1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Hayate said:
Everyone knows that Kilik vs Algol is for Kilik's favor, still i really think that Algol has better advantage versus a lot's of character. His core gameplay is just on a other level of possibility, it's like pressing at 2D fighting games! And only few character that can shutdown his possibility. The other has a lot's of difficult and it becomes very hard to fight versus Algol than Kilik for these ones.

Where Kilik as a 5-5 there a lot's of character that just can't approch Algol.
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I disagree.

Here's my current opinion of Algol's matchups.

http://www.8wayrun.com/f22/algol-character-matchup-discussion-t4492/#post135548

Out of 29 characters in the game, I feel Algol only has 8 where the matchup is in his favor. And out of those 8, there are only 3 are heavily in his favor. Algol is an extremely overrated character that not enough people have experience with. Once you learn how to deal with the bubbles you realize that his up close game is pretty shitty, especially with a lack of good fast lows, horrible throw range, and no step.
 
that is the most laughable list I've seen in my life

edit: I hadn't even read the whole list when I said that, now it's more like LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
 
Hayate said:
SU:Still even if you disagree or don't understand, how you can explain that i can compete with useless things. I think its still applicable, maybe less effective, but definitly not so worse, and that make it a valid case.
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Good Point! I stand corrected.

On the matter of Algol i'm speechless! I can't imagine Algol's list being that bad.
 
algol is played at probably the most underdeveloped level of any character in the whole cast IMO. he's a new character (yes it's been a year, but a year of barely anyone using him) and plays nothing like other characters so I think he is not well understood even by the people who play algol

edit: posted this in algol forum think it might help people understand the situation
"Problem is no one really mains algol anymore for tournament play. RTD doesn't use algol anymore, I don't go to tournies, tlcrow fell off the planet, so all that's left is ramon and oofmatic, but algol isn't their mains. They tend to switch away from algol after losing one match and that's not the way to develop a character (though it's not their main and in tournament you want to do what will most likely make you win, so it's understandable)."
 
I have to say this about the players ranking list because no one has. It's currently incomplete. Evo has the top 8 in there, but pool play is not factored in and getting 9th or 11th at evo isn't too shabby. Nationals and the secondary post-nationals tournament is not factored in there as well. KDZ still might be on the top of that list, but so might Thuggish or Ceirnian. These three elite tournaments are not fully factored at the moment.
 
Haha, now I understand why I don't like you SU. Probably never will. Lots of other people do though, and that's cool I guess.

You chose to treat the best player in your area like shit, because I said your only tournament win was luck (which over the last 10 months you proved it was). You took it as a personal insult that I said you mashed Asura too much, even though when you first started playing that was 100% true. This is no longer true.

You overreact to conflict, and turn it into a nigga moment.

If you're going to spread hate, at least tell the whole truth. We had 2 MM's, one where I lost to Hilde with Cass in March I think, and right after where I beat her with Cervy. I told him not to post both videos. Post whatever video you feel like if you're gonna try to crucify me for it.

NYC keeps telling me to be nice to you, and I tried. Too much work. Dealing with you is like dealing with a girl constantly on PMS. Sorry Del and Ra.
 
The only tiers that matter are the Q_Q's when people lose to a character better than theirs.
And Hilde.
And Algore infinity bubble power.
 
Maxou: Oh I hear that stuff about "never played a real *insert character*" all the time. I got laughed at by US amy players when I post my gameplay vs Edge, Yoshi players also were saying I never played a real yoshi etc. And you know how it went once I got there. Well, I just hope you dont disappoint me when I get to FR.
 
Okay sir whatever happens in KDZ world and u never seem to have ur details correct. It is what it is we don't have to get along. I'm sure its no harm to either u or me. We can leave it at that.

Moving along I think RTD might ressurect Algol if he was completely unbanned.
 
Belial said:
Maxou: Oh I hear that stuff about "never played a real *insert character*" all the time. I got laughed at by US amy players when I post my gameplay vs Edge, Yoshi players also were saying I never played a real yoshi etc. And you know how it went once I got there. Well, I just hope you dont disappoint me when I get to FR.
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How did it go there? I only watched your vids against Malek at EVO (great vid), and saw the FT5/FT10.

In France, when you say "never played against a real *insert character*" it is to be taken litteraly. There's 5 Setsuka I know in France, one doesn't play SC that much and is more of a Guilty player (Camo), one plays on PS3 (Obi), one just started Setsuka (goodfellas), one plays mostly online (djutin), and me... and not all of them are from Paris and go to paris often.
When I say : I never played against a real Seung Mina, a real Zasalamel, it is true. There is not a lot of players that play those character, and when they do, it is for the fun and not for placing in tournament.

Why would you be disapointed with me? You don't know me and never saw me play... even on vids which is completely irrevelant. I ony said "Setsuka is top tier" and you translate this to "Maxou is top tier"... well no. I stand by my point of view of Setsuka being top tier, but even if I lose to you, the only thing drawing the character back will only be me.

