1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)
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Hudathan
[09] Warrior
We just didn't know.
She has fairly difficult execution, including her best low mix-up option. Other than that she is very solid.
BatousaiNori
[10] Knight
When you play Something-Unique and see somebody like him nail every JF he offers, proper spacing and great evade moves, you clearly see why Kilik is that good.
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
execution has nothing to do with tiers right?
it is assumed that the characters are being used at full potential, within human limits
Chickenwing
[10] Knight
whatever...amy? with them...? lol FAIL. just because we have damn close matches doesn't mean that your character isn't up there. i just laff @ voldo's SG pressure game. that's what's holding you back sir. Otherwise, don't let that get you down.
*smiles* i <3 you CNP
BatousaiNori
[10] Knight
Thuggish showed just how truly cheap Amy is. Best 50/50 in the game. It's very easy to get in close w/her, and when you are the mixup of 33B/2B+K is just too good.
I'd say Hilde/Voldo/Kilik/Amy/Ivy are top 5 IMO
However, I think we are all going about this the wrong way, as usual. I think we should take the time to break down actual matchups. What tools this char has vs this char. For example:
Astaroth/Hilde IMO is 5-5
Why is it 5-5? Bullrush is just one of the few reasons
How is Kilik/Amy? Does she beat him up close badly? I don't think so. I think Asura can get ANYBODY out of Kilik's face. Command throw to RO is just too beast. It makes you duck the throw, since it's hard as shit to break. Now, you are ducking a char w/great mids. Yet when you play Amy, you have to play her different than anybody else.
We are fortunate to have a game where a year later, we are still arguing top 5 and who's the best. We should base tiers off of matchups, not who does what in tourneys. Hilde seems to have the least bad matchups on paper, which IMO makes her the best. I think Voldo is right after her also, then the debating can begin between Amy/Kilik/Ivy. Astaroth does great against the top tiers also, so he seems to be climbing up.
Discuss
I'd say Hilde/Voldo/Kilik/Amy/Ivy are top 5 IMO
However, I think we are all going about this the wrong way, as usual. I think we should take the time to break down actual matchups. What tools this char has vs this char. For example:
Astaroth/Hilde IMO is 5-5
Why is it 5-5? Bullrush is just one of the few reasons
How is Kilik/Amy? Does she beat him up close badly? I don't think so. I think Asura can get ANYBODY out of Kilik's face. Command throw to RO is just too beast. It makes you duck the throw, since it's hard as shit to break. Now, you are ducking a char w/great mids. Yet when you play Amy, you have to play her different than anybody else.
We are fortunate to have a game where a year later, we are still arguing top 5 and who's the best. We should base tiers off of matchups, not who does what in tourneys. Hilde seems to have the least bad matchups on paper, which IMO makes her the best. I think Voldo is right after her also, then the debating can begin between Amy/Kilik/Ivy. Astaroth does great against the top tiers also, so he seems to be climbing up.
Discuss
Freaky
[09] Warrior
Nobody plays Setsuka because it's much easier to hold a button down for 10 seconds with Hilde and get a ringout or to stand over your opponent and do 50/50s all day with Amy than it is to endlessly practice JF combo execution. She's definitely one of the top characters, but the effort needed to play her is much higher than other top characters.
NinjaCW
[09] Warrior
IMO people fight Hilde VERY wrong with the exception of SU and KDZ. They always had good position and refused to be hit by silly Hilde stuff and just straight out lasted her and beat her. Voldo is top cause he has a million tricks that you're just not gonna be able to block no matter how many times you fight him, it will just happen and you have to deal with it.
Kilik is top because he's just a solid character in general. Great lows, mids, asura, and throws. A good GI and SG game.
I wouldn't say Ivy is top 5 because when it boils down she has to do more than ALOT of characters even when you can do her throw with ease. All she has is pokes and you can just work your way in and some characters severly punishes her verticals if not just rape them. She does have great tricks though and silly reverse N crap that makes you go x_x
Hilde can be contained and we all see it now. I'm excited that people stepped up to the plate and beat that character to show she's not as powerful as some think she is. Which I was saying since the beginning but people just whine for nothing.
I'm still a firm believe of Astaroth being a top character. And if he's not top 5 he's #6. Everyone is free against him. Someone tell me one of his bad match ups please because he out damages every character with single hits, throws, he has good lows. Though he can't punish a lot but he doesn't need to because just being next to him you're in the danger zone.
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This right here is just sad lol. How come KDZ and SU aren't getting RO'd constantly. They played the game and made good choices. Thuggish knows how to pressure very well. Setsuka can do the same thing sadly someone just has to put in the time and she can do the same 50/50's all day if you're good enough to do her JF's. I played against someone who could and it's annoying as hell.
Just learn match ups and play the game.
Kilik is top because he's just a solid character in general. Great lows, mids, asura, and throws. A good GI and SG game.
I wouldn't say Ivy is top 5 because when it boils down she has to do more than ALOT of characters even when you can do her throw with ease. All she has is pokes and you can just work your way in and some characters severly punishes her verticals if not just rape them. She does have great tricks though and silly reverse N crap that makes you go x_x
Hilde can be contained and we all see it now. I'm excited that people stepped up to the plate and beat that character to show she's not as powerful as some think she is. Which I was saying since the beginning but people just whine for nothing.
I'm still a firm believe of Astaroth being a top character. And if he's not top 5 he's #6. Everyone is free against him. Someone tell me one of his bad match ups please because he out damages every character with single hits, throws, he has good lows. Though he can't punish a lot but he doesn't need to because just being next to him you're in the danger zone.
