would definitely not do it by building upon some paper-thin tertiary character, no matter the level of obsession amongst a small number of lore-fixated fans who think every face that ever showed up in the narrative needs to become a playable character. Rather, I suspect they would do what they have always done and give their design team the opportunity to generate a new character who bring a little bit more to the table in terms of what the new game needs. There's nothing particular interesting or intriguing about Salia: she's just a name in a vague, transient support role to Siegfried's narrative, with a correspondingly generic design.
While I will not be surprised if this is ignored as surely as any other time it has come up here, the proper description for Geralt's default weapon is not "long sword". While this generic description has been used by various cultures for any weapon that is longer than average in a given context, when we are discerning between morphologies of medieval weapons (which Geralt's weapons approximate), a "long sword" actually refers to a much more robust weapon that would typically be one which is wielded consistently with two hands and has a substantially longer hilt and blade--an intermediate stage between the late middle age arming swords and a great sword, but being much more similar in length and heft to the former, rather than the latter.
Again, it's all a little fuzzy owning to the fact that "long sword" was often used by many people, in many contexts and languages, as just an in-the-moment descriptive phrase (rather than an established categorical distinction) to describe any sword longer than average to their experience. Which is why modern historians and archeologists mostly eschew such descriptions and use more precise typologies. But when they do use the term "long sword" in reference to medieval weaponry, they are almost always talking about something significantly larger than what Geralt uses, and definitely a weapon that wouldn't be held loosely in one hand, but rather would need to be held in both hands for the purposes of any effective guard.
As far as I have ever been able to determine, the habit of labeling more middling-length swords (that are on the longer side for one-handed European blades and allow for two-handed grips but do not require it) as "long swords" started with Dungeons and Dragons and then got transplanted as a label in fantasy works and games more generally. So I understand why the confusion about the matter is rife in fantasy and gaming communities. But as a technical matter, for those who care about such things, it's not terribly accurate/consistent with how experts describe such weapons.
Again, it's all a little fuzzy owning to the fact that "long sword" was often used by many people, in many contexts and languages, as just an in-the-moment descriptive phrase (rather than an established categorical distinction) to describe any sword longer than average to their experience. Which is why modern historians and archeologists mostly eschew such descriptions and use more precise typologies. But when they do use the term "long sword" in reference to medieval weaponry, they are almost always talking about something significantly larger than what Geralt uses, and definitely a weapon that wouldn't be held loosely in one hand, but rather would need to be held in both hands for the purposes of any effective guard.
As far as I have ever been able to determine, the habit of labeling more middling-length swords (that are on the longer side for one-handed European blades and allow for two-handed grips but do not require it) as "long swords" started with Dungeons and Dragons and then got transplanted as a label in fantasy works and games more generally. So I understand why the confusion about the matter is rife in fantasy and gaming communities. But as a technical matter, for those who care about such things, it's not terribly accurate/consistent with how experts describe such weapons.
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DanteSC3
[14] Master
Like I alluded to right after saying that, I meant the appearances of minor characters in the Quick Battle mode, for both Broken Destiny and SoulCalibur V. Neither of these modes has any story relevance, and is ostensibly just a for fun mode for showing off the design staff's use of the creation system, but in both games, we've had appearances from folks like Hwang, Li Long, Arthur, Salia, Miser, Edgardo, and the like. That's "semi-canon", as far as I'm concerned, like Hwang using Devil Jin style in SoulCalibur V would imply that he'd gone malfested, but since Korea was completely out of the picture for SoulCalibur V, then... what exactly you could call such an appearance is dubious at best.
They've done it before in Aeon from Kratos, so it's not entirely out of the question. Azwel has some Spawn in him, too, and there's Abelia, a bonus character, sure, but she borrowed heavily from Link, as well as the bombs from Chester's style also stemming from Link. If they somehow managed to get the rights for Ashlotte back, taking stuff from 2B would be quite reasonable for her, too. And you, even, have surmised taking stuff from Haohmaru for Arthur, so it's not a completely bizarre concept. They could make a new character too, to be sure, but it's not impossible that they'd repurpose it for an old character either.
I'm pretty sure most of us are aware, it's just also practically colloquial at this point, where the point is understood, even if it's not literally correct.
Fredfredburger
[07] Duelist
I've had an idea of making Bangoo a small fast grappler with a tomahawk and a hunting knife. Conceptually, Rock being Zangief, and Bangoo being R. Mika of Soul Calibur. Also, since Bangoo is not Rock's biological child, it's doubtful that he would inherit Rock's stature or bulk. Visually, I imagined him looking like the east coast people of North America like the Last of the Mohicans.
sytus
[14] Master
I feel like I've got to hammer this point home that the moves Kratos has in BD that are shared with Aeon in SC5 are Calibur originals. Kratos' blades in the main series have always been long range weapons, in fact I'm actually shocked that only a handful of animations made it in from the source material on inspection. The best way I could sum up Kratos' moves in the GOW games is him having 10 hit combos that have the range of Ivy's 4B. Yeah fucking nightmare fuel.
