1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

[BatousaiNori]

ok well i do take back all lows but i will definitely say most lows. if you think cervy's 1k is that amazing that it's notable i got news for you: +1 while in ducking isn't exactly the bee's knees.

honestly, i could give two shits what "top players" agree with. that, and getting endorsements from unknown people doesn't help your argument. "i have heard top japanese players say yoshi is near the top," notice how that doesn't magically make yoshi top tier? "top players in korea would put setsuka way above cervy, and above most characters," notice, again, how that doesn't change the situation? to be honest, those are actual opinions held by members of those communities, but i'm not whipping them out because doing so is stupid.

you think cervy is top tier, so you tell us why he is. using wsA and 1k ain't cutting the mustard either. you're going to either need some great examples or some sort of video proof. the latter doesn't exist because you said before "everyone sucks with cervy". sigh. ok.

Tell you what, I'll PM you. Everybody who has been keeping up w/the tier thread has seen mine entire argument more than once. I'm not going to ring your doorbell on a "Cervantes is Top Tier" Campaign, take you out to dinner and sell you what I'm thinking. I'm trying to keep peoples names out cause I'd rather them speak up vs me speaking for them. If they choose to, cool, if not, doesn't hurt me. And since when do you need Video Proof for Tier discussion? I don't record vids for a specific reason. Vids have NEVER helped me determine who's top tier. Tourney results and char potential in the right hands do. His potential is insane

 

[Maxou]

Eltoshan: If Cervantes hits you w/WS A, he gets one of the best mixups in the game. It punishes a lot of lows also. iGDR by itself makes him top tier, w/out question. It TJ like crazy, and it still TC. For arguments sake, even if it doesn't TC like it used to in 3, you won't find many people who don't think this move is fantastic.

Does Setsuka have a low that puts her in frame advantage? Cervantes 1k is one of the best lows in the game. It sets up 6K if they attack or move. If they stand there, command throw (w/a small break window). Also, he can do command throw from standing, which again, is great. 69 damage and puts them RIGHT at his feet w/him recovering first. Setsuka really doesn't give me a reason to duck.

2A+B on CH also guarantees WS A.

Setsuka's a beast.
Her low aren't that bad IMO. 11A, 1A:A, 2K, 214~2K (extra range and safety) are all good tools.
1K isn't that faster than 1A:A, Cervy's 1K is a very good tool to pressure the opponent, Setsuka's 1A:A is a very good tool to track the opponent, get okizeme or RO him . Differents uses for different characters.
Insane throws (both range, damage, and wake up) and 2K are enough to make opponent duck.
Besides, IMO Setsuka's punishment game is better : i12 JF umbrella, i13 JF umbrella, i14 44B+K (techtrap and KD), i15 WS K/3K, i16 BB, i17 1B:B / 33B.
She has more useful frame traps btw, and better evasive moves.

Although I keep my judgement on Cervantes, since I definitively see he has potential. Just waiting to see a serious one.

I'd like some PM to explain to me for Taki's placement as well, please, since I can't agree with you here.

 

[DrHobo]

......explain please. Yoshi's lows you can block on reaction and has almost no way to get in on somebody. Cassandra is linear as hell and not nearly as spam happy safe as she used to be. Sisters are for SURE not top tier.

Yoshi has no way to get in..... no good lows.....you been fiendin' on the rock, boy?!
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Tell you what, I'll PM you. Everybody who has been keeping up w/the tier thread has seen mine entire argument more than once. I'm not going to ring your doorbell on a "Cervantes is Top Tier" Campaign, take you out to dinner and sell you what I'm thinking. I'm trying to keep peoples names out cause I'd rather them speak up vs me speaking for them. If they choose to, cool, if not, doesn't hurt me. And since when do you need Video Proof for Tier discussion? I don't record vids for a specific reason. Vids have NEVER helped me determine who's top tier. Tourney results and char potential in the right hands do. His potential is insane

Is anyone else tired of the old "If you know how to use it" cop out argument?

Look man if you don't want to post why you think what you do that's fine, you don't have to. But keep in mind that if you don't nobody is going to take what you have to say seriously and they damn well shouldn't.