But for the hype of things, looking at that kinghusha vs belial vids when it's close when the guy only starts to play Setsuka, I'll just say that if I go to Paris, I hope YOU won't disappoint me, and although I don't do MM I'll gladly do a FT10 against you and pay you a pizza or a sandwitch if you win :D
 
Nice !
Lots of people are going to want to play vs you Maxou when you come to Paris, you talk so much ! ;)
(and I'm first in line ahaha). I hope you're good !
Belial you are also going to have to stay in Paris several days more than next tournament. Everything I've seen from you shows you're a very solid Mitsu player and a good match is always lots of fun ! As you know MMs aren't very popular in France, so I challenge you FT10 for a home made apple crumble (made by myself, following my mom's legendary recipe) or an apple tart (that's my dad's recipe). Please suggest something nice that you would bid if you loose ahahah


BTW I think Setsuka is top tier too, and if missing JFs (or umbrella tight timing) didn't have such an impact I would play Setsuka as main too instead of little Amy.
 
Maxou: Theres a MM's vs Dreamkiller, Thugish (amys) and HajimeOwari (Yoshi) rec'd and posted on idleminds channel http://www.youtube.com/idleSC4

There should be one vs HymanTyphoon USA Setsuka player, I won that one 5-0 haha.

What I was refering to you shouldnt adress ppl you never played and only judje from vids in a manner of "you dont know what you talk about, you never played a REAL *char name*". b/c its not only stupid but not productive, you cant have a dialogue with a person if you believe he cant comprehend your point, b/c he never had a quality experience. if you think so you'd better just not talk to this person, that is all.
As for Kingusha vids, once again once HymanTyphoon vids are up you'll see what I mean - he's a great player and most likely you'd find him much more "real setsuka" than Kingusha, but fact is Kingusha is exceptional player and I can tell if he got all stuff down he would be destroying me with setsu, but what he can do nobody else can. ^_^ Apple pie or pizza is a tempting offer, I soo want to play with you.

Tresto: you too, get ready all your apple pies! the problem is I'm going to be winning so much I might get fat after I get back from france! ^_^
 
S-U asked me to do this, here is my last chart for Astaroth :

Amy 5:5
Cassandra 4:6
Cervantes 5:5
Hilde 5:5
Ivy 4:6
Kilik 5:5
Lizardman 6:4
Maxi 6:4
Mina 7:3
Mitsurugi 4:6
Nightmare 7:3
Raphael 6:4
Rock 7:3
Setsuka 4:6
Siegfried 6:4
Sophitia 4:6
Taki 6:4
Talim 7:3
Tira 6:4
Voldo 5:5
Xianghua 6:4
Yoshimitsu 4:6
Yunseong ??
Zasalamel 5:5

I really need more experience against Yun, I will not dare comment on that match-up right now.

Vader 5:5
Yoda : ??
Algol 4:6
Starkiller 5:5

For obvious reason, i'm not that sure for those one too :)
 
OMG lols! So much apple pies, pizza, and sandwiches.

Saitoh:

Thanks i'm attempting to keep all the lists a secret until I get all of them then i'm gonna send them back to all three people for double checking and then we will have a tier list finally. Send it to my inbox please! Thats where all the rest of them are. Most appreciated and thanks again!

Maxou:

So what do u believe are Setsuka's best and most practical tools! I'm curious because things like her high damage a:g:B pack a punch but seem useless because its -20+Frames while her B+K is -14-Frames and leads to 86-Damage. If I were to pick her up it would be wise to eliminate a:g:B overall right. Her 1A:A:A is so sweet (46-Damage lol in one shot) but is also -20+Frames on block and even with its slight pushback on the JF version it gets raped hard on block. Her other lows are seeable 2B+K and 11A so for the most part u can't factor those in outside of specific opponent reactions right. Her bA has to be executed at max tip range or else it gets punished at -20+Frames right.

I also realized that if her JF's are messed up. Ex. If her 1A:A JF is messed up she is at -20+Frames with no pushback. If her 1B:B JF is messed up she is at -18-Frames (The second hit can also be GI'ed). If her FC 3B:B JF is messed up she is at -20-Frames (The second hit can also be GI'ed). Her Umbrella either the JF or no JF is -20+Frames but that doesn't matter since its only to be used in combos and punishment right.

Here goes an old Kilik vs. Setsuka vid from Korea from Kura (It shows some of her tools getting GI'ed and punished) This match is a 5/5 not a 6/4.
 
Belial said:
Tresto: you too, get ready all your apple pies! the problem is I'm going to be winning so much I might get fat after I get back from france! ^_^
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Nice taunting I can't wait !
What's your counter offer ? The only Russian food I know of is Blinis...
 
S-U: Just spam 33B and 3B :P both are safe and lead to nice damage on NH and CH. 1AAA may be unsafe, but it's "invisible".

1B:B can be pretty useless VS players who can GI the second hit on reaction (or even aGI...), same goes for FC 3B:B. About ag:b, CheeseOfTheDay likes to abuse this move post step. I always thought it's pretty annoying due TC frames (not to mention damage), of course her B+K is better (kinda on the same level of retardness like her 33B or Hilde's charges)
 
1B:B GI the second hit on reaction? I don't think it is even possible... you can do it on anticipation but on reaction... it's too fast. I like to bait the GI with 1B:B and FC 3B:B in order to get a free B+K if I only do 1B or FC 3B.

S-U :

The Setsu vs Kilik vid says nothing.

I'll send you a PM with some tips and moves.
 
I think it's possible if you can learn to react to white flash. When Setsu does 1B:B, she flashes white before 1B animation ends. But it's not easy. FC 3B:B is easier to GI.
 
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