DanteSC3
[14] Master
Regardless of how accurate Project Soul was or wasn't with Kratos's moveset adaptation in Broken Destiny, that's not the point. The point is that they have recycled a guest moveset almost wholesale before, so it wouldn't be unprecedented that they'd do it again. It's not like the animations are licensed to the original character, it's the likeness and the name that are given for the guest character status. Look at Azwel basically being Noctis but with fabulous flair mixed with Soul Calibur and Soul Edge. Not that he's literally using Noctis animations, but the concept is so similar that you could easily see the resemblance. If you take out Geralt's runes and potions, you have a pretty generic sword style, at the end of the day, that has many practical applications for being repurposed, like with Kratos to Aeon, they took out the chains and more Kratos-esque specific stuff where they were left with a mostly generic dual sword style that they retooled for axes.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Right, but that's actually support for the point I was making: in one instance they anchored the moves on to a well-established main roster character, and in the other, they made an entirely new original character. Recycled moves would be nothing new for the series, and nobody is arguing that they would be: it's the notion of bootstrapping these minor characters into the limelight that seems so far-etched and more indicative of wishful thinking of really ultra-fixated lore fanboys/girls than something that's really even remotely likely to happen--that's why I used the fanfic parallel, as it has a similar air of niche-interest wish fulfillment.
Well, I think what I said was that I wouldn't mind seeing that--not that I thought I think it is particularly likely. But at least Arthur would have a genuine history of appearing as part of an offical playable roster supporting the notion that he might return in such a role--caveats (about him being a localization clone in the first instance and a bonus/incomplete character in the second) or not, that's more than one can say for Salia or the other background characters who sometimes get pined for in this regard.
I don't think anybody said "impossible", but there's a pretty massive gulf between "technically not impossible" and "something that we have some good reason to expect"...and Salia is edged up against the first of those things and light years away from the second, is the point. :P
Yeah, i don't know if it was you or somebody else, but the tomahawk has been suggested here in the past, and I think it makes for a good suggestion. Another good option would be the so-called gunstock clubs (these are the angular-curved wooden weapons that you see in the two climactic duels of the afore-mentioned movie). As for Bangu's heredity, I just always assumed from the few broad strokes details we get about how rock ends up in the Americas that he (Bangu) is Algonquian, Iroquois, or from some other tribe of the Eastern Woodland peoples. The name certainly throws a kink into things, but like every other detail here, we have to consider that it is being relayed as a part of not just one of the most historically confused game franchises of all time, but at the very beginning of that lazy world building, twenty five some years ago: Bangu's name sounds like (and almost certainly is) just some random amalgamation of sounds that sounded appropriately "primitive" enough to whoever penned Soul Blade's entire story between two lines of coke five minutes before a staff meeting.
There's not very much other sense to be made of it, nor is it even consistently treated--in Rock's ending in that game, Bangu is decidedly pretty European looking, other than some vaguely "native" looking clothes (that are actually more reminiscent of dress of the Plains peoples, if anything). But presumably if they wanted to bring back and flesh this character out, they would have to do better in this respect: even on the extremely lenient curve that we SoulCal fans are willing to use when evaluating authenticity and continuity, he would still need to look at least a little more appropriate to the role. But getting back to moveset niche and weapon, I think you've hit on a winning formula.
sytus
[14] Master
I don't understand why you want Geralt's moves repurposed though when it would be more interesting for Salia to have her own signature moves. Also isn't she a rapier user?
LisaK
[14] Master
Of all the styles present in SC: BD I think Raphael/Amy's rapier is more suited to what she used as a weapon, as already mentioned Mitsurugi's Tyrfing is basically what she uses, but it was only created during Soulcalibur 5.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
yeah i sort of switch between hand-and-half / bastard sword vs long sword, but "long sword" is easier to type and i'm lazy lol
sytus
[14] Master
Here's a bigger image.
A long sword would look good on the character, but I still think it would be more interesting her having her own signature moves.
A long sword would look good on the character, but I still think it would be more interesting her having her own signature moves.
LisaK
[14] Master
I agree with this, but in my mind Salia Vader would be epic.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Fair enough, and just to be clear: I don't just mention it to be pedantic, but also because we do talk about a wide range of historical armaments here, both with regard to what has been represented in the series to date and things we'd like to see (a topic we talk about with increasing frequency the more energy wizards and shonen emos using impractical concepts as weapons they continue to foist upon us), so I figure its the kind of detail worth highlighting here and there, when the usage starts to become standard in a discussion.