 

[Ceirnian]

He already posted several times why he thinks Cervantes is up there in the tiers. While I'm not going to say he's #2, I will say I believe he's up there. He has the tools, it's just that his tools take a lot of technical skill to pull off well (at last his best ones).

 

[BatousaiNori]

Yoshi has no way to get in..... no good lows.....you been fiendin' on the rock, boy?!
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Is anyone else tired of the old "If you know how to use it" cop out argument?

Look man if you don't want to post why you think what you do that's fine, you don't have to. But keep in mind that if you don't nobody is going to take what you have to say seriously and they damn well shouldn't.

If you can't block Yoshi's lows on reaction, that's a player problem not char problem. Any top player can block his lows on reaction. If he gets in Dragonfly, duck until you see the B. This is common knowledge. FC 3k you can see on reaction. Reflection A, you can see on reaction also. Am I missing another superior low?

I've posted over and over why Cervantes is good. It gets boring when every week I have to explain it to yet somebody else. Cervantes is not the best. I think he's top 5. I've listed reasons many MANY times. I'll list them one more time, for you:

-aB still punishes a lot of things. Takes off a good chunk too

-The fact you can do the command throw while standing is awesome. It's 69 damage and leaves you AT HIS FEET, while he recovers first. It's the worst possible place to be in

-iGDR. Enough said

-2A+B leads to WS A greatness. WS A, aK gives him one of the best mixups in the game. BT B+K if they move/duck, 3B launch to gun, 3A+B is retarded damage. And that's EASY damage, now try BT B+K, 3B, gun, iGDR. If you duck, BT 2K, 33B guaranteed for 47. That's very good damage and trains you to duck for BT B+K.

-iTP makes him the one true char who can control the match and control space. Nobody else has this.

-aK puts him in BT and is a very useable high.

-1k leads to 6K (only some chars trade, and that's ok cause 6K is more damage). If they block, 1K to command throw or regular throw

-B throw, DC K is 48 damage. However, he's now in BT.

-Covers step beautifully. 3A+B is safe (not as great as it used to be but hey, still works) and 66A is great also. Also, his 2A is better

-WS A, 4KK to Wall is fairly common. The A throw ROs pretty far now too, so it opens up the B throw setups.

-bK is one of the most underrated moves in the game. Puts you at neutral and 3k beats out a LOT of moves. If they try to 2A, I've gotten LOTS of wall splats/ROs w/another bK. Also, if you roll back, 3B Launch is free. So you have to roll to the side or just stand there, either way, I'm recovering first so heads up


Like Setsuka, Cervantes is hard to use. It's a fact, dispute it all you want but it IS a fact, he's not easy. Tiers aren't about ease of use. Cervantes is not popular (unless you are an online scrub, which I'm sure you're not, or at least hope you're not) so again, MOST PEOPLE have not seen a really good Cervantes.

Perfect example to my thinking is Kilik. When the game came out, people tried to say he was good (after the patch) and nobody listened. All this sudden, Kilik/Voldo/Hilde are rocking tournaments and there are your answers. This game hasn't been out a year, lots of people don't have exposure yet, and that's fine. I have almost zero Kilik exposure. I have a good understanding of Setsuka/Hilde/Kilik but since no top players around me use her, how can I comment on them? That would make me a hypocrite, and overall, you have to be open minded, which this community as a whole, let's be honest, isn't.

 

[HajimeOwari]

You're basing your argument on the presumption that Yoshi's entire game (or at least a good portion) is based around his lows, which is just not true. Furthermore, as was previously mentioned, 33B B+K can get you inside. Against longer range chars (i.e. Kilik, Ivy, etc.) 9B+K and 9A+B both can get Yoshi inside if used properly.

If you're going to talk Yoshi, please be more specific. Exactly how do you think a top tier Yoshi plays? Remember, this is a tier discussion. That means each character is played at their absolute best.

 

[BatousaiNori]

You're basing your argument on the presumption that Yoshi's entire game (or at least a good portion) is based around his lows, which is just not true.