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This right here is just sad lol. How come KDZ and SU aren't getting RO'd constantly. They played the game and made good choices. Thuggish knows how to pressure very well. Setsuka can do the same thing sadly someone just has to put in the time and she can do the same 50/50's all day if you're good enough to do her JF's. I played against someone who could and it's annoying as hell.
Just learn match ups and play the game.
Hudathan
[09] Warrior
That's all correct, which is why I have her fairly high on the tier list. Assuming a robot plays her and gets everything right, the character has enough potential to be considered high.
Astaroth is a beast, the basics are just too strong. Bullrush easily one of the top 5 moves in the game, best throws in the game, big damage, above average spacing and all this with no complicated execution. He doesn't need to be godly like he was in SCIII to be good, I laughed when the game came out and there was talk of him being low-mid. He's definitely on his way up.
Chickenwing
[10] Knight
Amy really doesn't have to fear Asura....honestly. I've shown this to Whodat & rob, i don't recall showing agustin. And i won't bother showing you. Being that i'm always wrong about SC :) Not to say that it's an easy fight with her. Honestly it'd be 55/45 Kilik. but it can easily be 50/50 anyday. Simply because of range, and that is something she can lack.
AGUSTIN
[09] Warrior
Top 10 in my book are:
Hilde
Kilik
Ivy
Voldo
Amy
Setsuka
Cass
Siggy
Mitsu
Asta
Hilde
Kilik
Ivy
Voldo
Amy
Setsuka
Cass
Siggy
Mitsu
Asta
BatousaiNori
[10] Knight
There is absolutely no way Mitsurugi is better than Cervantes. I can MAYBE agree w/Hilde/Kilik/Ivy/Voldo/Amy/Setsuka being better. Siegfried/Mitsu are certainly not. This should have been proven to you by now
SBA
TFNA
There is absolutely NO WAY that Hilde, Kilik, Ivy, Voldo, Amy, Setsuka, Cass, Siggy, Mitsu, and Asta are all better than Talim. NO FUKIN WAY! /uselessness
but seriously tho, y is talim being put in LOW tier? She may be unsafe as hell and have no real damaging moves, but she has great stuns and mindgames....
but seriously tho, y is talim being put in LOW tier? She may be unsafe as hell and have no real damaging moves, but she has great stuns and mindgames....
Tiamat
[11] Champion
Talim haz mindgamez (I wanted this in all caps but 8WR is gay like that)
BatousaiNori
[10] Knight
Her tools, compared to everybody elses's on paper, are very hard to use in high level play. You have to guess a lot more than the opponent, if they use most of the cast in the game.
SBA
TFNA
^^^ but are hertools so hard to use that shes low tier?
D.I.N.O
[11] Champion
Mitsu is a Badass. Anyone that says otherwise is wrong. If 50/50 Throw mixups with Asta can be top tier, then so can 50/50 Mixups with sick damage.
Mitsu hangs with the Big Boyz (Gurls?)
Mitsu hangs with the Big Boyz (Gurls?)
KingAce
HERMITISM
Hilde doesn't win Nats or Evo and now apparently she isn't top any more lol.
Regardless of how RTD and Ceirnian lost, the fact is they could have easily adapted a simple strategy to win. And the only thing that really matters is that they consistantly placed high with Hilde. So she is still pretty much a God.
Algol is top because he doesn't have many bad match-ups to begin with. Just because your character can beat another character doesn't mean your character is overall better.
Amy is better than Voldo and Kilik, she just has better tools, and more favorable match-ups.
Just because KDZ beat two hildes with Cass doesn't make Cass a god, he lost to Malek's Ivy right after, so tiers don't work like that at all.
Regardless of how RTD and Ceirnian lost, the fact is they could have easily adapted a simple strategy to win. And the only thing that really matters is that they consistantly placed high with Hilde. So she is still pretty much a God.
Algol is top because he doesn't have many bad match-ups to begin with. Just because your character can beat another character doesn't mean your character is overall better.
Amy is better than Voldo and Kilik, she just has better tools, and more favorable match-ups.
Just because KDZ beat two hildes with Cass doesn't make Cass a god, he lost to Malek's Ivy right after, so tiers don't work like that at all.
Maxou
[11] Champion
I believe Astaroth is not top tier.
One of his bad match up? Setsuka as an exemple.
She has better tools than him at long range, providing you're a GI happy opponent who know to GI his slow long range tools. His best tool to zone is 66A but she can attack him at a range > than 66A.
She can attack him from a distance superior to his throw range (close-mid range : 214B, 214A, ombrella, 3K, 33B, 1B:B, 3B ...).
Bullrush isn't dangerous for Setsuka, the risk/reward isn't the same, you can happily randomly duck against him because the damage of his bullrush will be negated in one single combo. Providing you know how to step him too, he'll take between BB damage and B+K 61B 44B+K damage hence 86 damage. AND Astaroth can't attack at a disadvantage after bullrush agianst Setsuka... GI is not a good solution either.
He has no tools to prevent her to step at close-mid range appart from 4A... who is high which is dangerous against Setsuka.
He is slow enough to get hit by umbrella or 6K on a lot of occasion. Random exemple : When Setsuka blocks 4, a JF umbrella will hit before 6K and 66K.
Up close he won't be at ease either because 1AAA is too good, 4A is good, 214A is good, throws are very good (well A+G one kinda sucks against him but ... side throws still works though), step is good, and she will punish every unsafe stuff he'll throw (most likely 6K/3A...).
Besides being a big character with a big hit box, Astaroth won't be able to step her that well : 11A, 4A, 214A, BB (tracks), 11B (tracks), 3A, 1B:B (tracks), 214B (will track him after bullrush, and prevent him from attacking at a disadvantage AND you'll stay out of throw range when blocked, meaning he needs to dash in order to do damage), and other stuff...
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