Anyway, I do agree that it's nice to have someone representing this era in weaponry. But the thing is, given the year this story is set in, it actually makes sense that the western canon characters actually prefer rapiers or small swords (that is, 'small swords' in the sense of late middle age/early renaissance 'court swords': epees, epee-de-cour, ect.). Although notably Geralt does have side swords in some of his weapon sets (side swords being a kind of intermediate stage between arming swords and rapiers). It's hard to evaluate where Siegfried figures in here insofar as most of his weapons just aren't even remotely consistent with anything realistic in terms of both their mass/proportions and also in morphology.
None of which is to say anyone should expect any of this to be binding when it comes to Soul Calibur: everything should serve the gameplay at the end of the day, as I see it, and Soul Calibur has so tactically torn up the very concept of historical consistency so aggressively since the very beginning that it paradoxically gets a free pass on everything it does. Because almost anyone still a fan after everything that has come so far have only been able to come along for that ride because they were people who could let go of any sense that it does or could mean anything sensical. Which is not to say that I don't desperately long for them to return to historically-inspired-weapons styles: I just couldn't care less which era they hail from or whether the cultural character representing the moveset is 16th century appropriate. But I do still wonder if maybe they consider Siegfried to be their one nod to a more knightly era of combat, and wouldn't want to replicate an arming sword/side sword style without Geralt as a justification.
I do think the better solution (from a game design stand point anyway) is just to let guests come back when their 'home' franchises are back in the limelight contemporaneous with a new SC game/DLC package. But knowing what I do about IP law and the process of licensing in a context like this, I understand why it hasn't happened to date.
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sytus
[14] Master
Those look like Kendo moves.
Looking into this a bit more of a potential fighting style for Salia, I think she would be super interesting to play if she had a low, medium and high stances with full movement like in this video.
It would operate like Yoshimitsu's stances (8B+K/B+K/2B+K) with moves flowing into these stances. Some of these attacks could have auto guard impacts representing the riposting of the long sword. Even though I've just thought up this on the fly, I do think this would be a better direction for Salia than planting Geralt's moves on her.
Rusted Blade
[14] Master
Seeing that, I couldn't help (unfortunately) thinking about that news media pundit twat who a while back lost his mind over seeing a warrior queen in The Witcher and decided to fight a pitched battle of the culture wars over it by asserting that it was delusional/unrealistic to entertain that a woman could use a sword effectively, and this was somehow a big ol' problem with our entertainment culture that very serious people should be talking about--all of this without a shred of background in martial arts, human physiology, physical mechanics, or historical perspective. He got a shit ton of flack from the HEMA people (and you know, most non-metally-handcaipped persons) for opening his dumb mouth on a topic he knows nothing about, but I have to think the much better solution would have been to put him into a practice room with that young woman there and get footage of just how pathetically fast he tapped out, probably visibly shaking and hyperventilating no matter how easy she took things on him...
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WuHT
Premium Moderator
The biggest offender would be the greek short swords (they're not exactly like the leaf-shaped swords, but similar enough). Leaf shaped swords go hand in hand with the bronze era, but imo any sharp pointy metal is going to be dangerous and effective without breaking immersion.
Will there be stance roulette like siegfried ?
or is it like mitsu with his neutral / mist / relic stances ?
sytus
[14] Master
The only element of truth to the unrealistic argument regarding the sexes is that sexual dimophism does play a roll, in that on average, females are weaker than men on average due to increased height and upper body mass. So for instance, if you had a tribe of 10,000 people, at a rough guess there would be one warrior woman to twenty warrior men and that's across the entire world with our species. Nothing is more evident than having men and women separated in the majority of sports because men would dominate nearly all the top positions. We already see this with trans women smashing it against real women, something that has been causing a lot of controversy in recent years, so it's understandable that you wouldn't see women historically winning in these situations, but that's only because there are no second chances in warfare, you win or you die. Still, it was dumb of him to bring in the unrealistic argument over the Witcher of all games and it doesn't debunk the fact that there are women out there that are the exception to the rule. I'm 6'1", very broad and have a lot of strength for saying I don't work out, but I would never underestimate a trained female fighter putting me flat on my ass with ease.
sytus
[14] Master
Yes. I would have mentioned Siegfried, but a lot of the other characters have stance roulette so it seemed redundant to mention him when I've already mentioned Yoshi.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Zwei:
The one on the left seems to have a pretty modern looking jacket
Xiba?
The one on the left seems to have a pretty modern looking jacket
Xiba?
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Patroklos
outfit is pretty close to final, but I dont think i've seen this one before
**Intersesting they have photo references on the top middle of this
Tira:
Colorful as heck!
outfit is pretty close to final, but I dont think i've seen this one before
**Intersesting they have photo references on the top middle of this
Tira:
Colorful as heck!