If you can't go low, that's a MAJOR problem. And really, he can't. Granted, if you are moving around (sidestepping, 8wayrunning) or are already doing a move, then yeah, it might hit you but Yoshi can't get you on the ground. Have you tried getting in on Cervantes? 2A+B destroys most of his ways of getting in. Helicopter nonsense? Gun. I see NeoRussell from Canada consistently place high w/him over there and I have a lot of respect for him, cause Yoshimitsu is pretty damn hard to use considering again, he really can't go low if the player is paying attention. If you look at Yoshi's full potential, it doesn't measure up to:

Hilde
Voldo
Cervantes
Amy
Ivy
Astaroth
Setsuka
Kilik

Do you honestly believe he's top tier? He is very limited and this is experience from playing a Yoshimitsu player (and beating Yoshis in tournaments)so I'm speaking w/experience. The only char that doesn't need to go low and can win IMO is Taki. If Yoshi's biggest threat to me is his throw game and linear ways of trying to knock down my soul gauge, he's not a threat. He's not a shitty char by any means. But is he BETTER than the people I've mentioned? Most likely not

 

[Ceirnian]

He never said Yoshi was top tier. Also Hajime plays Brian Hates quite abit, it's not like he doesn't have Cervantes experience.

 

[HajimeOwari]

I never said Yoshi can never go low. I said that his game isn't based on lows. FC 3K and 214A both have their moments. If you want to play theory fighter, Cervy can't go low well either. 1K is all you really have. Cervy's 1A is slow, 11AA_B is punishable, and his stance low is slow and blockable on sight.

Regardless, I play Hates on a regular basis. I also play against Cedric, Manta, and Alex.J. I can hang with all of them on a good day. In the end they'll usually come out on top, but I'm not dominated by them.

I'll be honest, and I mean no offense to your opponents, but you just haven't played or seen a solid Yoshi yet. In fact, NO ONE has played Yoshi to his full potential. While NeoRussel may be winning in Canada, it's because a lot of his opponents let him get away with unsafe crap and gimmicks.

 

[Rewind_uK]

God Tier ; Cassandra
A - Amy Setsuka Sophitia Cervantes
B - Mitsu Voldo Hilde Xianghui Killik Yoshi
C - Astaroth Maxi Tira Lizardman Ivy
D - Rest


off top of my head and without much thinking so ive probably messed it up quite abit. my rough opinion though.

 

[BatousaiNori]

I never said Yoshi can never go low. I said that his game isn't based on lows. FC 3K and 214A both have their moments. If you want to play theory fighter, Cervy can't go low well either. 1K is all you really have. Cervy's 1A is slow, 11AA_B is punishable, and his stance low is slow and blockable on sight.

Regardless, I play Hates on a regular basis. I also play against Cedric, Manta, and Alex.J. I can hang with all of them on a good day. In the end they'll usually come out on top, but I'm not dominated by them.

I'll be honest, and I mean no offense to your opponents, but you just haven't played or seen a solid Yoshi yet. In fact, NO ONE has played Yoshi to his full potential. While NeoRussel may be winning in Canada, it's because a lot of his opponents let him get away with unsafe crap and gimmicks.

Well, that's cool you have good comp and all but that's a very bold statement saying "NO ONE has played Yoshi to his full potential". You've played every good Yoshi in the USA? Or outside the USA? If you've been around a while, you're aware TX/Cali have GIGANTIC competition and I've played quite a few solid Yoshis. Players that do all his instant dick punch nonsense.

Cervy's 1k low is all he needs BTW. Of course 1A is slow, if you get hit by that and I just throw it out, you should jump out of the ring.

Canada is pretty solid also. I don't think it's accurate to say his opponents let him get away w/unsafe crap and gimmicks. Your original question was what I think of Yoshimitsu and that's what I think of him, w/out dragging this out and pulling teeth, is he has to work harder than quite a few chars to win consistently.

 

[HajimeOwari]

Nope. I haven't seen one yet. Let me correct that statement since you want to pick apart my words. I haven't seen a person playing Yoshi to his full potential yet. Have you seen everyone else play every other character to their full potential? Theory fighter is great, isn't it?

If you see Cervy using aB, WS A and the non-GB FC A+B and not getting punished, is that Cervy getting away with unsafe crap or not? Vids aren't everything, but if the same person over the span of 4-5 months is using same unsafe crap and not getting punished for it, I call that getting away with it.

You have made it clear that you think Yoshi boils down to throws and linear moves. Which is fine. The game is still young and these tier threads are rife with opinion. I just wanted to see how much you understood.

 

[BatousaiNori]

Nope. I haven't seen one yet. Let me correct that statement since you want to pick apart my words. I haven't seen a person playing Yoshi to his full potential yet. Have you seen everyone else play every other character to their full potential? Theory fighter is great, isn't it?

If you see Cervy using aB, WS A and the non-GB FC A+B and not getting punished, is that Cervy getting away with unsafe crap or not? Vids aren't everything, but if the same person over the span of 4-5 months is using same unsafe crap and not getting punished for it, I call that getting away with it.

You have made it clear that you think Yoshi boils down to throws and linear moves. Which is fine. The game is still young and these tier threads are rife with opinion. I just wanted to see how much you understood.

It's not picking words apart, it's what you said. Nobody has seen their full potential. You haven't SEEN it and hell there are quite a few char potentials I haven't seen myself, so no worries. And yes, tier talk is theory fighter. That's all it is. It's not to say Yoshimitsu can't beat every single char in the cast, it's discussing why he has a hard time or why he doesn't.

I like how you're assuming I don't get punished for aB, WS A and non-GB FC A+B. Can you please find a post where I said they were safe? Or that I don't get punished w/it? Cervantes has to take risks sometimes. aB/WS A isn't a risk if he's punishing something guaranteed, or a whiff. If he's throwing it out, he totally deserves to lose. I'm human, I make mistakes like everybody else, I throw it out sometimes and immediately wish I didn't cause I get lit up.

Now if Neo in Canada is doing that and nobody is punishing him, which unless you have evidence it's happening I wouldn't assume that's what he's doing, or what I'm doing w/Cervantes, not quite sure why you assume nobody else is punishing Cervantes/Yoshi if they mess up. Yoshi doesn't give me a reason to duck. So if somebody doesn't duck, please tell me, what do you do? How do you break their defense? You throw, that's how. You don't throw out a lot that person can see just to get punished, I assume that's not the way you're winning. Just comes down to commons sense really

Yes, if you play against a Cervantes, especially Hates, I assume you are having a hard time. There is only so much Yoshi can do, and I'm surprised you haven't realized it at this point. I'm not saying he's low, or mid low or whatever. He is capable of beating players, of course. You said it yourself, you get plenty of wins and that's good. However, if you take the best Yoshi player against most of the cast at THEIR best potential, it won't be too pretty for Yoshi, IMO of course.

 

[HajimeOwari]

I like how you're assuming I don't get punished for aB, WS A and non-GB FC A+B. Can you please find a post where I said they were safe? Or that I don't get punished w/it? Cervantes has to take risks sometimes. aB/WS A isn't a risk if he's punishing something guaranteed, or a whiff. If he's throwing it out, he totally deserves to lose. I'm human, I make mistakes like everybody else, I throw it out sometimes and immediately wish I didn't cause I get lit up.

Now if Neo in Canada is doing that and nobody is punishing him, which unless you have evidence it's happening I wouldn't assume that's what he's doing, or what I'm doing w/Cervantes, not quite sure why you assume nobody else is punishing Cervantes/Yoshi if they mess up.

My apologies. Let me quote to make things clearer. I was citing Cervy's unsafe moves because NeoRussel is doing unsafe shit with Yoshi all day and getting away with it. This was meant to be an example. There is video proof of this or I would not have posted it. I wasn't citing Cervy or referring to you. Please don't take it personal.

Yoshi doesn't give me a reason to duck. So if somebody doesn't duck, please tell me, what do you do? How do you break their defense? You throw, that's how. You don't throw out a lot that person can see just to get punished, I assume that's not the way you're winning. Just comes down to commons sense really

Sure, throws are a part of it. I also get 2K. And before you say how terrible 2K is, 2K on hit, RCCed into iMCF is fairly strong. Throws are a big part of Cervy's game and 1K. Honestly, our low poke games are similar.

Yes, if you play against a Cervantes, especially Hates, I assume you are having a hard time. There is only so much Yoshi can do, and I'm surprised you haven't realized it at this point. I'm not saying he's low, or mid low or whatever. He is capable of beating players, of course. You said it yourself, you get plenty of wins and that's good. However, if you take the best Yoshi player against most of the cast at THEIR best potential, it won't be too pretty for Yoshi, IMO of course.

Some moves are definite no-nos against Cervy, but it doesn't break his game.

 

[BatousaiNori]

So naturally, I'm in flash chat and Hajime is there. Of course, I'm VERY curious as to why he thinks what he thinks about Yoshi (I'm sure people are tired of 2 people debating anyway) and apparantely he DOES have moves to make you duck/think. I still overall feel he's top 10, not top tier but he's better than I originally gave him credit for. I can man up and admit when I'm wrong about something:)

 

[HajimeOwari]

Cervy does have some innate advantages against Yoshi, so I understand Nori's perspective. >_<

 

[vane505]

Copied your "system" DrHobo.

S: Hilde Algol

A: Amy Voldo Setsuka Kilik Yoshi Xianghua

B: Ivy(Maybe A) Taki Cassandra Cervantes Sophitia Astaroth Siegfried Lizardman

C: Mitsurugi (IMO he has alot of bad matchups. Maybe B) The apprentice Nightmare

D: Rock Yun Raphael Maxi Tira

E: Vader Talim Zasalamel Mina Yoda



Random comments. Will keep it simple:

Mitsurugi has alot of bad matchups. His strenght is his tracking and mixup, but against characters who can punish hard, he's quite underpowered IMO.

Setsuka can be great. 1B:B is a fast, safe mid that combos/RO for good damage. Her ground-game is awesome, shes great at punishing and so on. Her main weakness is that you have to have good excecution. I know that tiers are supposed to represent characters max. potential, but I think it's important to consider that noone will play her perfect. Everyone will miss out her JFs now and then, lowering her damage and safety.

I think Rock is underrated. He's not the old SC3-rock anymore. Great oki.

Yoshi is top when close to the opponent. Great throws, mids and iMCF. His lows are not the best, but his throwing-game somewhat makes up for it. His main weakness is that he has huge problem closing in. His range is not very good.

Cervantes: Not convinced that he is A. I just can't see what would make him a beast. He is just to risky. He gets beaten by characters who punish well. He's good against charactes who doesn't. To be honest, I don't know to much about Cervy, but I really can't see what would make him top 5.

Overall, this game is quite balanced. Only totally useless character is Yoda. This game is most about match-ups IMO.

Another random thought: I've seen many competitive vids with "top" players, and I'm (almost) always amazed on how bad people punish. For some reason, I think that punishing-game is overlooked in SC. It's a shame to see some of the best Voldos and Sophies trying to grab Kilik after a blocked full Asura Dance.

 

[Tiamat]

Nori your idea that characters need good mixup lows to win is just completely wrong. You do not need to make someone block low in order to win.

It is quite helpful if the character has good mixup lows, but it is only NEEDED if you tell yourself that YOU need it.

 

[Maxou]

Tell you what, I missed Cervy's 1K is only +1 on hit (thought it was +5), which really isn't that good as I thought (though it's still good).

Sorry to disapoint you Nori but I now don't see what advantage Cervantes could have compared to Setsuka (and I didn't before).

IMO they're pretty much on equal footing and they are pretty similar on how you have to play them.

Nori your idea that characters need good mixup lows to win is just completely wrong. You do not need to make someone block low in order to win.

I agree completely.

 

[eltoshan]

@Nori, yes Setsuka has lows that are + on NH. 11A is +2 on hit.

I don't see how you think iGDR alone makes him top tier. The range isn't even all that great, can't even hit an opponent from the starting position. Sure it's a fast punisher, but you can't buffer the 214 motion into block stun, so say the ideal person takes 1 frame to buffer 214:B, you still aren't punishing anything worse than i16. Mean while umbrella and the deathfists can be easily buffered from block stun. Like I said in the other post, the TC is non-existent until after the hit frame, it does TJ, but still rather late. It's definitely a great move, but I can't see why you think it alone should make him top tier.

BTW Yoshi's FC 3K is i19, saying that you can block FC 3K on reaction is like saying you can block Mitsu 2KB on reaction. Seriously, can you do that?

Also with the CF system you don't need people to block lows anymore, there's also other tools like frame traps and evasive setups that are just as important as good lows.

Edit: Even if Cervy 1K was +5, step G will make most options whiff.